C Joseph Veleno (2018, 30th, DET) II

[Hatter of the Beach]

Veleno in my mind seems to have fallen victim to old toy syndrome and high expectations. People were expecting him to be the next big thing, and instead he just looks like a “good” prospect, which is a disapointment relative to where a lot of people think he should have went. Additionally, as scouts already had seen a lot of him, lots of players such as Ty Dellandria became the sexy new toy pick. It is human nature to believe yourself smarter than the general population (seriously, over 30% of polled people assume they have a genius IQ), so contraianism is always rampant by people looking to make a name for themselves.

Maybe Veleno busts, it’s impossible to say at this point, but players with his numbers go in the mid first round every draft, and is well worth the flyer at 30. Anyone bashing the Wings for picking this guy just doesn’t understand how unlikely most draft picks are to get to the NHL in general. Much like Rasmussen, I feel time will sway many people’s opinion. Even if he develops into a Valteri Filppula, most GMs would take that at 30 every single draft

 

[TwoPiece]

There is nothing implicit about this.

Players drop for many reasons, notably character (Ho-Sang, McCann, DeAngelo). This isn't why Veleno dropped, and many talents have dropped before for reasons other than character and have later been considered good picks for where they were picked (I'm thinking DeBrincat, Tolvanen).

Is that so hard to understand? Nobody questioned JoVel's character here. A lot of teams probably wanted to draft a player they thought had higher upside before him in the first round. Detroit then decided he was the BPA at 30, which is just fine...

Is it so hard to understand that "character" was brought into question because of the implicit inclusions of character-related draft day drops..? No, no it isn't. Character was specifically mentioned far before I ever typed the word.

 

[TwoPiece]

I've always associated Veleno with Backlund.

A fair comparison IMO.

 

[raymond23]

I'll take Andrew Cogliano all day.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I've always associated Veleno with Backlund.

Bob?

 

[RedWingzz]

He dropped because he isn't very good, highly overrated, and his game won't translate well to the NHL game.

I bet you Veleno has a better NHL career than Dellandrea.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Man, Veleno may be taking over Rasmussen as the most overly bashed Detroit prospect.

These two will be fun to look back on in 5 years.

 

[araisarena]

Man, Veleno may be taking over Rasmussen as the most overly bashed Detroit prospect.

These two will be fun to look back on in 5 years.

Imagine hating on a 6'6 Center prospect that skates the way Rasmussen does. You gotta watch the kids to formulate your own opinions, most of these TV analysts have very few showings of prospects especially if they aren't playing U-18 in the spring or WJC in the winter. Lazy narratives galore with Veleno case in point. He's really good and kind of reminds me of Matt Duchene a bit stylistically. Same type of skating stride, both stocky center guys that really generate power in their strides.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Imagine hating on a 6'6 Center prospect that skates the way Rasmussen does. You gotta watch the kids to formulate your own opinions, most of these TV analysts have very few showings of prospects especially if they aren't playing U-18 in the spring or WJC in the winter. Lazy narratives galore with Veleno case in point. He's really good and kind of reminds me of Matt Duchene a bit stylistically. Same type of skating stride, both stocky center guys that really generate power in their strides.

FWIW I don't really think analysts hate on Ras much. This board loves to call him a bust though.

A 6' 6" 220 pound, 1.51 PPG average while playing hurt bust.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I'll take Andrew Cogliano all day.

It is largely about perspective. Finding a player like Cogliano at 30 is a good use of that pick. I support the pick even though I doubt he has the offensive intelligence or sense to become a top-six NHL center (notwithstanding his athleticism).

 

[araisarena]

FWIW I don't really think analysts hate on Ras much. This board loves to call him a bust though.

A 6' 6" 220 pound, 1.51 PPG average while playing hurt bust.

got lucky to see Rasmussen quite a bit over the last 2 years, he's good. He might have been drafted a little bit high but it's not about 2017 rankings, it's about how you project them at the next level.

 

[TwoPiece]

I still remember watching the draft... Pick 23 comes around, and Anaheim takes Lundestrom, and I'm asking myself "who took Veleno, when?" I check the board and he's still available. My mind was blown. Pick-by-pick I'm waiting to hear his name snatched right before Detroit. Then Sandin was taken by TOR (still a good choice - who I wanted if Joe was already taken), and in my group chat (where we're all still dumbfounded by Zadina falling in DET's lap) I said "They HAVE to take Veleno. I know they need D, but he's the 11th BPA".

I can see the "dull" outlook on him. He's been a high-profile person and player since he was granted Exceptional status. He's been scouted for longer than most 2018-eligible players. He's an exceptional player and person. I was just very confused, because by all accounts, he's better in every way compared to a guy like Lundestrom who was taken @ #23. It very well could be the, "fell in love with another player we knew would be available" for a lot of teams, too.

I think fans, on this board included, don't "see upside" because he's more of a safe player. IMO he's a guaranteed Bottom-6 center, as "guaranteed" as you can get with an 18-year old, and those guys aren't always given their due when considering their upside. Same applies to Rasmussen (being "safe"). There are a lot of very fair comparisons, like Backlund, though too.

I think that after this next year in the Q, and then 2019-2020 in the AHL, a lot of teams will regret passing on Veleno. Grand Rapids has been a well-oiled machine for a few years. If he plays well there I expect it to show up on the stat sheets.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

got lucky to see Rasmussen quite a bit over the last 2 years, he's good. He might have been drafted a little bit high but it's not about 2017 rankings, it's about how you project them at the next level.

