C Rasmus Kupari - Karpat, Liiga (2018, 20th, LAK)

[JK2K]

Good skill.
Anemic stats at pretty much every level.
Smallish stature to be a 200 ft Center.
Position has changed.
Winger maybe.
Not a top 20 pick.

 

[TheFinnishTrap]

Good skill.
Anemic stats at pretty much every level.
Smallish stature to be a 200 ft Center.
Position has changed.
Winger maybe.
Not a top 20 pick.

This could have been a haiku:

"Good skill but bad stats
Too small to be a center
Not a top prospect"

 

[JK2K]

Just the facts

 

[FinPanda]

Just the facts

Another Finn hater?

I don't think Kupari is top 20 pick either, just because I've seen you just hate Finns. Not even one positive comment.

 

[JK2K]

“Good skill”, is not a positive comment?
Just because I said he’s not top 20?
Good player not too 20, especially at C.

 

[Habs76]

I think Kupari will bust. Lacks the hockey IQ to succeed in the NHL.

 

[Hockeyisl1fe]

Where this hate is coming from? I don't understand. Lots of raw potential and skating is superb, what's not to like?

 

[Hockeyisl1fe]

Just the facts

No, they weren't.

 

[JK2K]

What hate? Get the emotion out of it.
Good player
Good skills
But......
No stats in any year.
Not a true C at NHL level
First rounder-yes
Top 20-no

 

[Hokinaittii]

What hate? Get the emotion out of it.
Good player
Good skills
But......
No stats in any year.
Not a true C at NHL level
First rounder-yes
Top 20-no

He was almost PPG last year in U-20 league and would probably be PPG in Mestis if he continued to play there this year. Also, I bet his point total in Liiga would see an increase with him getting some PP time. His stats aren't that horrible although not the most impressive ones out there considering his hype. But as we all know, it's not always about the stats.

I don't think you can say the kid can't play C in NHL at this point. Gotta remember we have guys like Trochek playing C in the NHL. You don't have to be 6'2 anymore to play C in NHL. Also, Kupari seems to do quite well in faceoffs since his average FO% is 63,1 in Liiga, something you don't see very often for a player that young.

I was bored and put quickly something together from his two games after returning from WJC.



I don't get the hate for this kid, other than him being the one who dethroned Kotkaniemi from the WJC squad. I feel like the hate only increased after that.

 

[NotProkofievian]

He was almost PPG last year in U-20 league and would probably be PPG in Mestis if he continued to play there this year. Also, I bet his point total in Liiga would see an increase with him getting some PP time. His stats aren't that horrible although not the most impressive ones out there considering his hype. But as we all know, it's not always about the stats.

I don't think you can say the kid can't play C in NHL at this point. Gotta remember we have guys like Trochek playing C in the NHL. You don't have to be 6'2 anymore to play C in NHL. Also, Kupari seems to do quite well in faceoffs since his average FO% is 63,1 in Liiga, something you don't see very often for a player that young.

That's his FO% for January. It's about 48% overall, which is still pretty good for a 17 year old.

I was bored and put quickly something together from his two games after returning from WJC.



I don't get the hate for this kid, other than him being the one who dethroned Kotkaniemi from the WJC squad. I feel like the hate only increased after that.

Thanks for the video. I didn't catch the Lukko game, but it looked like he had a good game there too. The HPK game was the best game that I've seen him play.

I don't see much hate for him. I'm pretty skeptical of him. He needs to show some specific things before I want to pick him with my dreadful team's first round pick. He didn't show them in the HPK game, but that game was good enough that I'm still keeping my eye on him.

 

[kelsier]

Thought he was still in Mestis so missed both the games. That drive at the net and then nearly finishing the play with the wrap around was nasty but it was his back-checking and willingness to engage on the boards that impressed me the most. His skating is on another level and I don't remember when was the last time I saw someone this young with this kind of speed in the league. Makes everyone around him look slow. Not only is he fast but he's agile and can execute plays at high speed. I don't get all the critique towards this kid at all. He's only 17, hasn't got the best possible opportunity to thrive in the FEL due to playing in a stacked team and yet is still doing quite well. Also 5"11 isn't exactly small and do we even have any data pointing out towards stalled growth?

