C/W Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Ässät, Liiga (2018, 3rd, MTL)

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Foppa

Future Norris Winner
Feb 27, 2002
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Ideal pro size and strength, deadly shot, good vision, can flash skills but looks to play a mature game, making good decisions?

Sounds a lot like Rantanen...just based off of descriptions.
 

TheFinnishTrap

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Apr 10, 2012
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Ideal pro size and strength, deadly shot, good vision, can flash skills but looks to play a mature game, making good decisions?

Sounds a lot like Rantanen...just based off of descriptions.

Rantanen is a better skater, but otherwise they are actually quite similar now that you mentioned it. A center version of Rantanen (who might turn into a center) is a very valuable piece.
 

Ippenator

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Rantanen is a better skater, but otherwise they are actually quite similar now that you mentioned it. A center version of Rantanen (who might turn into a center) is a very valuable piece.

Yes, Rantanen today is definitely a better skater than Kotkaniemi today, but the point would be still to compare them both for how they have been as 17 year old's. 17 year old Rantanen was not any better as a skater than 17 year old Kotkaniemi. Rantanen has developed a huge amount with his skating in the last two years. Kotkaniemi might do it too, so lets wait and see...
 

TheFinnishTrap

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Yes, Rantanen today is definitely a better skater than Kotkaniemi today, but the point would be still to compare them both for how they have been as 17 year old's. 17 year old Rantanen was not any better as a skater than 17 year old Kotkaniemi. Rantanen has developed a huge amount with his skating in the last two years. Kotkaniemi might do it too, so lets wait and see...

I remember thinking "wow, this guy can fly and has great hands as well" watching Rantanen in his draft season. Kotkaniemi's skating is fine, but Rantanen really stood out with his skating. Albeit Rantanen was pretty old for his draft year. Might also be nostalgia on my part.
 

kelsier

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Yes, Rantanen today is definitely a better skater than Kotkaniemi today, but the point would be still to compare them both for how they have been as 17 year old's. 17 year old Rantanen was not any better as a skater than 17 year old Kotkaniemi. Rantanen has developed a huge amount with his skating in the last two years. Kotkaniemi might do it too, so lets wait and see...

Rantanen was a lot better skater coming into 2015 draft than Kotkaniemi is today. He took a giant leap with the wheels at the off-season prior to the draft year. I remember well cause it was something I hadn't seen maybe ever from another highly touted Finnish prospect (Rantanen was barely an average great skater in the early age). Kotkaniemi doesn't come close to his speed back then. That of course doesn't mean he couldn't catch up going forward. As for complete play, it's too early to say but I really liked what I saw this year and last year.
 

Ippenator

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Rantanen was a lot better skater coming into 2015 draft than Kotkaniemi is today. He took a giant leap with the wheels at the off-season prior to the draft year. I remember well cause it was something I hadn't seen maybe ever from another highly touted Finnish prospect (Rantanen was barely an average great skater in the early age). Kotkaniemi doesn't come close to his speed back then. That of course doesn't mean he couldn't catch up going forward. As for complete play, it's too early to say but I really liked what I saw this year and last year.

Could be that Rantanen's top speed was a bit better in his draft season, but even if it was, the difference for sure was not very big. And I'm practically sure that there was really not much of a difference with their first steps, as Rantanen for sure was only mediocre with them, as Kotkaniemi is at the moment. But neither of their strengths as a 17 year old were/are skating. Both of their strengths at that age were/are hands, hockey IQ and size & strength.

I see a lot of similarities with them for sure, but I also see quite a lot of similarities with Barkov and Kotkaniemi. I know many say that no, Kotkaniemi can't be compared to Barkov, but I say that lets rather see how this season goes for Kotkaniemi, as for sure Barkov made huge progresss exactly in his equivalent season, and anyway his skating was for sure not at least better than Kotkaniemi's. Most probably Kotkaniemi is in that area ahead of the 17 year old Barkov. I would still really like to see this season to the end before saying whom Kotkaniemi could be really compared to. I anyway like him and his potential very much.
 

kelsier

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Could be that Rantanen's top speed was a bit better in his draft season, but even if it was, the difference for sure was not very big. And I'm practically sure that there was really not much of a difference with their first steps, as Rantanen for sure was only mediocre with them, as Kotkaniemi is at the moment. But neither of their strengths as a 17 year old were/are skating. Both of their strengths at that age were/are hands, hockey IQ and size & strength.

