Breakfast of Champs
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- Apr 15, 2007
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Joe Thornton wasnt exactly a stud either as a rookie and he turned out fine. He was also being developed the "wrong way" according to a lot of people at the time.
C Tyler Seguin (2010, 2nd overall, Boston; traded to Dallas)
- Thread starter Henke333
- Start date
Spot on.
Agreed.
Shhhhhhh.... HF is no place for logic and rational thinking.
Almost as awful as OP.
Most NHL ready? That is a lie. Bob McKenzie said he would not be NHL ready, Hall was widely considered the most NHL ready.
Duchene would be a 3rd liner on Boston just because he is more rounded than Seguin, Tavares wouldn't have made the team his first year, Schenn and Hall are stupid to compare because they are totally different positions, and saying Hall is "laughably" and clearly better than Seguin is just wrong. Putting Fowler and Skinner as guys you would draft ahead of him is just as dumb. Is Sergei Samsonov laughably better than Thornton (Joe, to clarify)? No, not one bit. It's really not even close whatsoever. Take a look at their post-draft seasons, though. If the draft was redone today, I would STILL draft him first overall, as I would have back then, and I would have still kept him in the NHL with Boston for the simple reason that he is better served getting experience here than dicking around in the OHL.
I doubt Boston would deal Seguin for the 1st overall in this draft, any one from last draft other than possibly Hall, and I think you need to look at other 18 year olds in comparison before he's a bust. Look at Jason Spezza. I'm sure you would have thought he was destined to be a bust too. The last time a top team got a top prospect was Spezza to Ottawa, and just like Seguin he had trouble breaking in. That did not, however, preclude him from being a PPG player in his first 500 games.
Good post, I think the Spezza/Seguin situation is different but you make other good points.
Tough to say.
Due to his performance, he certainly won't be getting a gigantic raise right? So that is a good thing I guess
I feel though burning a year off is no big deal in the long run, he went through a lot of bumps and bruises which all rookies do, rather him do it sooner, than later... so he can be more effective player for the Bruins sooner, than later.
Wow...
Niagara is stacked though, they have 2 guys who possibly can be drafted in the 5, definetly top 10.
There was no one for Segiun to play with on Plymouth.
Niagara 2010\2011- 273 goals for and 5 guys in top 50 points for OHL
Plymoth 2009\2010- 245 goals for and 2 guys in top 50... with Segiun being one of them.
Sorry, this post is just plain wrong, your comparing individual stats but leaving out teammates and their production.
Bad argument/point being made here.
ozhenson
Registered User
- Jul 26, 2007
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Just a quick reminder, Skinner was never considered to be in the Seguin/Hall debate. He was seen as a level below the top 2. Sure, he had a phenomenal rookie season, but nobody could have seen that as probable. I still say Seguin has the higher upside of those two.
Boston made the only move they could make. The only issue that can be had now is whether or not they handled his development properly.
That's what Seguin boosters were saying last year. Apparently, all he needed was to join a "stacked" team and he'd show EVERYONE how much better he was than Taylor Hall. Well, Seguin's fans got their wish, and it turns out he can't even beat out Shawn Thornton for a roster spot.
Meanwhile, Hall scored as many goals as Seguin had points despite playing in 9 less games.
That's what Seguin boosters were saying last year. Apparently, all he needed was to join a "stacked" team and he'd show EVERYONE how much better he was than Taylor Hall. Well, Seguin's fans got their wish, and it turns out he can't even beat out Shawn Thornton for a roster spot.
Meanwhile, Hall scored as many goals as Seguin had points despite playing in 9 less games.
Did they??
Look at his linemates...
I wouldn't call Boston stacked either... nor would I call Gregory Campbell, Dan Paille and Shawn Thornton skilled players which bring the best out of Segiun...
However, the trolls will continue to pound their drums.
BronxBruin
Registered User
Too bad you're forgetting an important piece of the equation -- how much time they actually spent on the ice. Despite his 9 less games, Hall played 280 more minutes than Seguin this season including 77 more minutes on the power play.
Oh, gee, you also forgot another slightly important piece...who they played with. Seguin played most of his time with the likes of Ryder, Peverley, Kelly, Campbell, & Thornton...hardly offensive juggernauts. So while the Bruins may have been "stacked", Seguin's line was far from it.