I'm still half-mad at Ahokas for not giving him a proper chance at the WJC. Some games/minutes here and there instead of using him at the top six (or elsewhere) Ahokas was instead rotating the two top six centers where one could score goals around the net, but didn't do much else and the other being outright anemic from the start until the very last missed SO.

Now that he's back I'll tune in for the next Kärpät game no doubt about it. He's going to be at another level come U18 WJHC. Top 15 pick at this point I'd say with room to climb up.

 

[Ippenator]

Thought he was still in Mestis so missed both the games. That drive at the net and then nearly finishing the play with the wrap around was nasty but it was his back-checking and willingness to engage on the boards that impressed me the most. His skating is on another level and I don't remember when was the last time I saw someone this young with this kind of speed in the league. Makes everyone around him look slow. Not only is he fast but he's agile and can execute plays at high speed. I don't get all the critique towards this kid at all. He's only 17, hasn't got the best possible opportunity to thrive in the FEL due to playing in a stacked team and yet is still doing quite well. Also 5"11 isn't exactly small and do we even have any data pointing out towards stalled growth?

I'm still half-mad at Ahokas for not giving him a proper chance at the WJC. Some games/minutes here and there instead of using him at the top six (or elsewhere) Ahokas was instead rotating the two top six centers where one could score goals around the net, but didn't do much else and the other being outright anemic from the start until the very last missed SO.

Now that he's back I'll tune in for the next Kärpät game no doubt about it. He's going to be at another level come U18 WJHC. Top 15 pick at this point I'd say with room to climb up.

Well, if you want to look at it simply from the production aspect, the problem with him is simply that he has not produced at a top level way against his peers, and that is a pretty big problem after all, as it has been going on already for many seasons. One pretty good production in a Hlinka-tournament will not change much in this, especially as most of the points came in one game against a weaker opponent

But even without any statwatching I at least don’t see him having even close to the top level hockey IQ. He just doesn’t seem to make plays with his passing. For me it is really low class hockey IQ, if you just buzz around with your skating and can’t create great chances to your teammates with it. All that speed is pretty much wasted if you can’t really use it effectively for real playmaking, which I’m expecting especially from him, as he is supposed to be a center.

I’m pretty tired of watching this kind of players, as I have been now watching in every game for already last two seasons a speedster like Ehlers in the Jets play like that. They are immensely frustrating to watch, when they can very well bring the puck up to the offensive zone, but then they just run around there with their speed until the play dies in their stick or through a bad pass, because they are unable to pass well when speedskating all the time.

Ehlers at least has a pretty good shot and a knack for scoring goals, but I don’t unfortunately see Kupari having even that. And if you compare Kupari to Ehlers at the same age, Kupari is not even close to the production that Ehlers has had. Ehlers was a first rounder and a similar speedskater, although not a center, but I still see a point in comparing them at least for some parts. Kupari is just so far from Ehlers’s class that it isn’t even funny. And as many might know, I don’t much really like Ehlers, because of his clear inability in playmaking, and the blinders that he has on when he is constantly speedskating.

 

[kelsier]

Well, if you want to look at it simply from the production aspect, the problem with him is simply that he has not produced in a top level way against his peers, and that is a pretty big problem after all, as it has been going on already for many seasons. One pretty good production in a Hlinka-tournament will not change much in this, especially as most of the points came in one game against a weaker opponent

But even without any statswatching I at least don’t see him having even close to the top level hockey IQ. He just doesn’t seem to make plays with his passing. For me it is really low class hockey IQ, if you just buzz around with your skating and can’t create great chances to your teammates with it. All that speed is pretty much wasted if you can’t really use it effectively for real playmaking, which I’m expecting especially from him, as he is supposed to be a center.

I’m pretty tired of watching this kind of players, as I have been now watching in every game for already last two season a speedster like Ehlers in the Jets play like that. They are immensely frustrating to watch, when they can very well bring the puck up to the offensive zone, but then they just run around there with their speed until the play dies in their stick or through a bad pass, because they are unable to pass well when speedskating all the time.

