News Article: Bullying and backstabbing: the Ottawa Senators are pro sport's biggest mess

[Micklebot]

I think you are exactly right. Slash salaries, revenue sharing more than help offset an empty building. He is like a cockroach. Almost indestructible with the way things are setup right now

This year won't be a problem, but what happens next year when he is no longer saving based on bonuses paid by other teams? I guess we could try and trade for new players who's bonuses have been paid, but I imagine there's only so many times you can go to that well before it dries up.
We're not going to have LTIRetired contracts forever either, we'll have to find more of those. Maybe buy out some 35+ contracts...

Strategically, it should be a really good for the tank to have an actual payroll so far below the cap. Hopefully we come away with a top 3 pick next draft, a top 2 might be enough to drive some positive momentum so long as they manage to keep away from any more PR disasters in the meantime and Melnyk goes into a witness relocation program (or better yet sells).

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Hard to say. Teams have a lot of fixed revenue streams; we get about 40 mil in USD from tv deals alone. .

Just wondering why you'd say the local and national TV broadcast rights, would be in US Dollars......... are you Converting the reported deals, in CDN Dollars, into US Dollars?

WOW! Ottawa Senators TV deal worth up to $400M


https://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/ottawa-senators-sign-12-year-deal-with-tsn-1.1661486

I'm actually surprised at how high the reported revenue was for 2016/17 & 2017/18 seasons.

 

[Stylizer1]

I’m not sure I’m buying the idea that this team is going to be making money next year.

Of all the years to be turning a profit...

How much does 20 mill equal in season tickets?

4000?

 

[Micklebot]

Just wondering why you'd say the local and national TV broadcast rights, would be in US Dollars......... are you Converting the reported deals, in CDN Dollars, into US Dollars?

WOW! Ottawa Senators TV deal worth up to $400M


https://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/ottawa-senators-sign-12-year-deal-with-tsn-1.1661486

I'm actually surprised at how high the reported revenue was for 2016/17 & 2017/18 seasons.

I said "about" because I was converting the two Canadian deals from CAD to USD.

3 TV deals, 2 in CAD and 1 in USD

US national, 2 billion over 10 years, split across 31 teams. About 6.45 mil per team

Cdn national, 5.2 billion over 12 years, split across 31 teams, just shy of 14 mil CAD converted at a very conservative .7 (current rate is .76 and bank of Canada 2018 average was .77) is 9.78 Mil USD
Regional deal is 400 mil over 12 years, or 33.33 mil CAD per year or roughly 23.3 Mil USD

All that together comes to 39.56 mil USD. If you bump the rate of exchange up to last year's average you get 42.88 USD.

 

[Stylizer1]

As I tried to outline upthread, Melnyk has cash flow issues and needs the team to be running at least minimally in the black. Other owners might not care if they take a few millions in losses in a given year because they have other revenue sources associated with the team/building that cover that, but a) Melnyk doesn't have those revenue sources and b) Melnyk doesn't have the liquidity to allow this to happen.

Once you understand this all of the other decisions make sense in that light. This isn't about him lining his pockets or about driving the team in to the ground, it is about running a sports team the only way that an owner with no liquidity and no other revenue streams in a small market can operate when the team is in a downturn.

For example: he's got agents for stars demanding big contracts with up-front bonuses. Meanwhile the team on the ice and in the front office is a dumpster fire and gate and merch revenue are way down and projected to get worse. What to do? Sign some players and hope things turn around? Nope, too risky, too much chance of ending up way in the red and not being able to meet payroll. Instead we dump those players, acquire cheaper ones or draft picks and make deals that drive down your actual out of pocket salary expenses as low as possible so you end up back in a positive cash flow situation. Then slap an "Ottawa Rising" coat of paint on the whole thing and send Dorion out to fumble around at the microphone proclaiming "rebuild" with every 3rd word out of his mouth.

Yeah, like I said.

 

[Micklebot]

How much does 20 mill equal in season tickets?

4000?

Would depend on which seats get sold. At an average of $54 per ticket (if I recall that's what Forbes had us estimated at) we'd get about 9 mil from 4k in season tickets, but from what I understand the season ticket sales are skewed to the more expensive seats. For 4 k in season tickets to be 20 mil in rev, we'd be selling the tickets at an average of $120 a ticket which their pricing guide suggests is the lower end of 100 tickets (you can get home ice end cheaper) when purchased as a Full season pack. About half of the 200 section is also around that price.

