C Auston Matthews (2016, 1st, TOR) VI

[ijuka]

Wingers definitely do have defensive responsibility as well. Penguins demonstrated that 5-man defense is the way to go if you want to win the Stanley Cup. Center does have more of a filler role in defense which requires more on-the-fly decisionmaking and centers do overall have more impact. In general, center takes the center while wingers take the opposing defensemen. However, Center is responsible for a lot of the defensive doubling and such that requires them to switch their assignments and their assignments are also in significantly more danger of being open for a high danger chance. Nevertheless, rather than comparing centers to wingers, one should compare centers to the average center(value over replacement) and the same with wingers.


Still, could we stick to actually discussing Auston Matthews in here, please?

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Easy to conclude that when the player you're clearly biased for had much better team mates in every tournament. Put Laine on the US teams and Matthews on Finlands and your tune would change.

Lol...and Matthews played in an inferior, higher scoring league to Laine yet Leafs fans continually talk about how Matthews is more offensively talented and "out produced" Laine last season.

 

[X66]

I'm surprised that the seven month age difference between the two isn't a big deal for you - i know in the past you've been extremely aggressive in insisting that even a difference of a couple of months is extremely significant.

It is important, but at least I don't get caught in the act of using it only when it favours me like you got caught in that thread, lol. The 7 months is important, but it won't make much of a difference here because Matthews is the better player.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

It is important, but at least I don't get caught in the act of using it only when it favours me like you got caught in that thread, lol. The 7 months is important, but it won't make much of a difference here because Matthews is the better player.

Sure you do - you frequently bring up the age thing when it favours you and are silent on it at all other times. If Laine were a Leafs prospect we'd never stop hearing about the age difference. We probably wouldn't keep hearing about how Matthews "outproduced" him in an inferior league (while never hearing about how Laine outproduced Matthews in the playoffs and in two tournaments).

 

[Cotton]

I've watched both Laine and Matthews closely enough for the past year and I don't remember it ever coming up Matthews could challenge Laine's shot until now (surprisingly after the one wrister in practice from Matthews came live ). Just like with Puljujärvi's shot, he might able to shoot it harder in a practice but when it comes to games and executing it in in pressure, Laine will take the cake. Last season showed it and I have no doubts next season will show it again.


I'm sure if Matthews really were tier above Laine, he wouldn't have gotten outscored by Laine everytime when competiting in same tournament last season. Or at least he could have carried his team with his tier above wristers like Laine was able to do multiple times.

Doesn't really help you if you are a tier above player in regular season games/practice but can't transfer it to the big games/into scoresheet, does it?

I think your in the wrong thread. Your posts reek of insecurity and a loose grasp of the gargantuan differences between the NHL and crappy international tournaments - in which Laine coughed up the puck routinely even with the extra ice anyway. That he's creative and has a heavy slap shot nobody is denying, but he is also 80% hype at this point coming off said crappy tournament where his flaws were glossed over because his above average linemates fed him the puck for gimmies, or he had the time and space with the man advantage - and always against inferior competition.

So maybe you should go circle-jerk in the Laine thread and wait until he does something in the NHL first before you start knocking his betters. Matthews has the track record, the scouts, coaches, GMs, media and pedigree on his side. He the franchise player title and guys like Bob Mackenzie calling him NHL ready... last draft. Matthews will be fine, the question marks reside with Laine... Even though he plays the easier position and isn't a two-way player.

 

[X66]

Sure you do - you frequently bring up the age thing when it favours you and are silent on it at all other times.

When have I ever said age differences at that age is not important?

I've stated in this thread alone that the 7 months is important between the two.

Can you stop making things up? You've already been caught before.

 

[Liminality]

I'm so glad the conversation is back to predict who's the better player rather than talking about the made up contract issues.

I think if Matthews played a full season in the NLA we would have seen even more progression from him. Wonder what his numbers would have looked like.

 

[TDK67]

Lol...and Matthews played in an inferior, higher scoring league to Laine yet Leafs fans continually talk about how Matthews is more offensively talented and "out produced" Laine last season.

The problem with sarcastically dismissing Matthews "outscoring Laine in an inferior league" is that it completely diminishes the actual massive difference in Matthews' domination and scoring versus Laine's.

