Burke out - Good or Bad?

[charliolemieux]

So Burke was finished before he even started huh? Now I've heard everything.

NOw that we know he was only going to get 3.8years to rebuild the team then damn straight he was finished from the start.

YOU all laugh that he said he could fix it under 5. The objective people said it would take 7 years. (Nonis didn't get hired because he said it would take 5 years to rebuild and that was BEFORE JFJ)

So he had been given barley 1/2 of the time most said it would take and he is gone.

Did he ever have a chance?

Steen would sure have been nice to have the last 4 seasons. Might have changed a lot of things.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Bad

I miss him.

 

[Tak7]

NOw that we know he was only going to get 3.8years to rebuild the team then damn straight he was finished from the start.

YOU all laugh that he said he could fix it under 5. The objective people said it would take 7 years. (Nonis didn't get hired because he said it would take 5 years to rebuild and that was BEFORE JFJ)

So he had been given barley 1/2 of the time most said it would take and he is gone.

Did he ever have a chance?

Steen would sure have been nice to have the last 4 seasons. Might have changed a lot of things.

Two points in response to your post.

First - while there are a few examples of it being done, generally speaking turning a bottom feeder into a cup contender takes a lot more than 5 years to do. I do agree that Burke didn't have enough time to turn this entire thing around

Second - Five years is still a long time though. And more specifically, so is the best part of 4 years, which is the time that Burke had at the helm. The problem isn't that Burke wasn't given enough time - it was that there wasn't enough progress shown by the team in that 4 year span.

While no one is going to turn a crap-shoot into a contender in 4-years, that is still a very long amount of time to start showing a bit of progress.

When you factor in where this team finished last season, and what it's talent & prospect pool looks like, I'd argue that we are marginally better than we were before Burke arrived.

I'm sorry, but even as a Burke-apologist as I've been called many times here in the past, marginally better is not good enough for 4 years.

 

[achtungbaby]

NOw that we know he was only going to get 3.8years to rebuild the team then damn straight he was finished from the start.

YOU all laugh that he said he could fix it under 5. The objective people said it would take 7 years. (Nonis didn't get hired because he said it would take 5 years to rebuild and that was BEFORE JFJ)

So he had been given barley 1/2 of the time most said it would take and he is gone.

Did he ever have a chance?

Steen would sure have been nice to have the last 4 seasons. Might have changed a lot of things.

Oh oh, it sounds like someone is using the much hated hindsight.

Burke wasn't objective in his own asessments then?

 

[AvroArrow]

Look at the team he inherited and what he turned it into. Yeah we never made the playoffs under Burke, but he did some amazing things while he was here. Got Lupul + Gardiner for beauchemin....Dion Phaneuf for 3 nobodies and ian white. Have a strong pool of prospects.

This organization was as bad as it could possibly be and he made some major turn arounds. Look at what he did in Vancouver, got both the Sedins, Salo, Nonis acquired Luongo and made them a serious contender. Now this joke of a GM Gillis gets all the credit ? Burke put the pieces in place for them and made them who they are and he was doing the same here. Maybe not tomorrow, or a year from now but when players like Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner are ready to step in we'll all be in debt to Burke.

Completely against this firing, stupid timing and a stupid decision.

 

[charliolemieux]

Two points in response to your post.

First - while there are a few examples of it being done, generally speaking turning a bottom feeder into a cup contender takes a lot more than 5 years to do. I do agree that Burke didn't have enough time to turn this entire thing around

Second - Five years is still a long time though. And more specifically, so is the best part of 4 years, which is the time that Burke had at the helm. The problem isn't that Burke wasn't given enough time - it was that there wasn't enough progress shown by the team in that 4 year span.

While no one is going to turn a crap-shoot into a contender in 4-years, that is still a very long amount of time to start showing a bit of progress.

When you factor in where this team finished last season, and what it's talent & prospect pool looks like, I'd argue that we are marginally better than we were before Burke arrived.

I'm sorry, but even as a Burke-apologist as I've been called many times here in the past, marginally better is not good enough for 4 years.

When everyone with vision good enough to earn a drivers license, said the team is atleast 7 years away from contending, you are still fine with letting him go?


How to quantify the result?

Well we have more 1st round picks in this franchise than if we had kept every 1st round pick for more than the last decade. That is after 2 1sts were traded days before Burke.
And 1 for Toskala and 1 for Rask.

That includes trading former 1st, Tlusty, Antropov, and STajan who were Burke trades.


BUt I guess you are right.

Apparently all the moves I have been giving Burke credit for have been made by Nonis. So I guess the guy who has been actually running the team for the last few years, is finally given the title.

Gives me a big smile watching the Anti Burke crowd crow about Nonis. I am setting +/- at 14 games before there is an organized anti Nonis faction.

 

[charliolemieux]

Oh oh, it sounds like someone is using the much hated hindsight.

Just stating the facts. You think If I had remembered Nonis himself said it would take 5 years with the Muskoka 5 to sell off, I wouldn't have brought that little tid bit up before?

Goes to show how bad the team was. Good Burke defense material.

Burke wasn't objective in his own asessments then?