Idk, I think 20 mil is high for 4k season tickets... I just don't know the ratio of where the Season tickets are sold.

 

[Stylizer1]

Would depend on which seats get sold. At an average of $54 per ticket (if I recall that's what Forbes had us estimated at) we'd get about 9 mil from 4k in season tickets, but from what I understand the season ticket sales are skewed to the more expensive seats. For 4 k in season tickets to be 20 mil in rev, we'd be selling the tickets at an average of $120 a ticket which their pricing guide suggests is the lower end of 100 tickets (you can get home ice end cheaper) when purchased as a Full season pack. About half of the 200 section is also around that price.

Idk, I think 20 mil is high for 4k season tickets... I just don't know the ratio of where the Season tickets are sold.

I was just guesstamating. Still makes up a hefty chunk and would be a perfect time to give away a lot of tickets to at least give the illusion the fans are back and make some money off concessions.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

As I tried to outline upthread, Melnyk has cash flow issues and needs the team to be running at least minimally in the black. Other owners might not care if they take a few millions in losses in a given year because they have other revenue sources associated with the team/building that cover that, but a) Melnyk doesn't have those revenue sources and b) Melnyk doesn't have the liquidity to allow this to happen.

Once you understand this all of the other decisions make sense in that light. This isn't about him lining his pockets or about driving the team in to the ground, it is about running a sports team the only way that an owner with no liquidity and no other revenue streams in a small market can operate when the team is in a downturn.

For example: he's got agents for stars demanding big contracts with up-front bonuses. Meanwhile the team on the ice and in the front office is a dumpster fire and gate and merch revenue are way down and projected to get worse. What to do? Sign some players and hope things turn around? Nope, too risky, too much chance of ending up way in the red and not being able to meet payroll. Instead we dump those players, acquire cheaper ones or draft picks and make deals that drive down your actual out of pocket salary expenses as low as possible so you end up back in a positive cash flow situation. Then slap an "Ottawa Rising" coat of paint on the whole thing and send Dorion out to fumble around at the microphone proclaiming "rebuild" with every 3rd word out of his mouth.

good post. but I am trying to imagine how that goes...

Rebuild . lip smack. Rebuild. lip smack. Rebuild. Proudest Day. lip smack. Hugs and High Fives. Lip smack. Hockey decisions run through me. Lip smack. Rebuild. Lip smack. I would like to thank Thomas Chabot for his services as an Ottawa Sentator. Lip Smack.

 

[JD1]

Would depend on which seats get sold. At an average of $54 per ticket (if I recall that's what Forbes had us estimated at) we'd get about 9 mil from 4k in season tickets, but from what I understand the season ticket sales are skewed to the more expensive seats. For 4 k in season tickets to be 20 mil in rev, we'd be selling the tickets at an average of $120 a ticket which their pricing guide suggests is the lower end of 100 tickets (you can get home ice end cheaper) when purchased as a Full season pack. About half of the 200 section is also around that price.

Idk, I think 20 mil is high for 4k season tickets... I just don't know the ratio of where the Season tickets are sold.

My 200 section tickets averaged out < 100.

 

[Stylizer1]

My 200 section tickets averaged out < 100.

4000 seats x 4000$ = 16 million

Not too far off. We can at least say its within the range.

 

[coladin]

This year won't be a problem, but what happens next year when he is no longer saving based on bonuses paid by other teams? I guess we could try and trade for new players who's bonuses have been paid, but I imagine there's only so many times you can go to that well before it dries up.
We're not going to have LTIRetired contracts forever either, we'll have to find more of those. Maybe buy out some 35+ contracts...

Strategically, it should be a really good for the tank to have an actual payroll so far below the cap. Hopefully we come away with a top 3 pick next draft, a top 2 might be enough to drive some positive momentum so long as they manage to keep away from any more PR disasters in the meantime and Melnyk goes into a witness relocation program (or better yet sells).

I really think that Dorion and management believe in the pieces that are in the system. I think what they are doing is the correct way to do it. Problem is , the fans think they are insincere. They are not rebuilding because the stars were getting paid and were a last place team. Rather, it is about saving money.

I don’t dwell on that. True or not, rebuilds are about young, cheap, pieces that develop into pricey pieces if they are the right players. Or else this team may be bad for a decade

 

[JD1]

I really think that Dorion and management believe in the pieces that are in the system. I think what they are doing is the correct way to do it. Problem is , the fans think they are insincere. They are not rebuilding because the stars were getting paid and were a last place team. Rather, it is about saving money.