Did Hall have a better rookie year? By a mile.
Was Seguin rookie year disappointing? Sure.
Does this mean he is a bust or his development was "ruined"? Go ask Joe Thornton how much Pat Burns ruined his development.
The fact of the matter is that players develop at different rates so the B's will gladly hang onto Tyler and we can check back in 5 years to see if they should have chosen Skinner or Fowler instead then, OK?
was hf boards around in early 2000s? i mean the Sedins must have been criticized as well but look at whats happen time and experience sheesh its in the culture there are thread for 2014 drafts and threads on 21 and under year olds being busts shoot man
BronxBruin
Registered User
They only had 29 & 34 points their rookie years...therefore they were and are complete busts regardless of how many MVPs they may win. Don't you know anything??
Kevin Malone
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- Jul 3, 2009
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Hall also played quite a bit on the PK as one of Windsors top PK guys.
Windsor also roled 4 lines and 2-3 PP lines which greatly reduced Halls ice time.
Need I remind people when Seguin tied Hall for regular season scoring last year, his coach left him on the ice for the last 5mins of the game while Plymouth was up and the also pulled their own goalie just to get Seguin tied with. One of the shadiest things I've ever seen.
All this while Hall was being rested going in to the playoffs. To say that Hall was robbed is an understatement.
I told these boards a year ago that Seguin wasn't ready to be in the NHL while being ripped on by all the Seguin lovers. I saw the kid play 50-60 times in the OHL and it was the same theme game after game. Coach Velucci would constantly match Sequin up against 3rd-4th lines so Tyler wouldn't have to worry about playing defense. Tyler never played the P.K. so he would be the first one over the boards as soon as it was over playing against inferior competition.
Then you have the 2min powerplays and my favorite 2/3rds of his points being scored at home when his coach was able to match lines.
I don't care if he had 106pts last year. This idea that he had nothing to learn by going back to junior is absolutely ludicris. You don't learn to play a two-way game in the NHL you learn to play it in junior. Hall spent much of 09/10 in Windsor working on his two-way game and playing against other teams top lines while Seguin was padding the score sheet.
He should have gone back to junior. Who ever said he was the most NHL ready prospect last year is off their rocker.
VincenzosOil
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- Nov 2, 2008
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No offense K. Malone but you seem a wee bit biased. You bring up some good points but I have a hard time believing all the pro scouts and scouting agencies wouldn't have picked up on that. And at the end of the day, he was still rated top 2 and in some cases #1.
As for sending him back to junior, tough call. I'm sure the decision to keep him wasn't made lightly but staying with the B's isn't exactly detrimental to his development.
But really, the premise of this thread is ridiculous. I think most here are smart enough to realize that you don't judge a pick after one year. Saying the BB's were wrong for taking Seguin is just plain silly. I'm a Hall fan but look forward to see how Seguin developes over the years.
As for sending him back to junior, tough call. I'm sure the decision to keep him wasn't made lightly but staying with the B's isn't exactly detrimental to his development.
But really, the premise of this thread is ridiculous. I think most here are smart enough to realize that you don't judge a pick after one year. Saying the BB's were wrong for taking Seguin is just plain silly. I'm a Hall fan but look forward to see how Seguin developes over the years.
Kevin Malone
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- Jul 3, 2009
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First of all I am not saying the B's shouldn't have taken Seguin. I am saying that he should have been sent back down. All of my points were explaining my point of why Hall was NHL ready and Seguin wasn't.
The point I am arguing is those on here who look at Seguin's 106pt season last year and assume there is nothing left to learn. Some of the points I raised on here were pointed out to me by scouts in what were some red flags about his game.
I should find the thread from last year in which I pointed out the eerily similarities between this and the 1998 draft of Lecavlier vs Legwand.
Lecavlier was the front runner while Legwand caught up to him. Legwand came out of no where scoring 105pts(for Plymouth) while Lecavlier kept up his steady upward trajectory. Lecavlier states were "inflated" because he was on a good offensive team with other treats, while Legwand was more of a standout. Needless to say the rest is history.
I know some on here will say I am biased and they are free to do so. The fact of the matter is that I have seen Seguin play more than 99% of the people on here. Do I think the kid is a great player, absolutely. Do I think there is many on here with rose colour glasses that simply point out point totals while glossing over other difficencies, of course.
