C Joseph Veleno (2018, 30th, DET) II

[goonybird]

And then there are the Kirill Kabanov's and Josh Ho-Sang's (granted Josh's ship has not completely sailed)

The only thing Kabanov and Veleno have in common is that they once played in New Brunswick

 

[Thrasymachus]

The only thing Kabanov and Veleno have in common is that they once played in New Brunswick

Red Wing fans should be grateful

 

[le_sean]

The only thing Kabanov and Veleno have in common is that they once played in New Brunswick

Okay, then Angelo Esposito. Big hype, big draft day drop, big disappointment.

 

[CowbellConray]

That’s not true. He is in the same category as Barzal and Chycrun in terms of being highly hyped and scouted for years, only to fall on draft day. Not saying he will end up as good, but players do drop from being overscouted. The ‘complaint’ on Veleno on draft day was that he may only pan out as a 3C, while Hayton went 5th and Dellandrea 13th. Both of them could only end up 3Cs

2016 was two years ago. I tend to wait 5 years before ruling on a draft but Chycrun has shown he can hold down a #4/5 role. At 16th overall - he still has a lot of growing to do (and he is still very young).

2015: Barzal isnt the same as Veleno - he was injured and missed a large chunk of the year. That isn't the same as Veleno, who played most of the year.

2014: Comparable would be Jared McCann. Was 16th on Bob's list and dropped to 24th. Looks to be a decent middle 6 player

2013: Hunter Shinkarak - Ranked around the top 10 and dropped to 24th. Adam Erne rated 20th by Bob goes 32nd. These are drops of 10+ spots against their ranking.

2012: I'll give you 2012. The worst draft in recent history had teams moving away from consensus and taking players all over the rankings. Forsberg dropped from 3 and TT dropped from 7-10 to 18.

2011: Tyler Biggs was rated 15th. He turned out to be a player and a steal at 22...

2010: Gormley, Fowler, Etem, John Mcfarland... Out of these 4 only Fowler turned into an NHL player. But that was a drop from top-5 to 13th. Not 10th to 30th

 

[goonybird]

Okay, then Angelo Esposito. Big hype, big draft day drop, big disappointment.

Esposito and Kabanov have more in common with each other

 

[93LEAFS]

2016 was two years ago. I tend to wait 5 years before ruling on a draft but Chycrun has shown he can hold down a #4/5 role. At 16th overall - he still has a lot of growing to do (and he is still very young).

2015: Barzal isnt the same as Veleno - he was injured and missed a large chunk of the year. That isn't the same as Veleno, who played most of the year.

2014: Comparable would be Jared McCann. Was 16th on Bob's list and dropped to 24th. Looks to be a decent middle 6 player

2013: Hunter Shinkarak - Ranked around the top 10 and dropped to 24th. Adam Erne rated 20th by Bob goes 32nd. These are drops of 10+ spots against their ranking.

2012: I'll give you 2012. The worst draft in recent history had teams moving away from consensus and taking players all over the rankings. Forsberg dropped from 3 and TT dropped from 7-10 to 18.

2011: Tyler Biggs was rated 15th. He turned out to be a player and a steal at 22...

2010: Gormley, Fowler, Etem, John Mcfarland... Out of these 4 only Fowler turned into an NHL player. But that was a drop from top-5 to 13th. Not 10th to 30th

Both Shinkaruk and McCann were flagged for character concerns. I've heard McCann was actually given an ND grade by a couple teams due to them. Everything I've heard about Veleno is that he is a high-character kid. Although, I don't think the Red Wings got a steal at 30. He was drafted around where he should have been.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I think Veleno has potential but when a player falls like he did they tend to not pan out.

But the middle six center projections are very fair

Not sure players that get reached on are more likely to work out. Or players that get drafted exactly where they’re ranked. In the end prospects have a low chance of panning out almost regardless. You can do worse at #30 than a guy who is a likely NHLer and very possibly has top 6 upside though.

 

[TwoPiece]

If Veleno dropped because of "character", then 28 other teams made a drastic mistake. "Character" is one of the least concerns regarding this prospect.