I don’t dwell on that. True or not, rebuilds are about young, cheap, pieces that develop into pricey pieces if they are the right players. Or else this team may be bad for a decade

I agree with you that they believe.

I think our worst case situation 3 years from now, based on players we have so not including what we may draft

1 elite pmd - chabot
1 average 1st line winger - tkachuk

An abundance of guys that are ideally suited as middle 6ers, some of them are 2nd liners that get overslotted to 1st line but we've got enough to come up with 8 top 9 guys

2 guys that are establishing themselves as young quality top 4 D - two of Brannstron, Thomson, JBD.

Someone emerges as a middle of the pack 55 game starter type.

I think that's the floor of what we have. We have guys that could emerge as top pair D, guys that could emerge as decent 1st liners.

There is enough quantity there that we have options on having guys hit their ceilings

 

[Yak]

Those of you who read The Athletic they had a breakdown of Real Cash Melynk will be paying this season. "$60,130,833 against the cap while it actually will cost them approximately $45,697,500 in real money. "

You got beleive he is setting himself up for a cash out. The rebuild , the fake completive UFA offers, refinancings, No downtown arena deal. He is running things so lean adding no debt that signs point to a sale at some point or personal bankruptcy.....lol

 

[Micklebot]

My 200 section tickets averaged out < 100.

Yeah, the ends are currently around 90 and the aides are more expensive at 130 (or mabe i have that backwards) at least according to their site, and thats for new members. The bigger question is how many tickets are there at each price point, and how much does club Bell skew things upward.

 

[The Lewler]

Those of you who read The Athletic they had a breakdown of Real Cash Melynk will be paying this season. "$60,130,833 against the cap while it actually will cost them approximately $45,697,500 in real money. "

You got beleive he is setting himself up for a cash out. The rebuild , the fake completive UFA offers, refinancings, No downtown arena deal. He is running things so lean adding no debt that signs point to a sale at some point or personal bankruptcy.....lol

We have been saying this for literally years at this point.

He's more than wealthy enough to just run this thing super lean and shitty for many more years if it is his #1 priority in life.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I said "about" because I was converting the two Canadian deals from CAD to USD.

3 TV deals, 2 in CAD and 1 in USD

US national, 2 billion over 10 years, split across 31 teams. About 6.45 mil per team

Cdn national, 5.2 billion over 12 years, split across 31 teams, just shy of 14 mil CAD converted at a very conservative .7 (current rate is .76 and bank of Canada 2018 average was .77) is 9.78 Mil USD
Regional deal is 400 mil over 12 years, or 33.33 mil CAD per year or roughly 23.3 Mil USD

All that together comes to 39.56 mil USD. If you bump the rate of exchange up to last year's average you get 42.88 USD.

Thank you for the clarification, and filling in the gaps.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Those of you who read The Athletic they had a breakdown of Real Cash Melynk will be paying this season. "$60,130,833 against the cap while it actually will cost them approximately $45,697,500 in real money. "

You got beleive he is setting himself up for a cash out. The rebuild , the fake completive UFA offers, refinancings, No downtown arena deal. He is running things so lean adding no debt that signs point to a sale at some point or personal bankruptcy.....lol

I don't think "you got to believe" he is going to "cash out" because of these cost saving moves he's made over the past three or four seasons.
Sure you can hope this is what he is doing, if you're in camp of those who hate EM and want him gone, and think that another owner(s) is going to come in and be a free spender, when the fundamental financial underpinnings of the the remain the same.

Did Rod Bryden "cash out"?

I don't think so, and yes the financial limitations of operating a NHL franchise in a small Canadian market are not exactly the same today, but as the big boys have found a way to structure contracts to push the smaller markets further down the NHL ladder, and with the CBA coming up for renewal, I see the cost savings strategy more of setting up the franchise to be ready to take advantage of the changes that are surely coming to the next CBA.

I see a few other reasons why there is no pending sale of the team, in the near future.

There is a share of the Seattle expantion fee coming to EM (Not the Franchise) and there's at least 10 more years of life left in the CTC, so there is no real pressing need for the downtown location no matter how much more economically beneficial it would be to the Franchise. After seeing what has happened in two other small Canadian markets, in regards to new arenas and how public money became involved, time is on his side for all these matters.