I see a lot of similarities with them for sure, but I also see quite a lot of similarities with Barkov and Kotkaniemi. I know many say that no, Kotkaniemi can't be compared to Barkov, but I say that lets rather see how this season goes for Kotkaniemi, as for sure Barkov made huge progresss exactly in his equivalent season, and anyway his skating was for sure not at least better than Kotkaniemi's. Most probably Kotkaniemi is in that area ahead of the 17 year old Barkov. I would still really like to see this season to the end before saying whom Kotkaniemi could be really compared to. I anyway like him and his potential very much.

Now you're just being wrong or don't remember well. Unlike you said, Rantanen's process with the skating didn't start at the NHL but it had already begun in the FEL. During the season 2014-15 he was not only a good, but a great skater for his age. If we added in the size equation, I'd say he was elite. Had very little time so I just checked his highlight vid, which normally is pretty bad when you're looking for details. Skating is one aspect that leaves little room for questions however. So let me illustrate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uktW7vjfFQ0

See the clips at 4:55, 5:20, 8,50, 9,55, 11:40, 12:00. The underlined cuts are where he practically is flying past the defense. The others parts underline his overall skating - first steps, agility, balance and so forth. This was Rantanen between age of 17-18. I'm sure there's more and the vid didn't include the international games either. What's so unique about it all was the fact that just year before Rantanen was an average skater at best. So far I haven't seen anything alike from Kotkaniemi and I seriously doubt the fact that he has Rantanen's speed or overall mobility on the ice (in age to age comparison). That's not to say Jesperi isn't a good skater (especially what comes to agility & balance), but rather that they weren't at the same level which at the moment seems pretty obvious for those who've kept an eye on both. Kotkaniemi is far closer to young Barkov in that category than Rantanen.

I never understood your criticism about Rantanen and talking about him like he wasn't a grade A prospect anymore than when you elevating other young promising Finnish forwards into an entire different category. In general I've agreed about most things you've said, but in this case I think you got it wrong from the get go. Personally I never understood how it was possible for him to fall that low in the draft, because he had everything you'd want in a player, size, speed, IQ and elite tools. #8 was the latest I thought he might slip. Guess some teams hesitated about his goal scoring ability and viewed him more as a playmaking winger, but scoring doesn't seem to be a problem for the kid. An absolute steal for the Avs and I hope that Jesperi turns out the same (not to mention ending up as a center). I do see some Barkov in him as well.
 

Ippenator

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Now you're just being wrong or don't remember well. Unlike you said, Rantanen's process with the skating didn't start at the NHL but it had already begun in the FEL. During the season 2014-15 he was not only a good, but a great skater for his age. If we added in the size equation, I'd say he was elite. Had very little time so I just checked his highlight vid, which normally is pretty bad when you're looking for details. Skating is one aspect that leaves little room for questions however. So let me illustrate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uktW7vjfFQ0

See the clips at 4:55, 5:20, 8,50, 9,55, 11:40, 12:00. The underlined cuts are where he practically is flying past the defense. The others parts underline his overall skating - first steps, agility, balance and so forth. This was Rantanen between age of 17-18. I'm sure there's more and the vid didn't include the international games either. What's so unique about it all was the fact that just year before Rantanen was an average skater at best. So far I haven't seen anything alike from Kotkaniemi and I seriously doubt the fact that he has Rantanen's speed or overall mobility on the ice (in age to age comparison). That's not to say Jesperi isn't a good skater (especially what comes to agility & balance), but rather that they weren't at the same level which at the moment seems pretty obvious for those who've kept an eye on both. Kotkaniemi is far closer to young Barkov in that category than Rantanen.

I never understood your criticism about Rantanen and talking about him like he wasn't a grade A prospect anymore than when you elevating other young promising Finnish forwards into an entire different category. In general I've agreed about most things you've said, but in this case I think you got it wrong from the get go. Personally I never understood how it was possible for him to fall that low in the draft, because he had everything you'd want in a player, size, speed, IQ and elite tools. #8 was the latest I thought he might slip. Guess some teams hesitated about his goal scoring ability and viewed him more as a playmaking winger, but scoring doesn't seem to be a problem for the kid. An absolute steal for the Avs and I hope that Jesperi turns out the same (not to mention ending up as a center). I do see some Barkov in him as well.