The Wings have drafted a lot of players with a ton of leadership qualities over the past few years. Larkin, Cholowski, Rasmussen, and Veleno all have great charisma.

This is a great thing for the organization, because with Datsyuk gone, and Zetterberg with Kronwall one step out the door, these kids are gonna be the ones taking over "How to be a Red Wing". Abdelkader and Helm should still be around, but these guys will be the guys giving examples of how to act on-ice, and how to train off-ice.

 

[schnapshot]

If Veleno dropped because of "character", then 28 other teams made a drastic mistake. "Character" is one of the least concerns regarding this prospect.

The Wings have drafted a lot of players with a ton of leadership qualities over the past few years. Larkin, Cholowski, Rasmussen, and Veleno all have great charisma.

This is a great thing for the organization, because with Datsyuk gone, and Zetterberg with Kronwall one step out the door, these kids are gonna be the ones taking over "How to be a Red Wing". Abdelkader and Helm should still be around, but these guys will be the guys giving examples of how to act on-ice, and how to train off-ice.

Nobody here has ever said he dropped because of character... He dropped because of a lack of upside in the eyes of scouts.

 

[TwoPiece]

Nobody here has ever said he dropped because of character... He dropped because of a lack of upside in the eyes of scouts.

Well, all of the players mentioned who "dropped on draft day" all fell because of character. So, yes, it's been implied by those comparisons.

 

[schnapshot]

Well, all of the players mentioned who "dropped on draft day" all fell because of character. So, yes, it's been implied by those comparisons.

In your head maybe but not by those who were talking about it.

Dropping is dropping

 

[TwoPiece]

In your head maybe but not by those who were talking about it.

Dropping is dropping

They dropped because of character... It's not inferred, it's implied, by implicitly listing said "character problem" drops. Understood?

 

[izlez]

It really is amazing how everyone focuses so much on what is currently in front of them to evaluate a player. Forget CHL seasons, forget playoffs, forget fancy stats, forget size, forget speed.

Here, on August 6th 2018, we do a deep dive into articles written pre draft vs the actual draft and compare the numbers of other players that the articles were also wrong about. What do those players have in common when it comes to playing hockey? Absolutely nothing, but right this second it is the most important factor in determining a players career... until hockey starts up again

 

[Killerjas]

What does "lack of upside" even mean?

 

[BStinson]

What does "lack of upside" even mean?

The “lack of upside” probably relates to his shot which isn’t bad but it’s not great either and therefore people attribute lack of offensive upside. Veleno seems like a pass first, high hockey IQ player, that’s defensive responsible. I also think people attribute lack of offensive upside because a forward is labeled as a 200ft player unless they get in the conversation of the top 3 picks. Does he have a chance to be a 1C of course but I wouldn’t bet on it. I’m not saying he’s bad either I’m just saying the chances that any prospects (minus generational labeled ones) have a slim chance at being a 1C especially most HFB definition of a 1C.

 

[araisarena]

I guess you didn’t really watch him play if you thought he was better than Kotkaniemi and Hayton. No chance he’s the best centre of the draft. No shot, mediocre offensive awareness.

I think anybody that watched any of Joe Veleno knows that awareness and hockey IQ isn't something he lacked. He played on a bad team, adjusted well playing with elite talent in Drummondville immediately and while tailed off a bit at the end of the season, had a good playoff. Has 2 way ability, elite speed and good hands, sees the ice really well.

 

[le_sean]

I think anybody that watched any of Joe Veleno knows that awareness and hockey IQ isn't something he lacked. He played on a bad team, adjusted well playing with elite talent in Drummondville immediately and while tailed off a bit at the end of the season, had a good playoff. Has 2 way ability, elite speed and good hands, sees the ice really well.

If he had great IQ, size, speed, hands and two-way ability, he wouldn’t have struggled in any situation in the Q and wouldn’t been picked 30th. His upside is limited because his offensive awareness is limited. He’s essentially Andrew Cogliano, a player that has nice tools, will be useful, but whose upside is limited.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

What does "lack of upside" even mean?

Would you draft Brandon Sutter or Nick Bonino in the 1st round if you could possibly assume a bit more risk and get Kucherov or Doughty?