Yes, the NLA is inferior to an extent. However, it's not beer league vs NHL like some posters would like to make it seem.

But more importantly, in this "inferior" league, Matthews didn't just put up a few more points than Laine or score 2-3 more goals. He dominated at a level several tiers above Laine.

Laine put up 0.72 PPG (0.75 w/playoffs) & 0.37GPG (0.42 w/playoffs) in the FEL last year.

Laine finished ~23rd in PPG during the regular season if you remove players with small sample sizes (also, Eliteprospects doesn't have aggregate rankings based on regular season + playoffs, so I can only use regular season now)

Matthews put up 1.28 PPG (1.23 w/playoffs) & 0.67GPG (0.60 w/playoffs)

Matthews finished 4th in PPG during the regular season (again, EP doesn't combine reg + playoffs).

When you actually lay it out like that and try to step back and look at it objectively, Matthews didn't just marginally outproduce Laine last year. He outproduced Laine in both points and goals by several orders of magnitude all while playing the more difficult position.

Again, yes, the NLA is inferior. But it's not so vastly inferior. It's not 3-4 tiers below the FEL. It's not roughly 40% worse than the FEL...which is how Laine's #s stack up to Matthews'. Roughly 40% worse. That's without mentioning each players finish relative to the top of their league (4th vs 23rd).

So, maybe if Matthews only put up slightly better numbers and finished somewhere in the 15-20 range for scorers in the NLA we could dismiss all of the arguments about scoring that support Matthews.

Unfortunately (for the haters) that wasn't the case. Matthews absolutely dominated the NLA while being on foreign ice and in a foreign country and playing a harder position. Laine did great things at home, where he grew up, and while only being a winger.

This debate got to where it is because of a couple of tournaments where Laine's team was far superior to Matthews' and because every single year the media loves to build up a fight for #1 overall even if there really shouldn't be one. It even happened with the McEichel draft. The one draft where #1 couldn't be any clearer yet we still had some "pros/scouts" saying they "prefer" Eichel.

The difference in choice this year was never about a C vs a W. If Laine was clearly better and a "generational scorer" (like most Laine fans here claim--not just a small minority) then he would have gotten more than ~15% of scouts/execs voting for him as #1. Just look at the 2004 draft for evidence of a "generational" scoring winger being picked over an absolutely phenomenal center prospect. Positional bias had no effect on the outcome because Ovi truly was one of a kind. Laine is not. That's the simple fact of the matter and is no way a slight against Laine. Ovi was/is just that good (easily top 3 goal scorer in history, maybe #1--if you believe in era adjusted data).

The sooner people accept these truths, the sooner we can stop rehashing the same idiotic arguments over and over.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

^ *something-something make up my own criterias that give me the answer I want so i can sell it off as "truth"*

The only times you've seen them play in the same leagues this year Laine outperformed Matthews. In the WJC obviously, and he won MVP of the WHC (wether or not you agree it's not like they pick any random name to win it + Matthews wasnt one of the top considerations there)

My point here is you can sell either prospect as better than the other depending on how you sell it, then call it "factual truth" LOL

 

[TDK67]

^ *something-something make up my own criterias that give me the answer I want so i can sell it off as "truth"*

The only times you've seen them play in the same leagues this year Laine outperformed Matthews. In the WJC obviously, and he won MVP of the WHC (wether or not you agree it's not like they pick any random name to win it + Matthews wasnt one of the top considerations there)

My point here is you can sell either prospect as better than the other depending on how you sell it, then call it "factual truth" LOL

Well, ignoring the actual facts I presented speaks volumes about your argument.

I addressed everything they did last year including the WJC and WHC. Just because you don't like the picture it paints doesn't mean any of it is inaccurate or false.

Still don't believe me and think I'm biased? Check out the overwhelming majority of scouts/pros/execs who said Matthews > Laine.

 

[Hokinaittii]

I think your in the wrong thread. Your posts reek of insecurity and a loose grasp of the gargantuan differences between the NHL and crappy international tournaments - in which Laine coughed up the puck routinely even with the extra ice anyway. That he's creative and has a heavy slap shot nobody is denying, but he is also 80% hype at this point coming off said crappy tournament where his flaws were glossed over because his above average linemates fed him the puck for gimmies, or he had the time and space with the man advantage - and always against inferior competition.