So let me get this straight: Hall playing on the better of the two OHL teams means he had a benefit over Seguin, but Seguin playing on the better of the two NHL teams means Seguin is at a disadvantage to Hall.
You're right about there being a troll in this thread, but I have a feeling you've fingered the wrong poster as the perpetrator.
leafsfuture
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- Mar 30, 2008
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Have to come on the record and say you were right about Seguin. I still think he will be a stud. I mean you cant see his offensive awareness is very high. I do think that he should have been returned to junior, as he would have a much better team, the WJC, and he would get his 3rd year of junior.
How do you compare him to Strome, or for that matter even RNH?
Kid Canesten
Registered User
just reading through a couple of these posts and im flabbergasted. this has literally become a "what have you done for me lately" thread. just because carolina needed skinner and anaheim needed fowler to log more minutes does not instantly make them better prospects than seguin. it literally came down to the wire as to who edmonton was taking first overall.
while theres still a chance seguin might not be the player everyone thought he might be, theres still a chance he does. and all the people saying he couldnt beat thornton for a spot, well to all you geniuses out there, who becomes the enforcer of the team? chara, lucic and horton are too important to be stuck in the penalty box. thornton is there as an enforcer, which every team needs.
while seguin did have some bumps and bruises along the way, no one could have predicted within the first 10 games that campbell would have been a decent 4th liner and that kelly would have been acquired. that is why seguin stayed. boston felt he didnt have to prove himself in the chl and because of technicalities, he cant play in the ahl.
jeff skinner wasnt even pegged to go in the top 10, yet pundits known as hf boards believe that he should've gone 2nd overall. fowler, while he slipped, was not in consideration for the top 2 picks. hall and seguin were considered elite talents which could not be passed up. boston would probably not trade seguin for edmonton's first overall, thus making pretty much more valuable than anyone in this draft. prospects take time to develop. boston is deep down the middle. how do people not see this?
while theres still a chance seguin might not be the player everyone thought he might be, theres still a chance he does. and all the people saying he couldnt beat thornton for a spot, well to all you geniuses out there, who becomes the enforcer of the team? chara, lucic and horton are too important to be stuck in the penalty box. thornton is there as an enforcer, which every team needs.
while seguin did have some bumps and bruises along the way, no one could have predicted within the first 10 games that campbell would have been a decent 4th liner and that kelly would have been acquired. that is why seguin stayed. boston felt he didnt have to prove himself in the chl and because of technicalities, he cant play in the ahl.
jeff skinner wasnt even pegged to go in the top 10, yet pundits known as hf boards believe that he should've gone 2nd overall. fowler, while he slipped, was not in consideration for the top 2 picks. hall and seguin were considered elite talents which could not be passed up. boston would probably not trade seguin for edmonton's first overall, thus making pretty much more valuable than anyone in this draft. prospects take time to develop. boston is deep down the middle. how do people not see this?
Wheatking
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- Sep 25, 2006
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I watched both Hall and Seguin online last season quite a bit and this is bang on. Nothing biased about it. Pretty much just facts.
I didn't watch Seguin's last game of the season so I can't confirm that the goalie was pulled for the final 5 minutes but I have heard that from a few people. However, I did watch the Spitfires second last game of the season. Hall was pretty much benched for the 3rd period. He got maybe 2 or 3 shifts because they were saving him for the playoffs. He didn't play their final game of the season. It was obvious that the scoring race wasn't the team's top priority.
...and if you wanted proof that Hall went head to head with the oppositions best players while Seguin was matched against weaker competition, you really just had to watch the Windsor/Plymouth series. When the games were in Windsor Hall and Seguin were on the ice together. When they were in Plymouth they weren't. Unfortunately for Seguin, the Spitfires had so much depth that he was still held pointless.
As for ice time. Their average ice time was probably similar but that was only because Hall played on the PK. 5 on 5 and PP time wasn't even close. Usually it was Hall's line that would draw the penalty so a lot of times he would come off the ice and then only play the final 30-45 seconds of the PP if the 2nd PP unit didn't score. Seguin would be out there for the full 2 minutes a lot of times. Even strength was the same sort of deal. Seguin would get tons of ice time because he was the Whalers only real offensive threat. The Spitfires had two 1st round picks on their 2nd line so Boughner didn't have to worry about not having Hall on the ice.
