C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019, 1st, NJD) Part 6

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
You really think the league looked anything like it does today? The dead puck era has come and gone since then. The way athletes are today is radically different. The NHL is different. The AHL is also different. These comparisons are useful for trivia, that's about it. The European idea is so silly compared to referencing a guy who hasn't even played in the NHL this decade right? Fascinating thought process there

The idea behind demoting a top pick in his rookie year is timeless — improving development for long-term success.

The Devils wargamed these contingencies before the draft. They knew he was underdeveloped physically.

If they were concerned, they would have had him go to the CHL or NCAA after his quiet prospect and training camps rather than play him on a team desperate to make the playoffs.

Era has nothing to do with it. If anything, it’s safer to play in the NHL in 2020 more than any period in league history. League is getting smaller and faster with less physicality.
 
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Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Most of the players you mention weren't even eligible to be assigned to the AHL.

Well I said demoted, which in the case of Staal, Vinny, and Thornton would have been a return to junior, and none were.

I know the CBA changed in 1995, but why was Nolan allowed to play for Halifax in the AHL at 18 after being drafted out of Cornwall? Maybe that’s a question for the history board. Because he was an Irish citizen?
 

tealhockey

@overtheboards
Jun 2, 2012
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The idea behind demoting a top pick in his rookie year is timeless — improving development for long-term success.

The Devils wargamed these contingencies before the draft. They knew he was underdeveloped physically.

If they were concerned, they would have had him go to the CHL or NCAA after his quiet prospect and training camps rather than play him on a team desperate to make the playoffs.

Era has nothing to do with it. If anything, it’s safer to play in the NHL in 2020 more than any period in league history. League is getting smaller and faster with less physicality.
Era has nothing to do with it and then in the next sentence you state the NHL's current era is safer than any period in league history. I agree with the latter statement, but your statements are contradictory, and that isn't much credit for the fact that Hughes is not scoring yet, though I do think he will break through before long. The thing is we will never know what his rookie year (+career) would have been had they been patient with him, as they never would have been, so it is all moot.

My point, which you haven't refuted except to state that the Devils 'wargamed' this (please), is that a European pro league or even college hockey would have been a nice bridge for a slight, highly skilled player like Jack, to take a year and round out his game. He spent last year punking future average college hockey players, many of whom will never sign a pro contract. He has areas that I think he would have done well to focus on in this 18-year-old season rather than take on all the demands of the NHL at once; namely face-offs, shooting (especially from distance), handling physicality (ie bulking up -- easier to do when not playing 82 games), and performing in big games. The AHL doesn't strike me as ideal, you don't have the same passionate fanbase, games generally 'mean less', not the place to develop a killer instinct and put it all together like it could be playing for a Frolunda or Biel-Bienne, even Michigan. Playing in europe or college would have let his skill shine while still playing men and likely thriving at his desired position of center.

If you're curious about recent, more-applicable history, I spent some time in the spring looking at the history for first-overall types over the last twenty years. Expectations for first-overall picks
 
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Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Era has nothing to do with it and then in the next sentence you state the NHL's current era is safer than any period in league history. I agree with the latter statement, but your statements are contradictory, and that isn't much credit for the fact that Hughes is not scoring yet, though I do think he will break through before long. The thing is we will never know what his rookie year would have been had they been patient with him, as they never would have been, so it is all moot.

My point, which you haven't refuted except to state that the Devils 'wargamed' this (please), is that a European pro league or even college hockey would have been a nice bridge for a slight, highly skilled player like Jack, to take a year and round out his game. He spent last year punking future average college hockey players, many of whom will never sign a pro contract. He has areas that I think he would have done well to focus on in this 18-year-old season rather than take on all the demands of the NHL at once; namely face-offs, shooting (especially from distance), handling physicality (ie bulking up -- easier to do when not playing 82 games), and performing in big games. The AHL doesn't strike me as ideal, you don't have the same passionate fanbase, games generally 'mean less', not the place to develop a killer instinct and put it all together like it could be playing for a Frolunda or Biel-Bienne. Playing in europe or college would have let his skill shine while still playing men and likely thriving at his desired position of center.

If you're curious about recent, more-applicable history, I spent some time in the spring looking at the history for first-overall types over the last twenty years. Expectations for first-overall picks

I Prefaced that with “if anything”.

Meaning if (key word) I were to consider eras mattering (which in this case I don’t), I would point to the 2020 NHL being conducive for development, beyond the historical context I provided for all previous top picks. And that context doesn’t include shipping a teenage American or Canadian to Europe (please) because it’s kinda never happened.

Send your thesis to the Devils. Maybe you can be an innovator in player development and set a new standard for North American prospects for decades to come. Jim Hughes is always in Plymouth. Pitch your Frolunda idea to him. Great guy.
 

tealhockey

@overtheboards
Jun 2, 2012
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I Prefaced that with “if anything”.

Meaning if (key word) I were to consider eras mattering (which in this case I don’t), I would point to the 2020 NHL being conducive for development, beyond the historical context I provided for all previous top picks. And that context doesn’t include shipping a teenage American or Canadian to Europe (please) because it’s kinda never happened.