Ehlers at least has a pretty good shot and a knack for scoring goals, but I don’t unfortunately see Kupari having even that. And if you compare Kupari to Ehlers at the same age, Kupari is not even close to the production that Ehlers has had. Ehlers was a first rounder and a similar speedskater, although not a center, but I still see a point in comparing them at least for some parts. Kupari is just so far from Ehlers’s class that it isn’t even funny. And as many might know, I don’t much really like Ehlers, because of his clear inability in playmaking, and the blinders that he has on when he is constantly speedskating.

Statistically speaking when you are looking into some crazy numbers from Finnish jr leagues those tend to come from the JrC and with the lesser amount in some cases depending on the individual from JrB. Sure, Kupari hasn't lit the world on fire with his production but I wouldn't go as far as saying "playing vs peers" as for instance this year he is 17 and playing against adults. Last year (Kupari 16yo) was playing half a season against U18s and another half against U20 while either being a minor or what, triple minor in those leagues. 15 year old Kupari was nearly on PPG pace in the U18 league. So he (like many others top prospects) have always faced a higher level of competition than other players of the same age. Now sure, from a future first round pick or a super talent's point of view those numbers may still not be that flattering, but if we look past this season his skating was noway near the level it is today nor do I have a clue what kind of support cast he has had while playing in the juniors. If he was even close to the skater back then as he is today those numbers would look a whole lot different. He took a huge jump last summer, even bigger than I saw from Rantanen entering his draft year. It's about development curve, some kids are more mature at younger age than others. It might be fair assessment to say that he doesn't belong to the category of being all that ready all too soon. It isn't how you played in the year 20xx, but how you play the game today.

I don't base my assessments on one Hlinka game. I've actually watched him play in the league this season and the two games I mentioned are probably the only two that I have missed. Now while we are on the same frequency more times than not, I think you have some tendencies of being hasty casting these judgements, Rantanen being one recent example (that we argued about). Being a fast skater =| having bad hockey IQ. I haven't seen those signs but if you have and you can point out instances that you think are somewhat "alarming" I'd be happy to hear and have a look.

As for Ehlers, I've had my own doubts about his hockey IQ due to all the games I've watched him (around a hundred by now from the last two years alone). He scored tons of points in the QMJHL during his draft year, but it's impossible to tell what Kupari could have done should he have played in the NA this year. If/since he is already mature enough to play against the grown ups, you would expect him to do a lot better against other juniors out there. As for their age to age production otherwise and before the respective draft years, I'm not sure how much stocks I would put on Ehlers dominating some jr leagues in Denmark. Was the country even playing against the best nations in the international stages at those days?

Anyway as I said before, Kupari hasn't played in a role this year in FEL that would have allowed him to be on the spotlight, but I'm liking what I'm seeing so far, especially from those clips from his last games. Speed is a huge asset while alone it doesn't carry you too far. If that was all that Kupari had to offer, I wonder if he would be even playing JrA today. He may not be a top10 pick but he could turn into a top 5 player drafted at 2018 when all is said and done.

 

[Albatros]

Kupari versus the best of his own age in juniors:

2017/18
U20 under-18 PPG
1.44 N. Nordgren
1.37 K. Kakko
1.12 L. Killinen
...
0.64 R. Kupari


2016/17
U20 under-17 PPG
0.98 N. Nordgren
0.88 J. Kotkaniemi
0.85 H. Nikkanen
...
0.64 R. Kupari

U18 under-17 PPG
1.67 N. Nordgren
1.55 L. Aaltonen
1.44 M. Maccelli
...
0.81 R. Kupari


2015/16
U18 under-16 PPG
1.00 N. Nordgren
0.95 R. Kupari
0.92 A. Nevasaari

U16 under-16 PPG
2.59 L. Aaltonen
2.23 A. Haatanen
2.18 K. Hirvonen
...
0.75 R. Kupari

 

[Ippenator]

Kupari versus the best of his own age in juniors:

2017/18
U20 under-18 PPG
1.44 N. Nordgren
1.37 K. Kakko
1.12 L. Killinen
...
0.64 R. Kupari


2016/17
U20 under-17 PPG
0.98 N. Nordgren
0.88 J. Kotkaniemi
0.85 H. Nikkanen
...
0.64 R. Kupari

U18 under-17 PPG
1.67 N. Nordgren
1.55 L. Aaltonen
1.44 M. Maccelli
...
0.81 R. Kupari


2015/16
U18 under-16 PPG
1.00 N. Nordgren
0.95 R. Kupari
0.92 A. Nevasaari

U16 under-16 PPG
2.59 L. Aaltonen
2.23 A. Haatanen
2.18 K. Hirvonen
...
0.75 R. Kupari

This exactly underlines perfectly what I have been talking about. And this also does not confirm the jump in Kupari's play for this season, which was claimed by kelsier to have happened. He just does not produce well, and that is in my opinion due to his average hockey IQ, especially average for making good and smart plays at the speed that he is skating at.