They dropped because of character... It's not inferred, it's implied, by implicitly listing said "character problem" drops. Understood?

You have some really bad takes to go along with your condescending tone. Joe Veleno dropping had NOTHING to do with character or the person. As has been explained to you multiple times.

 

[TwoPiece]

You have some really bad takes to go along with your condescending tone. Joe Veleno dropping had NOTHING to do with character or the person. As has been explained to you multiple times.

Did you seriously just infer tone over emotionless text?

I hope all of your personal conversations are communicated via phone call. I'd hate to text you.

Obviously you have no information regarding the reasons that previously mentioned "draft day drops" occurred...

 

[MrHeiskanen]

They dropped because of character... It's not inferred, it's implied, by implicitly listing said "character problem" drops. Understood?

He dropped because he isn't very good, highly overrated, and his game won't translate well to the NHL game.

 

[araisarena]

If he had great IQ, size, speed, hands and two-way ability, he wouldn’t have struggled in any situation in the Q and wouldn’t been picked 30th. His upside is limited because his offensive awareness is limited. He’s essentially Andrew Cogliano, a player that has nice tools, will be useful, but whose upside is limited.

I mean Barzal fell to the teens being really good in Junior with a top 8 final rankings on most boards and probably ultimately fell because he didn't live up to being the supposed elite consolation prize in the McDavid draft anointed to him 2-3 years before he was drafted. Seems to have panned out pretty well for the Isles. It happens, good talent fall all the time. DeBrincat fell to the 2nd round after a 100 point year. Veleno is really good and he drives play. I don't think anyone can watch him and think wow this kid can't think the game. I really like how he extends plays with his skating and his confidence holding onto the puck to open lanes.

Mind you, when somebody like Veleno falls, teams weigh the option of drafting one of the 2-3 guys they really fall in love with during the process at their range over guys with better talent that fall in which they haven't interviewed, might not have gathered as much information on and that's a risk in its own.

 

[TwoPiece]

He dropped because he isn't very good, highly overrated, and his game won't translate well to the NHL game.

What year did you travel to the past from?

 

[araisarena]

Getting a top 6 center prospect at 30 is a value pick and a steal. At the very least when scouting players you got to look at what tools they possess that project well at the next level. So at the very least you have a guy that has good passing ability and hands (great next level tool,) can skate (next level tool) and is defensively cognizant of his surroundings and his man (coaches favorite asset for some reason).

Don't fall in love with the draft spot but fall in or out of love with the player's ability. Joe Veleno has ability.

 

[KingTux]

I still can't believe he fell into Detroit's lap. I had him ranked 11th, above both Kotkaniemi, and Hayton. He could be the best center of this draft when all is said and done.

I think it's a no-brainer that he remains in the Q this upcoming season, to hopefully dominate at the same (or better) pace he did during the last-half of 2017-18 with Drummondville. He has a chip on his shoulder, like Zadina, and I'd like to see it inspire another spike in development.

His ceiling is probably Nicklas Backstrom, sans 30 goals/100 points. His floor is something of a Valtteri Filppula/Lars Eller. IMO he's the 3rd "smartest" player of the 2018 draft and, similar to the Rasmussen pick, a sure-fire NHL player in some capacity.

I expect to see him start 2019-2020 in Grand Rapids, and that should give fans and scouts a good idea of exactly the type of player he's developing into. I don't think his game translates well to the wing, so he's going to be a 2nd/3rd/4th line center.

I've always associated Veleno with Backlund.

 

[schnapshot]

They dropped because of character... It's not inferred, it's implied, by implicitly listing said "character problem" drops. Understood?

There is nothing implicit about this.

Players drop for many reasons, notably character (Ho-Sang, McCann, DeAngelo). This isn't why Veleno dropped, and many talents have dropped before for reasons other than character and have later been considered good picks for where they were picked (I'm thinking DeBrincat, Tolvanen).

Is that so hard to understand? Nobody questioned JoVel's character here. A lot of teams probably wanted to draft a player they thought had higher upside before him in the first round. Detroit then decided he was the BPA at 30, which is just fine...