So maybe you should go circle-jerk in the Laine thread and wait until he does something in the NHL first before you start knocking his betters. Matthews has the track record, the scouts, coaches, GMs, media and pedigree on his side. He the franchise player title and guys like Bob Mackenzie calling him NHL ready... last draft. Matthews will be fine, the question marks reside with Laine... Even though he plays the easier position and isn't a two-way player.

Both of the players played in those crappy international tournaments and either of the players have stepped their feet on the NHL rinks yet so I don't know what makes you think it's bad not to have WJC/WHC in mind when comparing these players?

Not really following you in the second part of your post either since I was only discussing whether Matthews has deadlier wrister than Laine. We all know Matthews is in overall a better player, it would be stupid to try to deny it at that point but you shouldn't either try to downplay Laine's accomplishments with just having a better linemates or luck.I mean, White-Matthews-Tkachuk vs Laine-Aho-Puljujärvi didn't sound too much in a favor for Laine before the tournament, did it?

Talk about insecureness when you guys aren't even willing to prove my points wrong instead of shouting random baits of Laine and not expecting people to come and reply. And when people take the bait, you tell them to **** off.

Anyway, since when it has become a tabu here in HFBoards to discuss/compare players in their respective threads? Especially when it's offseason, must be thrilling to circle-jerk about whether Matthews is a Kopitar/Toews hybrid or a Forsberg clone for 2 months.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Both of the players played in those crappy international tournaments and either of the players have stepped their feet on the NHL rinks yet so I don't know what makes you think it's bad not to have WJC/WHC in mind when comparing these players?

Not really following you in the second part of your post either since I was only discussing whether Matthews has deadlier wrister than Laine. We all know Matthews is in overall a better player, it would be stupid to try to deny it at that point but you shouldn't either try to downplay Laine's accomplishments with just having a better linemates or luck.I mean, White-Matthews-Tkachuk vs Laine-Aho-Puljujärvi didn't sound too much in a favor for Laine before the tournament, did it?

Talk about insecureness when you guys aren't even willing to prove my points wrong instead of shouting random baits of Laine and not expecting people to come and reply. And when people take the bait, you tell them to **** off.

Anyway, since when it has become a tabu here in HFBoards to discuss/compare players in their respective threads? Especially when it's offseason, must be thrilling to circle-jerk about whether Matthews is a Kopitar/Toews hybrid or a Forsberg clone for 2 months.

Most people don't try to downplay Laine. The narrative that Matthews is not simply an elite player but a near generational player while Laine is a one-dimensional winger, will not translate to the NHL, is inferior to Puljujarvi, etc was only developed by a small but vocal group of homers after the draft lottery. You'll notice that the loudest detractors are members of a single fanbase. It doesn't reflect the views of most knowledgeable people.

I think most neutral fans agree that while Matthews is a better player, that doesn't take anything away from Laine's skill and potential.

As far as Laine's WJC performance - I think that the majority of people would agree that he and Puljujarvi outplayed Matthews. The difference between the Finnish and US team is exaggerated. The Finnish team had one more goal in the tournament than the US team. Again - the narrative that Matthews was better was created after the draft lottery.

 

[Sundinisagod]

I've watched both Laine and Matthews closely enough for the past year and I don't remember it ever coming up Matthews could challenge Laine's shot until now (surprisingly after the one wrister in practice from Matthews came live ). Just like with Puljujärvi's shot, he might able to shoot it harder in a practice but when it comes to games and executing it in in pressure, Laine will take the cake. Last season showed it and I have no doubts next season will show it again.


I'm sure if Matthews really were tier above Laine, he wouldn't have gotten outscored by Laine everytime when competiting in same tournament last season. Or at least he could have carried his team with his tier above wristers like Laine was able to do multiple times.

Doesn't really help you if you are a tier above player in regular season games/practice but can't transfer it to the big games/into scoresheet, does it?