This is exactly the problem with so many speedsters and this is also why I easily have quite a big dislike towards this type of speedsters. Even McDavid is having occasionally problems with making smart and productive plays for his teammates when he is blazing at the speed that he does. So when guys like Puljujärvi, Kupari or to some extent even Ehlers are constantly speedskating with a much more average "computer" than what McDavid has, it will lead into their hockey IQ looking maybe even worse than it is.

Why I love so much Aho as a player is exactly because he knows how to slow down the play and not skate like a madman every time he gets the puck. But he can sure also skate really fast and well, which some people have not realized mostly because he is not using his full speed constantly. Smart players don't have to play in that way, it's just simple like that.

And to still get the picture of how insanely talented Aho was already when he was one year younger than Kupari is now:

Season 2013-2014 (Aho was still only 16 the whole season, while Kupari is 17 now)
in B-junior's (U18) 2 played games 3+3=6 points
in A-junior's (U20) 44 played games 25+34=59 points (ppg 1,34 which is over twice better than a year older Kupari's 0,64 so far this season)

And even despite pretty darn good numbers as a 16 year old, he was not considered as a sure first round pick. Well, for Aho one thing was that Finland was absolutely crap in his draft year's WJC and he also produced 0 points there, so I think that had still a big part in him slipping to the second round.

But honestly in Kupari's case speed is clearly making people blind. I really dislike the way how hockey has turned into overvalueing skating way too much over the much more important skills like smart play, great passing and shooting and efficient goalscoring. Of course these skills are even now important, but skating has become still much more important than the other attributes, and it is leading to darn ugly and dull hockey (much more dump and chase and speedy low hockey IQ grinders than ever before) in my opinion. This does not mean that I don't appreciate good skaters in hockey, just that I need them to have all these other attributes already in very good condition for me to appreciate the great skating too.

 

[Ippenator]

Btw, as a correction @kelsier, Ehlers has practically never played junior hockey in Denmark, but in Switzerland, which has definitely better junior leagues than Denmark has. For sure still by some margin behind the class that the Finnish junior leagues have, but the margin hasn't been really huge for years anymore.

 

[NikF]

Maybe actually try seeing him play instead of stat watching? I don't think he would be ranked as first rounder in every list if he was another Sampo Ranta.

Not on every list. He was never in 1st round for us so far (this season or last season).

Honestly, I've watched him quite a bit this season (Liiga, 4 nations, and WJC) and his ranking mystifies me. McKeen's, Future Considerations, Hockey Prospect and ISS all have him as the top Finnish prospect and his rank has barely decreased this year despite him not doing a whole lot of, well, anything.

I love the tools but he's gotta do something with them to convince me to draft him as high as he's being ranked.

His tools are certainly of first round quality, for us we just didn't see him display the kind of hockey sense that would make us feel comfortable about having him in the first round yet.

But do we actually know what real NHL scouts think about him?

ISS can have him as a high 1st rounder, but what does that really mean and do they even have a scout watching games in Finland this season? It's good to remember that ISS had Otto Mäkinen ranked as a 1st rounder for 2016 draft after a productive Hlinka Cup. It's also good to remember that they didn't rank Miro Heiskanen as 1st rounder until April/May last year. Some of the public scouting agencies may do a better job than ISS, but as far as I know none of them have full time staff in Europe apart from Central Scouting and that probably impacts the end result quite a bit.

Not a carbon copy, but Kupari reminds me of Roope Hintz in both good and bad. Great speed and skating, good skill level, but maybe a bit soft in some aspects and doesn't necessarily stand out with his hockey sense. It's wrong to judge Kupari just based on his play in Liiga due to limited ice time, but from what I've seen his play in Jr.A hasn't been particularly great or uplifting either. Kupari can easily go in the 1st round, but he's such an enigmatic prospect that it wouldn't surprise me much if several NHL organizations rank him outside the top-31 come draft day.