Send your thesis to the Devils. Maybe you can be an innovator in player development and set a new standard for North American prospects for decades to come. Jim Hughes is always in Plymouth. Pitch your Frolunda idea to him. Great guy.
I'll shoot in my thesis when you send in your logical explanation of the passage of time being irrelevant in competitive sports. Shero is probably too busy looking at what Doug Wickenheiser's GM was doing in 1980 to check out either of our takes though. Cheers
 

tealhockey

@overtheboards
Jun 2, 2012
1,197
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Them: “Send Hughes to the AHL”

Me: “Hasn’t happened to a top pick in 30 years.”

Them: “That’s irrelevant. He should go to Europe.”

Me: “That’s never happened to a North American top pick in NHL history. History does tell us he’s better off with the Devils.”

Them: “He should still go to Europe”

Me:
Funny because I said they should have let him simmer. As in a past-tense hypothetical. Poor reading comprehension if you think I've suggested getting loaned to Frolunda at this point. You are the only one who has suggested that, telling me about how I could advise his father on how to handle his son's development (?)

If you had read my first post rather than distracting yourself comparing him to players who haven't sniffed the NHL in this century, you would have seen that I said he's likely staying in the NHL regardless.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Funny because I said they should have let him simmer. As in a past-tense hypothetical. Poor reading comprehension if you think I've suggested getting loaned to Frolunda at this point. You are the only one who has suggested that, telling me about how I could advise his father on how to handle his son's development (?)

If you had read my first post rather than distracting yourself comparing him to players who haven't sniffed the NHL in this century, you would have seen that I said he's likely staying in the NHL regardless.

And if you understood that I was simply providing historical context, as in “has this ever happened before?” and “AHL demotions are incredibly rare in such cases”, you wouldn’t respond (unsolicited BTW) by dismissing it as irrelevant.

And I clearly was being sarcastic about Jim Hughes.
 

Blender

Registered User
Dec 2, 2009
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He played pretty well again today, and that was our best line 5on5. If it keeps up the points will come, and will eventually come in bunches. Three games in a row now of 60+ CF% for the Hughes line, and no points won't last forever with the ice tilted like that.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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Well I said demoted, which in the case of Staal, Vinny, and Thornton would have been a return to junior, and none were.

I know the CBA changed in 1995, but why was Nolan allowed to play for Halifax in the AHL at 18 after being drafted out of Cornwall? Maybe that’s a question for the history board. Because he was an Irish citizen?


I don't know fo sure but he started the season with the Nords and then went down to the AHL for 6 games, maybe on a 2 week conditioning assignment?
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
I don't know fo sure but he started the season with the Nords and then went down to the AHL for 6 games, maybe on a 2 week conditioning assignment?

I know but is that allowed under the CHL-NHL transfer agreement? My only guess is that Nolan being born in Ireland (Europe) may have technically made him an import (lol) and he wasn’t subject to the rules, if they were similar back them. Interesting.
 

Corso

Registered User
Aug 13, 2018
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The lack of scoring is more of a Devil's issue than whether or not Hughes belongs in the NHL. Have any of you critics actually watched any of the games? If so,then how can you honestly say that he has looked out of place. He is creating chances and often driving the play. The points will come!
 

tealhockey

@overtheboards
Jun 2, 2012
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The lack of scoring is more of a Devil's issue than whether or not Hughes belongs in the NHL. Have any of you critics actually watched any of the games? If so,then how can you honestly say that he has looked out of place. He is creating chances and often driving the play. The points will come!
No one is doubting whether the points will come, but how many, how soon, and how helpful will they be? I've been pretty positive about his last few games but he does get matched up against depth lines and he's with solid players now. The first overall pick should be looking 'not out of place' the way he's been touted. Especially in this new No Hitting League.

My main criticism is only this: had they let his one-of-a-kind skillset mature somewhere else this year, he might have been a rockstar this time next year, whereas this season could actually be harmful to his development learning to lose most games and eventually put up meaningless points with this Devils group. Obviously he could be the savior for this team that has 2 points in the standings in 5 games but that's a tall order. I've always seen him as the piece you add to push a good team over the top, not the piece that makes a bad team good. Plus they would probably get the same kind of draft pick as they will with him on the team this year. Worst case scenario he does just alright and actually improves their standings but not enough to make playoffs.

Maybe the 4D underwater chess move Shero wargamed was to have him play early on assuming he will take some years to realize his crazy upside so he doesn't get the mega millions a more prepared prospect would have made four years from now as opposed to what he might get in three years.
 
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tealhockey

@overtheboards
Jun 2, 2012
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And if you understood that I was simply providing historical context, as in “has this ever happened before?” and “AHL demotions are incredibly rare in such cases”, you wouldn’t respond (unsolicited BTW) by dismissing it as irrelevant.

And I clearly was being sarcastic about Jim Hughes.