I had only now the chance to go through the video that you posted, and I have to honestly say that it didn't change it one bit how I see how Rantanen was as a skater during his draft season. Those examples show a big sized player with pretty ok top speed, but also quite average first steps. His edgework was pretty good though for such a big player. His real strengths in that video are really the great hands and magnificent puck protection that he has when he starts cutting towards the goal. He also had already then a lot of strength in general and also power in his skating. Just the explosiveness and even top speed were still pretty far away from what he managed to have during his season in the AHL. Especially in the springtime in the men's WHC he was practically flying on the ice compared to the video that you posted. I am claiming that the time when his skating really developed a lot was around that season.

I do still see Rantanen slightly overrated by some Finnish posters especially, but I do admit that he has improved himself a lot and I do think of him much higher at the moment than I thought about him over a year ago. I do still see at least Laine and Aho as a tier higher as young and very talented Finnish players. Probably Barkov too, but with him I'm a bit on the verge.

My problem with Barkov and Rantanen has been their certain kind of softness and passiveness. For sure I don't mean any lack of strength, as they both are really strong young players. It has to do with the certain lack of intensity and especially the killer instinct more consistently. I think both have improved with it though. I still see that Laine and Aho are much more impressive players with those qualities. And even with most of their skills I see them at least by some margin more impressive. And this doesn't really mean that I'm not impressed by Rantanen's and Barkov's skills too.

To keep the topic still with Jesperi, I would say that I see his potential at best somewhere around Barkov, or Rantanen, whom I see still by some margin below Barkov as a player. Of course I'm talking about his probable ceiling. His floor would be then clearly lower.
 
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kelsier

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I had only now the chance to go through the video that you posted, and I have to honestly say that it didn't change it one bit how I see how Rantanen was as a skater during his draft season. Those examples show a big sized player with pretty ok top speed, but also quite average first steps. His edgework was pretty good though for such a big player. His real strengths in that video are really the great hands and magnificent puck protection that he has when he starts cutting towards the goal. He also had already then a lot of strength in general and also power in his skating. Just the explosiveness and even top speed were still pretty far away from what he managed to have during his season in the AHL. Especially in the springtime in the men's WHC he was practically flying on the ice compared to the video that you posted. I am claiming that the time when his skating really developed a lot was around that season.

I do still see Rantanen slightly overrated by some Finnish posters especially, but I do admit that he has improved himself a lot and I do think of him much higher at the moment than I thought about him over a year ago. I do still see at least Laine and Aho as a tier higher as young and very talented Finnish players. Probably Barkov too, but with him I'm a bit on the verge.

My problem with Barkov and Rantanen has been their certain kind of softness and passiveness. For sure I don't mean any lack of strength, as they both are really strong young players. It has to do with the certain lack of intensity and especially the killer instinct more consistently. I think both have improved with it though. I still see that Laine and Aho are much more impressive players with those qualities. And even with most of their skills I see them at least by some margin more impressive. And this doesn't really mean that I'm not impressed by Rantanen's and Barkov's skills too.

To keep the topic still with Jesperi, I would say that I see his potential at best somewhere around Barkov, or Rantanen, whom I see still by some margin below Barkov as a player. Of course I'm talking about his probable ceiling. His floor would be then clearly lower.

If that's "ok" top speed for a huge 17 year old kid, then I'd really love to hear definition for "high end" top speed. While speaking of a draft eligible kid who's already faster skater than an average grown up FEL player, I certainly wouldn't be saying "yeah he's kinda okay". Anyway, Rantanen was significantly better skater than Barkov for example and I never considered Barkov to be bad or even slow skater. He was good skater especially with the size variant added into the puzzle. You can see (that is if you chose to) that Rantanen wasn't only a rather fast skater but he had an excellent skating technique, edgework, agility and even the first steps were good. Now we agree about his skating improving over time, but you claim he made the leap after his FEL year which is wrong and this makes me wonder how much have you really watched him (considering all the negative talk). Because if you had really followed the guy, you'd know that he became a skater during the summer leading to the season of 2014-15 instead of after. Everyone who's followed him acknowledges that. Before that he just looked awkward every time you saw him on the ice and he had some serious problems keeping up with the tempo in FEL or even at international level against top countries with fast players. Yeah, of course Mikko has refined his wheels ever since he jumped across the bond and managed to improve even more, yet that's not the point. This is on a daily menu of every other hockey prospect or player in the makings.