We agree he could be a divisive prospect because of the discrepancy between his tools which are easy to appreciate and some question marks about his sense for the game (which at least on our end has kept us a bit colder). As a side-note, we don't really see the Hintz comparison though.

 

[kelsier]

I think that's a lot of stat stalking right there. I checked this Nordgren who seems to be on top of every list and who has wayyyy better statistics compared to Kupari and he has exactly 1 point in 11 games at men's level. Talking about not so flattering production. Also Kupari has been jumping all over from U20 to FEL and from FEL to Mestis, then back to FEL and it can't be easy to find your ground if both of your feet are above the air or being consistently transported from place A to B. Furthermore, Nordgren is also a 2018 draftee and I haven't once seen his name come up in any of the draft lists (granted I pretty much give up after the first two rounds or so) which pretty much speaks for the fact that not all the future success is based on numbers. Should Kupari in fact be judged by those alone, he would be nowhere near the first round. Besides, I already mentioned that there was nothing particularly fascinating about his statistics but then again, I'm no expert what comes to Jr teams here and what kind of support they could offer their young stars, which could very well explain why for example someone like Nordgren has a lot better production in the U20 than Kupari (such as line mates), but at the same time is noway close when compared at the men's level (0,09 vs 0,25 ppg).

I just think you are seeing Ehlers' everywhere nowadays instead of giving these guys a chance. Sure I love skill players with high hockey IQ just as much as you do (take Aho for example, who also nowadays happens to be an elite skater by his own right) and I was hoping to hear something refreshing, good or bad, that I couldn't find out just by checking top point producers. He could have more points in the Jrs this year sure, but in the FEL considering his ice time and role, you really cannot expect much at all. Seeing him play the kind of games like the ones vs HPK or Lukko I cannot be but pleased. I'm not claiming that Kupari WILL become some massive superstar wonder kid but rather, I really like what I've seen so far. What I haven't seen is the so called lack of IQ that somehow massively reflects at the production rate. The days of K.Kapanen or even R.Hintz to some extent just come to mind when I try think of fast or really fast skaters that made it to the league at pretty early age with some serious fundamental hockey IQ issues. So far I haven't seen such signs in Kupari but should that happen I'll be the first one to call it in. We will see in a few years I suppose.

 

[QnebO]

Kupari looked really good on WJC. He was surprise to me. He is the one name in team that actually was doing really well, the team just didint get it going. You can tell that his skating is really good and other skills are too. Outperformed Heiskanen and Tolvanen

 

[JustaFinnishGuy]

Kupari looked really good on WJC. He was surprise to me. He is the one name in team that actually was doing really well, the team just didint get it going. You can tell that his skating is really good and other skills are too. Outperformed Heiskanen and Tolvanen

Tolvanen was the one doing everything except shooting really well. No, Kupari stickhandled the puck to the zone quite nicely a few times but Tolvanen did everything in the offensive end. It's ridiculous that a player that scored 0+0 in 3 games is even suggested to have played better than eg. Tolvanen.
It wasn't hard to 'outperform' Heiskanen. He was playing through an injury, and Kupari still did not outperform him either.

 

[TheFinnishTrap]

His tools are undeniably great. The amount of times he backchecked and created a turnover on that video is amazing. He also has great hands, kind of reminds me of William Nylander in the way he stickhandles. However, I think it's also warranted to criticise his decisionmaking. As seen on that video, he can look amazing dangling between players, but it tends to result in the opponent outmanning him and taking the puck. In his defense, it could just be that he hasn't fully translated his game to the pro level, as his style has worked well against juniors. The way I see it, it should be doable for him to tune his tendencies towards a more straightforward style. Instead of taking on 3 defenders all alone, just dump the puck in.

 

[Hokinaittii]

But honestly in Kupari's case speed is clearly making people blind. I really dislike the way how hockey has turned into overvalueing skating way too much over the much more important skills like smart play, great passing and shooting and efficient goalscoring. Of course these skills are even now important, but skating has become still much more important than the other attributes, and it is leading to darn ugly and dull hockey (much more dump and chase and speedy low hockey IQ grinders than ever before) in my opinion. This does not mean that I don't appreciate good skaters in hockey, just that I need them to have all these other attributes already in very good condition for me to appreciate the great skating too.