He sure ****ing turned down his expectations after 2009-10.

Burke misjudged the team in 2008-09. They were playing like scared rabbits infront of BUrke. 09-10 wasn't the same.

 

[diceman934]

YA and they usually had 1 or 2 blue chippers in the system and a top 5 pick that summer.

This team was completely screwed.
BUrke even got one last kick in the nuts as Fletcher sold Steen and COli for stempniak.

Useless player for a D-man that could have gotten a 2nd in return for some one and the player who would be our #1 Center going into the last 3 seasons.

That deal killed Burke more than KESSEL or the entire JFJ tenure, (Sans Muskoka 5). That one last attempt at glory by trader Cliff doomed Burke.

Like Herb Brooks said " You worry about your own game. Plenty there to keep you busy."

Burke's mistakes alone are more then enough to get him fired.....blaming it on Fletcher is a joke.

 

[diceman934]

NOw that we know he was only going to get 3.8years to rebuild the team then damn straight he was finished from the start.

YOU all laugh that he said he could fix it under 5. The objective people said it would take 7 years. (Nonis didn't get hired because he said it would take 5 years to rebuild and that was BEFORE JFJ)

So he had been given barley 1/2 of the time most said it would take and he is gone.

Did he ever have a chance?

Steen would sure have been nice to have the last 4 seasons. Might have changed a lot of things.

When people said it would take 7 years.....no one in their right mind would predict that Burke would tack on more years by making the Kessel trade. He proceeded to add more years on to the rebuild.....yet he thought that he could do it in a couple of years.

 

[charliolemieux]

Like Herb Brooks said " You worry about your own game. Plenty there to keep you busy."

Burke's mistakes alone are more then enough to get him fired.....blaming it on Fletcher is a joke.

Fletcher was only the death blow.

Wouldn't expect you to understand.

But Steen would have solved our #1 center problem the last 4 years.

HE is good enough to play against the leagues best. Bozak is not.

 

[alcanalz]

Fletcher was only the death blow.

Wouldn't expect you to understand.

But Steen would have solved our #1 center problem the last 4 years.

HE is good enough to play against the leagues best. Bozak is not.

You are probably the exact type of person who was clamouring for Steen to get traded years ago, saying he was a bust.

Regardless, no, Steen never has and never will be a number one.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Look at the team he inherited and what he turned it into. Yeah we never made the playoffs under Burke, but he did some amazing things while he was here. Got Lupul + Gardiner for beauchemin....Dion Phaneuf for 3 nobodies and ian white. Have a strong pool of prospects.

This organization was as bad as it could possibly be and he made some major turn arounds. Look at what he did in Vancouver, got both the Sedins, Salo, Nonis acquired Luongo and made them a serious contender. Now this joke of a GM Gillis gets all the credit ? Burke put the pieces in place for them and made them who they are and he was doing the same here. Maybe not tomorrow, or a year from now but when players like Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner are ready to step in we'll all be in debt to Burke.

Completely against this firing, stupid timing and a stupid decision.

In four years Burke didn't improve team offense (still 10th in the league), didn't improve team defense (were 29th in the league last year) standings (dropped from 7th last to 5th last) and lower rated prospects according to pretty much everybody other than leaf fans.

Wouldn't those 4 things be the most important things? Team offense, team defense, standings, and prospects?

And all four of those things got WORSE!!!

How could anybody possibly call his reign of terror a success?

 

[charliolemieux]

When people said it would take 7 years.....no one in their right mind would predict that Burke would tack on more years by making the Kessel trade. He proceeded to add more years on to the rebuild.....yet he thought that he could do it in a couple of years.

Everything being equal:


We are basically just as close with Kessel as we would have been with Seguin, Knight and Hamilton.

We would need a #1 winger, and a #1G instead of a #1C and a #1G.

IF Fletcher had not traded Steen, we would only need a #1G. So ya that trade is a huge one even though it gets over looked next to the Rask and Toskala and Kessel trades. The only one bigger than the Steen trade is the Rask one.

This team would be in pretty good shape without one JFJ trade and one Cliff trade.

 

[diceman934]

Fletcher was only the death blow.

Wouldn't expect you to understand.

But Steen would have solved our #1 center problem the last 4 years.

HE is good enough to play against the leagues best. Bozak is not.

Here are a few:

Like I said he has more then his fair share of poor trades and signings to deal with before blamimg others:

How about these beauties:
Jiri Tlusty to CAR for the rights to Philippe Paradis

Pavel Kubina and Tim Stapleton to ATL for Garnet Exebly and Colin Stuart


To Toronto: 2011 1st round pick (#22 - Tyler Biggs)

To Anaheim: 2011 1st round pick (#30 - Rickard Rakell), 2011 2nd round pick (#39 - John Gibson) Watching Gibson play in the World Jr's was enough to make me sick!

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Fletcher was only the death blow.

Wouldn't expect you to understand.

But Steen would have solved our #1 center problem the last 4 years.

HE is good enough to play against the leagues best. Bozak is not.

While I agree with you that Steen is a dramatic improvement over Bozak (who is just an ahl player), I vehemently disagree that Fletcher was the route of all of Burke's problems.