It's a message board. A reply isn't really unsolicited, if random comments are 'unsolicited' the original post about guys who really have nothing to do with Jack Hughes is just as unsolicited lmfao. It is irrelevant to talk about that just like it would have been irrelevant to use those examples to talk down on Matthews playing in Europe for his draft year just because it had never been done before. Every player is different, you've failed to refute any of my points (except to repeat that no 1st overall pick gets demoted, which I am not even suggesting) you basically are just citing trivia and making sarcastic comments.
 

Gabranth

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Apr 2, 2009
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This is why you never go for the manlet, they're too volatile. If you're small, but not extremely skilled (Crosby, Kucherov) it's basically over. Waaaay safer to go for the guy with big frame.
 

Marc the Habs Fan

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Nov 30, 2002
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I know but is that allowed under the CHL-NHL transfer agreement? My only guess is that Nolan being born in Ireland (Europe) may have technically made him an import (lol) and he wasn’t subject to the rules, if they were similar back them. Interesting.

It happened yesterday, Chicago assigned Dach to the AHL for a conditioning stint.

Looking at Nolan's 1990-91 game log, he had an absence of about a month from mid-November to mid-December. It was likely an injury: Owen Nolan 1990-91 Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com
 
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wings5

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Jan 6, 2008
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This is why you never go for the manlet, they're too volatile. If you're small, but not extremely skilled (Crosby, Kucherov) it's basically over. Waaaay safer to go for the guy with big frame.

Hughes is extremely skilled he's just not built like Crosby was at 18, that's the difference.
 

Siludin

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Dec 9, 2010
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Still too early to pass any judgement on Hughes imo

As for the rest of the team, gotta give them 20 games to gel.
 
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Jersey Fresh

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There is literally zero chance of Hughes being sent down and it has nothing to do with his 1OA status. He's played very well over the last 4 games and hit a post last night. He'll be fine. Defensively and at the faceoff dot he's very much a work in progress, but we knew that already.

What you have here are posters that were whining about Hughes before he even got drafted and posters with axes to grind. They'll cycle in and out depending on how Hughes' week is going at any given time.
 

NJ DevLolz

The Many Saints of Newark
Sep 30, 2017
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There is literally zero chance of Hughes being sent down and it has nothing to do with his 1OA status. He's played very well over the last 4 games and hit a post last night. He'll be fine. Defensively and at the faceoff dot he's very much a work in progress, but we knew that already.

What you have here are posters that were whining about Hughes before he even got drafted and posters with axes to grind. They'll cycle in and out depending on how Hughes' week is going at any given time.
Yeah, I'd be worried if he hasn't literally gotten better every game. It's getting to the point where Jack is driving play now. He's really good.
 

Juicy Pop

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The lack of scoring is more of a Devil's issue than whether or not Hughes belongs in the NHL. Have any of you critics actually watched any of the games? If so,then how can you honestly say that he has looked out of place. He is creating chances and often driving the play. The points will come!

He's obviously someone with an elite skillset, but nobody should be dropping to the ice quite so easily after casual brushes. I'd seriously be concerned about his health until he puts on 15-20 lbs but I guess the Devils can't afford to lose Hall after all.
 

Nocashstyle

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This is why you never go for the manlet, they're too volatile. If you're small, but not extremely skilled (Crosby, Kucherov) it's basically over. Waaaay safer to go for the guy with big frame.

So after 5 games, Hughes "is what he is?" Cool, thanks for the concern, but I'm sure he'll be fine.
 
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Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
It's a message board. A reply isn't really unsolicited, if random comments are 'unsolicited' the original post about guys who really have nothing to do with Jack Hughes is just as unsolicited lmfao. It is irrelevant to talk about that just like it would have been irrelevant to use those examples to talk down on Matthews playing in Europe for his draft year just because it had never been done before. Every player is different, you've failed to refute any of my points (except to repeat that no 1st overall pick gets demoted, which I am not even suggesting) you basically are just citing trivia and making sarcastic comments.

Listen, I get what you’re going for. You’re in the same line of work as I am. I’ve been doing this long enough to know not everyone is going to like my work. You took a pretty lengthy vacation from these boards, then popped out of nowhere and went and criticized my early summer rankings as a “waste of time”. And oh what a shock — you just happen to also evaluate prospects for a blog.

So stop acting like we’re having a friendly debate here. You took a very general factoid aimed at nobody and immediately dismissed it as irrelevant, when it literally meets all the requirements for newsworthiness.

And if you think for a second that the GM and owner of New Jersey do not consider the PR ramifications of such a controvertial (and practically unprecedented) move with Hughes’s jersey selling out in The Rock pro shop, you are more naive than I originally thought.
 
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tuozzi

Registered User
Dec 9, 2011
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Them: “Send Hughes to the AHL”

Me: “Hasn’t happened to a top pick in 30 years.”

Them: “That’s irrelevant. He should go to Europe.”

Me: “That’s never happened to a North American top pick in NHL history. History does tell us he’s better off with the Devils.”

Them: “He should still go to Europe”

Me:
It's almost as if you're suggesting that something not happening before is evidence of it not working.

I'm not saying that Hughes should be demoted, but your reasoning sounds odd to say the least.
 

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