I don't think his speed is making anyone blind, it's just a plain fact that if you as good skater as Kupari, you are able to do so much more in the rink because most of the times you are the first to reach the puck. Skating has come even bigger asset than it was previously when the game wasn't as fast paced as it is now.

Take Laine for example, guy has all the skill in the world but most of the times he looks mediocre because he isn't getting to the places fast enough and that makes him chase the game/puck. Not much his size can help him there.

Kupari is a fine example of player what teams are looking for: fast, skilled and competes hard. Even his shot is solid. Maybe hockey IQ isn't his best asset since he tends to dangle sometimes too much and hog the puck but there are bunch of great players in NHL with solid tools who aren't known for their flawless decision making either.



Maybe Kupari wouldn't be top-20 pick 10 years ago but I feel like he is now because teams are valuing more players like him and he would most likely fit any teams playstyle well.

 

[Hokinaittii]

His tools are undeniably great. The amount of times he backchecked and created a turnover on that video is amazing. He also has great hands, kind of reminds me of William Nylander in the way he stickhandles. However, I think it's also warranted to criticise his decisionmaking. As seen on that video, he can look amazing dangling between players, but it tends to result in the opponent outmanning him and taking the puck. In his defense, it could just be that he hasn't fully translated his game to the pro level, as his style has worked well against juniors. The way I see it, it should be doable for him to tune his tendencies towards a more straightforward style. Instead of taking on 3 defenders all alone, just dump the puck in.

I agree. Kind of reminds you of Laine in his draft year. So much unnecessary dangling with bad results. It took him sometime to drop it and now you hardly see him pulling any unnecessary stuff in NHL.

 

[Ippenator]

I don't think his speed is making anyone blind, it's just a plain fact that if you as good skater as Kupari, you are able to do so much more in the rink because most of the times you are the first to reach the puck. Skating has come even bigger asset than it was previously when the game wasn't as fast paced as it is now.

Take Laine for example, guy has all the skill in the world but most of the times he looks mediocre because he isn't getting to the places fast enough and that makes him chase the game/puck. Not much his size can help him there.

Kupari is a fine example of player what teams are looking for: fast, skilled and competes hard. Even his shot is solid. Maybe hockey IQ isn't his best asset since he tends to dangle sometimes too much and hog the puck but there are bunch of great players in NHL with solid tools who aren't known for their flawless decision making either.



Maybe Kupari wouldn't be top-20 pick 10 years ago but I feel like he is now because teams are valuing more players like him and he would most likely fit any teams playstyle well.

Sorry, but for sure he shouldn’t be a top 20 pick even nowadays. Did you just ignore how facts were put to the table how bad he has been at producing really? I mean he is in completely another league than Laine, Aho, Barkov and Granlund for example, when they all were playing against U18 or U20 players. And that league is definitely not favorable for him in comparison.

He has in fact pretty bad production against junior’s when you take into account that he has had his blazing skating. Usually kids that are amazing skaters can dominate like crazy in the Finnish junior leagues, but unfortunately he hasn’t been able to do that even in those leagues. I honestly don’t think that he will be ever a good first class player. Maybe a crazy skating grinder that the NHL covets so much for nowadays. But honestly it is a mistake to focus so much into getting exactly guys like Kupari, because hockey will become gradually a completely mindless skating and grinding fest. At some point it will also start affecting how much people will really enjoy watching it anymore. I know at least that for me it has already become much, much more boring and unimaginative than it was at best.

Thankfully there is no such thing in reality as an evolution. Things don’t just keep continuously developing even though people are often so smug that they really believe that humans and things made by humans are only developing. They just keep changing. Sometimes for better and sometimes for even worse.

At some point it will happen that there comes again so talented players that are not as focused on skating as the league wants to be right now, and when those players will dominate thoroughly, then the tendencies for the ”greater” hockey minds called as coaches, will start changing again to focusing on something else more than skating.

The game has not developed or evolved, it has just changed, and at least in my opinion clearly for the worse.