It was several months ago that Craig Button said that Matthews had the best shot in the draft...he's no HF level expert though.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Most people don't try to downplay Laine. The narrative that Matthews is not simply an elite player but a near generational player while Laine is a one-dimensional winger, will not translate to the NHL, is inferior to Puljujarvi, etc was only developed by a small but vocal group of homers after the draft lottery. You'll notice that the loudest detractors are members of a single fanbase. It doesn't reflect the views of most knowledgeable people.

I think most neutral fans agree that while Matthews is a better player, that doesn't take anything away from Laine's skill and potential.

As far as Laine's WJC performance - I think that the majority of people would agree that he and Puljujarvi outplayed Matthews. The difference between the Finnish and US team is exaggerated. The Finnish team had one more goal in the tournament than the US team. Again - the narrative that Matthews was better was created after the draft lottery.

He's always been better so that narrative is justified.

Done.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

He's always been better so that narrative is justified.

Done.

At WJC? Nope - it was the Leafs homers who came up with that one after the draft lottery.

It was several months ago that Craig Button said that Matthews had the best shot in the draft...he's no HF level expert though.

Button also said that Strome, Dvorak, Provorov, and Connor were better prospects than Marner. Weird that he wasn't as smart as the HF experts then.

 

[Joe MacMillan]

Most people don't try to downplay Laine. The narrative that Matthews is not simply an elite player but a near generational player while Laine is a one-dimensional winger, will not translate to the NHL, is inferior to Puljujarvi, etc was only developed by a small but vocal group of homers after the draft lottery. You'll notice that the loudest detractors are members of a single fanbase. It doesn't reflect the views of most knowledgeable people.

I think most neutral fans agree that while Matthews is a better player, that doesn't take anything away from Laine's skill and potential.

As far as Laine's WJC performance - I think that the majority of people would agree that he and Puljujarvi outplayed Matthews. The difference between the Finnish and US team is exaggerated. The Finnish team had one more goal in the tournament than the US team. Again - the narrative that Matthews was better was created after the draft lottery.

As is the difference between Laine and Matthews (if there was any). Laine had only two more points while playing alongside the tournament MVP and the best playmaking center besides Matthews himself.

 

[TDK67]

Most people don't try to downplay Laine. The narrative that Matthews is not simply an elite player but a near generational player while Laine is a one-dimensional winger, will not translate to the NHL, is inferior to Puljujarvi, etc was only developed by a small but vocal group of homers after the draft lottery. You'll notice that the loudest detractors are members of a single fanbase. It doesn't reflect the views of most knowledgeable people.

I think most neutral fans agree that while Matthews is a better player, that doesn't take anything away from Laine's skill and potential.

As far as Laine's WJC performance - I think that the majority of people would agree that he and Puljujarvi outplayed Matthews. The difference between the Finnish and US team is exaggerated. The Finnish team had one more goal in the tournament than the US team. Again - the narrative that Matthews was better was created after the draft lottery.

And the majority of people would agree that Matthews outplayed Laine at the WHC--including Pronman who was one of the only people to have Laine as #1.

International tournaments although useful, don't really say much about any player considering they're just a small handful of games.

And I agree that downplaying Laine is not constructive to any discussion. However, I don't think most people take umbridge with Laine's abilities. I think people in the Auston Matthews thread get testy when Laine fans come in here and start claiming that Laine will clearly be a better offensive player when there's very, very little to support that. Then the conversation mutates into a "who's better overall" and the Laine > Matthews comments start coming in and the whole thread gets incredibly dumber and unnecessary.

 

[TheKrebsCycle]

At WJC? Nope - it was the Leafs homers who came up with that one after the draft lottery.



Button also said that Strome, Dvorak, Provorov, and Connor were better prospects than Marner. Weird that he wasn't as smart as the HF experts then.

Not sure he was better in the WJC, was pretty close imo, but I definitely preferred Matthews performance in the WHC. Had USA gotten to the finals (instead of their unexpected appearance in the semis) he absolutely would have been in the MVP conversation. Had truly dominant stretches. In reality Granlund or Shipachyov were the correct MVP choices. Matthews domination in the NLA was staggering. The leagues are close in quality (4th and 5th best league respectively) despite the effort to minimize the NLA due to Matthews vastly superior performance.