Meh. Ras was projected at #9 by Bob. He went right where he was projected. Everybody got a bug up their butt because Vilardi was still there. (Admittedly, I did too)

It's kinda funny though. Everybody trashed Detroit for not grabbing Vilardi, who fell big time. But now people are turning around and trashing Veleno, who fell to Detroit.

I still remember watching the draft... Pick 23 comes around, and Anaheim takes Lundestrom, and I'm asking myself "who took Veleno, when?" I check the board and he's still available. My mind was blown. Pick-by-pick I'm waiting to hear his name snatched right before Detroit. Then Sandin was taken by TOR (still a good choice - who I wanted if Joe was already taken), and in my group chat (where we're all still dumbfounded by Zadina falling in DET's lap) I said "They HAVE to take Veleno. I know they need D, but he's the 11th BPA".

FWIW I believe it was alluded to that if Veleno hadn't been there, Detroit was grabbing Berggren with #30.

Obviously there's a possibility that anybody could bust, but as it stands right now, they really just had all the stars align for that draft.

 

[TwoPiece]

FWIW I believe it was alluded to that if Veleno hadn't been there, Detroit was grabbing Berggren with #30.

... They really just had all the stars align for that draft.

I may have had an issue with that, just because I'm really high on Alexeyev, who WSH took at #31.

The stars really did align for Detroit. Holland may have had a useless (IMO) 2017 draft after Kotkansalo, but this one could bear a ton of fruit for Detroit.

2017 was a very shallow/thin draft, too, so it's not just on Holland. I had a really difficult time trying to put stock or value into ranking 2nd rounders+. It was a frustrating summer for me. Gus Lindstrom was such a good choice at the time and I don't think many teams had an ounce of interest in him.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I may have had an issue with that, just because I'm really high on Alexeyev, who WSH took at #31.

Dunno enough about Alexeyev, but I recall reading one write up that claimed if Berggren was a little bit bigger he'd have been a top 10 pick.

 

[TwoPiece]

Dunno enough about Alexeyev, but I recall reading one write up that claimed if Berggren was a little bit bigger he'd have been a top 10 pick.

Which I don't understand, because Debrincat is a midget who just outscored a teammate of his who's making $10 million more and is 12 years older.

I think I had Berggren at #21. It's only partially because of his size. He just needs more time to "grow" a little. Not necessarily height, but strength. He's not as ready as those other guys, but he could easily be one of the Top-10 scorers of this draft when all is said and done. Tons of talent in that kid.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I support the pick even though I doubt he has the offensive intelligence or sense to become a top-six NHL center (notwithstanding his athleticism).

I have a hard time understanding this criticism, because every time I've seen Veleno he's played a fairly intelligent game. He loves to curl back and read the play and find an open teammate. He's a high vision playmaker, and that's basically where all of his offense comes from.

When I think of a guy who doesn't have the sense, I think of a guy with physical tools and a great shot who can blindly drive a lane and finish when the puck is on his stick, but can't read a play to save his life. Those guys have to walk back their offensive games because they can't adapt.

But if anything, I think Veleno is actually the opposite of those guys. He's too busy reading the play to do something so basic and nonreactive. Like if he could start to drive the net to create havoc or just shoot to see if there could be a rebound, it would do him a ton of good. It would give him another element. I think he's got to let go of the desire to pick apart the defense and start playing percentages more.

 

[Shaman464]

I see him as someone whose potential upside (only using Red Wings comparison) is Frans Nielsen, but more likely a Darren Helm. But not a bad pick up at 30, though I would have preferred them go defense heavy.

 

[Thebesthockey]

He will have a more effective NHL career than wahlstrom , hayton and farabee

 

[shotvalley]

He will have a more effective NHL career than wahlstrom , hayton and farabee

Oh, ok.

 

[TwoPiece]

He will have a more effective NHL career than wahlstrom , hayton and farabee

I wouldn't bet on that one.

 

[Thebesthockey]

I wouldn't bet on that one.

one trick pony

 

[TwoPiece]

one trick pony

He's really, really, good at that trick, though.

 

[Thebesthockey]

He's really, really, good at that trick, though.

lol
true

i just see him always waiting on the play to come to him
for a player that size he should be much more engaged

 

[TT1]

The reason why i think Veleno won't pan out in the NHL is because he's already an ineffective ES player in juniors, his bread and butter is making plays on the PP. When he's given time and space (which is given freely on the PP) he can make good plays.. but the problem is i don't think he has the ability to create time and space for himself, especially not when he turns pro.

People don't realize how cutthroat pro hockey is, i personally don't see any qualities in Veleno that'll help separate himself from other players.. he's just such a vanilla player. In my eyes i don't think he has the offensive tools to be an effective ES player in the NHL so there's no way he becomes a top 6 player.. and do you really want a player like Veleno in your bottom 6? I feel like his NHL upside is him being a bottom 6 PP/PK specialist with limited ES time.

And let's be real, scouts have been closely watching Veleno for 3 years now, he was definitely one of the most scouted prospects in this years draft. They must have thought that there were serious flaws in his game if he ended sliding as much as he did. To me he just looks like a junior league player, i don't see his game translating very well to the NHL.