Let's remember that it was also Fletcher who brought in our only competent center who has scored around 30 goals two years in a row.

You make an absolute pathetic amount of excuses for this man.
Why is that?

 

[charliolemieux]

You are probably the exact type of person who was clamouring for Steen to get traded years ago, saying he was a bust.

Regardless, no, Steen never has and never will be a number one.

NOt a chance big guy!

I liked Steen and Coli. TOR youth was the best it had been in my memory. Was loving it. Thanks Pat.

I will agree I didn't see Steen as a replacment for Sundin but can you deny he would not be better than Bozak?

He can check other #1's while PK an JL score. Which is all we need. THink Morrison between Bert and Naslund.

Man you don't know me at all.

 

[charliolemieux]

While I agree with you that Steen is a dramatic improvement over Bozak (who is just an ahl player), I vehemently disagree that Fletcher was the route of all of Burke's problems.

Let's remember that it was also Fletcher who brought in our only competent center who has scored around 30 goals two years in a row.

You make an absolute pathetic amount of excuses for this man.
Why is that?

NOt saying Fletcher was root of all Burke's problems. The Root was a combo of the the Muskoka 5 and the ownership during JFJ's tenure.

Ownership forced JFJ to move Rask.
Fletcher is one last attempt at glory traded Steen.

There solves this teams #1C and #1G problems.

With just Rask being kept there is a good chance JFJ is still GM in thie town.

 

[charliolemieux]

Here are a few:

Like I said he has more then his fair share of poor trades and signings to deal with before blamimg others:

How about these beauties:
Jiri Tlusty to CAR for the rights to Philippe Paradis

Pavel Kubina and Tim Stapleton to ATL for Garnet Exebly and Colin Stuart


To Toronto: 2011 1st round pick (#22 - Tyler Biggs)

To Anaheim: 2011 1st round pick (#30 - Rickard Rakell), 2011 2nd round pick (#39 - John Gibson) Watching Gibson play in the World Jr's was enough to make me sick!

Buddy every time I pick up the paper another BURKE TRADE has become a NONIS TRADE. So it really don't matter to me what trade was made I am sitting back laughing my arse off at the people happy BUrke is gone and Nonis is in.

 

[diceman934]

Buddy every time I pick up the paper another BURKE TRADE has become a NONIS TRADE. So it really don't matter to me what trade was made I am sitting back laughing my arse off at the people happy BUrke is gone and Nonis is in.

Can I have some of that stuff you are smoking while reading those newspapers....

FYI: No where did I post that I'm happy with the Nonis as our GM.....should have been interim IMHO.....and see what the season brings.

 

[BayStBullies]

If they replace him with Nonis ... Nonis = worst GM in Canucks history

None managed to win a cup there; low bar to reach.

 

[charliolemieux]

Can I have some of that stuff you are smoking while reading those newspapers....

FYI: No where did I post that I'm happy with the Nonis as our GM.....should have been interim IMHO.....and see what the season brings.

Wouldn't you rather learn to read?

I would suggest you partake in some of the available media. It sounds like Nonis has been the real GM since he got here.



Right your just happy with Burke being gone.

Well apparently Burke was nonis or nonis was burke or...doesnt really matter they are basically one and the same but keep being happy Burke got fired.

 

[diceman934]

Wouldn't you rather learn to read?

I would suggest you partake in some of the available media. It sounds like Nonis has been the real GM since he got here.



Right your just happy with Burke being gone.

Well apparently Burke was nonis or nonis was burke or...doesnt really matter they are basically one and the same but keep being happy Burke got fired.

I can read, it seems that it's you that has a comprehension issue.....Burke always had the final say on everything.

You go back into hibernation for another few months....we will wake you when spring comes, Ok Yogi?

 

[charliolemieux]

I can read, it seems that it's you that has a comprehension issue.....Burke always had the final say on everything.

You go back into hibernation for another few months....we will wake you when spring comes, Ok Yogi?

Wouldn't know it.

BUt Nonis wa the architect of the Phaneuf deal. He was responsible for the Lupul deal.

Seem like he has been doing the GM things.

But keep enjoying Burkes firing.

Don't worry. THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE!

 

[TheGreat]

No.

Dave Nonis is the GM.

Burke is a washed up, over-rated wannabe.

And Anselmi is going to make sure Nonis doesn't **** up as bad as Burke.

How is He going make sure, Did miss something .... Whats Anselmi Hockey Knowledge ?

This Anselmi seems alot like Peddie and do you remember those days??? I Do selling off prospects & picks just to get into the playoffs (for Playoff revenue)

I pray it does not turn into those days again... (of course i am going to give them a chance though. Hopefully they Build it right this time )

And this article http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=413255

Sum ups leafs .. ITS HARD TO SALLOW but its SO TRUE

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Wouldn't know it.

BUt Nonis wa the architect of the Phaneuf deal. He was responsible for the Lupul deal.

Seem like he has been doing the GM things.

But keep enjoying Burkes firing.

Don't worry. THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE!

So what exactly did Burke do that made you like him so much?