Now as for Kotkaniemi, I've been watching him from last season onward, along with the games in Hlinka this year and the two games in FEL. He's not even close what comes to overall skating when compared to Rantanen, and by not close I mean it's not even a contest. I'm not going to expect to see him invent the wheels or motor on his third game either. That's just not going to happen. These kids develop on their own pace and when you have frame to fill it tends to take longer. Kotkaniemi could very well end up an excellent NHL skater one day. That said, from the forwards, Puljujärvi and Rantanen are the only noteworthy Finns (with size) I've seen of late who were really able to really skate while still being draft eligible. Laine was never slow (quite the contrary) but he has/had catching up to do, due to all the missed off-seasons.

Anyway not to derail further, Jesperi was pretty invisible today. One assist that got taken away because a team mate tapped the puck in above shoulder, at least according to referees. Think he might be one of the guys with calm transition and really heat up after the WJCs.
 

TheFinnishTrap

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He didn't get a lot of time with the puck today. Seemed like his linemates kept hogging it and could rarely distribute it to Kotkaniemi successfully. When he did get the puck, he was pretty effective, getting a shot on goal in the first period and then creating that chance that resulted in an overturned goal.
 

Qurpiz

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Kotkaniemi's been moved to 3rd line with Kuparinen and Insam for todays game.
I think they made that move in last games 3rd period. Lähteenmäki, who's been red-hot, was swapped to his spot.

Whilst it's too bad he's been moved down from the 2nd line (Laganiere - Suoranta), this could turn out better. Kuparinen will take care of the defensive side, all Jesperi needs to do is feed Insam. Or score himself.

4 and a half hours to puckdrop!
 

kelsier

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The line wasn't clicking and Jesperi seemed to disappear for long stretches. Could be a good thing they are shuffling while in general being demoted isn't considered in much of a positive light. Anyway, does anyone know why Kokkonen isn't in the lineup today? Last time it was Vesalainen missing and now Kokkonen? What's with this curse!
 

TheFinnishTrap

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Ässät seems to be completely inept at creating and sustaining possession. Their gameplan apparently consists of players trying to either rush the puckup all by themselves or dumping it in and praying one of their players is going there.
 

Qurpiz

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Kotkaniemi with an assist in 3rd. 3-2 for Ässät.

Otherwise, not a very strong game from him.

EDIT: Now another. Even when he and his line isn't playing particularly well he's racking up points.
 
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TheFinnishTrap

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It's amazing how effective he is when he just gets the puck. It seems that every time he gets it, a chance follows. I can see the Barkov comparison in that he is not aggressive and selfish enough.
 

Qurpiz

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And now he scored. I'll just shut up about the rest of his game.

1+2 today.
 

Ippenator

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2+3=5 in only three games and tied for the league lead in points as a 17 year old undrafted player. He seems to be as talented as I was hoping that he could be. Of course it is early season. But I definitely am starting to think that the Barkov comparison might after all be legit. And not only because of their styles, but also the potential as 17 year olds.
 

kelsier

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This kid is just so damn effective and that shot is something else. He does the little things right, has excellent instincts and ability to read the game. Also while Jesperi doesn't always look super dynamic, he seems to have ability to create something out of nothing. Big bodied guy with excellent balance. Reminds me of more offensive-minded Barkov. Three points today.
 

TannedBum

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Really happy to see another hometown youngster turning some heads. Armia is gifted and turned out solid bottom6 NHLer. This guy is something else. Pure magic.

More offensive-minded Barkov. I think that's pretty much correct at this moment.
 

Gsus

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Me and my buddy were shooting pucks at local rink about 4-5 months ago and saw him too. His shot didn't look that good back then (we actually had a laugh about it) so I'm pleasantly surprised of how good of a shot he has.
 
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