So yeah...it was more than just less games played that made Hall's 106 points more impressive than Seguin's.
PlayMakers
Moderator
The Sedin's, Patrick Marleau, Eric Staal, Pavel Datsyuk, Zach Parise...
Fwiw, the Bruins say the reason they kept Seguin up was to teach him what it takes to play the pro game, against men. The size, the strength, the determination you have to have in board battles, the fortitude it takes to stand in and make a play knowing you're going to get hit by a 6'4" 240lb linebacker.... Seguin himself has said that it's his biggest weakness. The B's say they knew it would be a trial by fire for him, but that he'll be better for it. Time will tell. There were certainly games where he looked like the B's best forward.
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Zach and Slater
Registered User
El Nino you sound like an Oiler fan who is bitter that the Bruins didn't trade him to us. Nothing against you bro, but that's how it comes off.
Speaking of that, I said it then and I will say it now...the Bruins should have dealt that pick because they are a win now team. I'm not saying they should have dealt it for nothing, but they should have dealt it for pieces that would be helping out now because it's quite clear the organization is expecting to win. They likely could have got a proven front line player and moved some salary in the process like Michael Ryder. It's just further proof that you must have a direction. You either go for it or you don't. I know there are exceptions to this rule (Anaheim), but the rule is you pick a direction. The Bruins didn't do this. By the time Seguin starts becoming that impact player Chara and Thomas will be past there prime. It doesn't make sense to me.
But since they made the pick Seguin was the right pick. They are knobs for keeping him on the team. He had a lot left to accomplish in Jr (chase an OHL title, go to the under 20's). It's terrible that he has been getting put on the 3rd and 4th line, or being healthy scratched so much this season. But hopefully this doesn't ruin him and the B's get that impact player there fan base deserves. Sorry for being so harsh to your management B's fans, I'm not a Chiarelli fan at all.
Speaking of that, I said it then and I will say it now...the Bruins should have dealt that pick because they are a win now team. I'm not saying they should have dealt it for nothing, but they should have dealt it for pieces that would be helping out now because it's quite clear the organization is expecting to win. They likely could have got a proven front line player and moved some salary in the process like Michael Ryder. It's just further proof that you must have a direction. You either go for it or you don't. I know there are exceptions to this rule (Anaheim), but the rule is you pick a direction. The Bruins didn't do this. By the time Seguin starts becoming that impact player Chara and Thomas will be past there prime. It doesn't make sense to me.
But since they made the pick Seguin was the right pick. They are knobs for keeping him on the team. He had a lot left to accomplish in Jr (chase an OHL title, go to the under 20's). It's terrible that he has been getting put on the 3rd and 4th line, or being healthy scratched so much this season. But hopefully this doesn't ruin him and the B's get that impact player there fan base deserves. Sorry for being so harsh to your management B's fans, I'm not a Chiarelli fan at all.
BlueSinceBirth
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2006
- 621
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Joe Thornton
97-98
55 games 3+4
Sergei Samsonov
97-98
81 games 22+ 25
Obviously 18 year olds need to be judged their first year in the league LOL.
97-98
55 games 3+4
Sergei Samsonov
97-98
81 games 22+ 25
Obviously 18 year olds need to be judged their first year in the league LOL.
And also one of the main reasons we drafted Hall was because he seems like a team player. When asked in the interview about being drafted by the Oilers, he said he wants to bring a Cup back to Edmonton, whereas Seguin seemed to just want to be drafted 1st overall, caring only about himself. Hall is a player you win championships with, I'm not sure I see that drive or commitment from Seguin. He's a skilled player, but he seems like a diva.
wedge
Registered User
Thornton's argument has been brought up several times in defending Seguin's case and it's the best one.
A "bad" rookie season at 18 doesn't make a bad career. Seguin is learning. Carey Price was sitting on the bench last year in the playoffs and it only HELPED his development.
I'm not scared about Seguin. He's going to be a lot better next year with more ice time.
A "bad" rookie season at 18 doesn't make a bad career. Seguin is learning. Carey Price was sitting on the bench last year in the playoffs and it only HELPED his development.
I'm not scared about Seguin. He's going to be a lot better next year with more ice time.