 

[Emerz]

Every time I've watched him play, I've come away impressed with his strong 2 way game. I don't remember the last highly touted forward prospect who showed such defensive awareness the age of 18...perhaps you can name a few?

Dubois is one, likely has Matthews beat in that specific area.

 

[BWDude]

Dubois is one, likely has Matthews beat in that specific area.

Hmm... interesting. Is this sentiment based on something or is it just a shot in the dark? Because defensive ability is quite hard to judge at these levels and when I watched them both Dubois didn't really show any outstanding defensive prowess against CHLers more than that I saw from my viewings of Matthews.

Just wondering, is it because since Matthews is better offensively he cant be better defensively? Matthews has an uncanny ability to win a high percentage of board battles and come out with the puck, I found that that make him a player that is very difficult to hem in the offensive zone.

 

[TDK67]

Dubois is one, likely has Matthews beat in that specific area.

"#1 PLD Fanboy"?

Let's see PLD's defense against competition other than the CHL before saying he's better defensively than Matthews.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

And the majority of people would agree that Matthews outplayed Laine at the WHC--including Pronman who was one of the only people to have Laine as #1.

International tournaments although useful, don't really say much about any player considering they're just a small handful of games.

And I agree that downplaying Laine is not constructive to any discussion. However, I don't think most people take umbridge with Laine's abilities. I think people in the Auston Matthews thread get testy when Laine fans come in here and start claiming that Laine will clearly be a better offensive player when there's very, very little to support that. Then the conversation mutates into a "who's better overall" and the Laine > Matthews comments start coming in and the whole thread gets incredibly dumber and unnecessary.

I don't think the "majority" of people agree Matthews was better than Laine at WHC.

There is nothing wrong with saying that Laine is better offensively than Matthews. It isn't a ridiculous statement at all. There are a small group of Leafs fans who get angry whenever anyone says that another player is better than Matthews in any respect (you being an excellent example of the phenomenon). That is where the ridiculous hostility is generated from. Not people who think Laine has a better shot.

 

[Liminality]

I don't think the "majority" of people agree Matthews was better than Laine at WHC.

There is nothing wrong with saying that Laine is better offensively than Matthews. It isn't a ridiculous statement at all. There are a small group of Leafs fans who get angry whenever anyone says that another player is better than Matthews in any respect (you being an excellent example of the phenomenon). That is where the ridiculous hostility is generated from. Not people who think Laine has a better shot.

You're right. There's also nothing wrong with people saying that Matthews is better offensively than Laine.

Personally I think Laine's shot is amazing, specifically his one timer. Matthews' shot isn't as refined as Laine's but I think Matthews beats him in a lot of other areas offensively.

 

[TDK67]

I don't think the "majority" of people agree Matthews was better than Laine at WHC.

There is nothing wrong with saying that Laine is better offensively than Matthews. It isn't a ridiculous statement at all. There are a small group of Leafs fans who get angry whenever anyone says that another player is better than Matthews in any respect (you being an excellent example of the phenomenon). That is where the ridiculous hostility is generated from. Not people who think Laine has a better shot.

My bad. Forgive me for challenging the opinion-stated-as-fact that "Laine is better offensively than Matthews" by you and others. If my thorough, patient, and well reasoned response was too "hostile" for you, you're welcome to go elsewhere or ignore it.

When you and others resort to attacking the poster (by name-calling and putting words in people's mouths) instead of attacking the argument then it's clear you have nothing of substance to contribute. That's also against site rules but whatever.

Anyway, we're done here unless you want to talk in a more thoughtful and respectful manner than you have so far.

 

[ijuka]

Dubois is one, likely has Matthews beat in that specific area.

It always makes me wonder what the scouts see as when I watch Matthews play I actually consider his defensive awareness his weakness. He also definitely is not a defense-first center like Kopitar, Bergeron and the like were. I actually don't understand this "defensive two-way player"-narrative at all. Defensive responsibilities are a part of being a center, performing your role doesn't mean you are a "defensive center". If you cannot defend as a center you are deficient.

As for when the last time a highly touted prospect displayed such defensive awareness was, I'd pick an actual defense-first center: Barkov. Although, I could just go with the cop out and pick Connor McDavid even if defensive play isn't his greatest strength.