Now a number of you will label me as a EM lover/supporter or whatever ......... and I'll remind you I'm not, but that won't stop the accusations, as I'm just pointing out what I see as another POV, that does not get expressed here to often ........ as there a lot of those who only see a new owner as the ticket to a revival of the franchise, which would help, but it's not the singular reason the franchise is struggling to compete with the big boys.

 

[harrisb]

Bryden and Melnyk both had one thing in common, they purchased the team, arena and land on a credit card. The hope is that any new owner would have the financial assets to buy the team outright, thus eliminating the massive debt payments which have been our demise since inception.

 

[BatherSeason]

I don't think "you got to believe" he is going to "cash out" because of these cost saving moves he's made over the past three or four seasons.
Sure you can hope this is what he is doing, if you're in camp of those who hate EM and want him gone, and think that another owner(s) is going to come in and be a free spender, when the fundamental financial underpinnings of the the remain the same.

Did Rod Bryden "cash out"?

I don't think so, and yes the financial limitations of operating a NHL franchise in a small Canadian market are not exactly the same today, but as the big boys have found a way to structure contracts to push the smaller markets further down the NHL ladder, and with the CBA coming up for renewal, I see the cost savings strategy more of setting up the franchise to be ready to take advantage of the changes that are surely coming to the next CBA.

I see a few other reasons why there is no pending sale of the team, in the near future.

There is a share of the Seattle expantion fee coming to EM (Not the Franchise) and there's at least 10 more years of life left in the CTC, so there is no real pressing need for the downtown location no matter how much more economically beneficial it would be to the Franchise. After seeing what has happened in two other small Canadian markets, in regards to new arenas and how public money became involved, time is on his side for all these matters.

Now a number of you will label me as a EM lover/supporter or whatever ......... and I'll remind you I'm not, but that won't stop the accusations, as I'm just pointing out what I see as another POV, that does not get expressed here to often ........ as there a lot of those who only see a new owner as the ticket to a revival of the franchise, which would help, but it's not the singular reason the franchise is struggling to compete with the big boys.

This isn't "another point of view" it's the exact same one that you have preached for months.

Nobody expects a new owner to spend with the big boys. We deserve an owner who attempts to put a competitive team on the ice and shows the ability to retain players. Pretty simple.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I don't think "you got to believe" he is going to "cash out" because of these cost saving moves he's made over the past three or four seasons.
Sure you can hope this is what he is doing, if you're in camp of those who hate EM and want him gone, and think that another owner(s) is going to come in and be a free spender, when the fundamental financial underpinnings of the the remain the same.

Did Rod Bryden "cash out"?

I don't think so, and yes the financial limitations of operating a NHL franchise in a small Canadian market are not exactly the same today, but as the big boys have found a way to structure contracts to push the smaller markets further down the NHL ladder, and with the CBA coming up for renewal, I see the cost savings strategy more of setting up the franchise to be ready to take advantage of the changes that are surely coming to the next CBA.

I see a few other reasons why there is no pending sale of the team, in the near future.

There is a share of the Seattle expantion fee coming to EM (Not the Franchise) and there's at least 10 more years of life left in the CTC, so there is no real pressing need for the downtown location no matter how much more economically beneficial it would be to the Franchise. After seeing what has happened in two other small Canadian markets, in regards to new arenas and how public money became involved, time is on his side for all these matters.

Now a number of you will label me as a EM lover/supporter or whatever ......... and I'll remind you I'm not, but that won't stop the accusations, as I'm just pointing out what I see as another POV, that does not get expressed here to often ........ as there a lot of those who only see a new owner as the ticket to a revival of the franchise, which would help, but it's not the singular reason the franchise is struggling to compete with the big boys.

In regards to your last comment, you lose a lot of credibility by saying things like the bolded. In one fell swoop you've waved your hand away at every argument other than spending being issues while many have outlined that's not even at the top of the list. Budget teams can be run properly within their bubble too, it doesn't have to be doomed to amateur hour.

 

[coladin]

I agree with you that they believe.

I think our worst case situation 3 years from now, based on players we have so not including what we may draft

1 elite pmd - chabot
1 average 1st line winger - tkachuk

An abundance of guys that are ideally suited as middle 6ers, some of them are 2nd liners that get overslotted to 1st line but we've got enough to come up with 8 top 9 guys

2 guys that are establishing themselves as young quality top 4 D - two of Brannstron, Thomson, JBD.

Someone emerges as a middle of the pack 55 game starter type.

I think that's the floor of what we have. We have guys that could emerge as top pair D, guys that could emerge as decent 1st liners.

There is enough quantity there that we have options on having guys hit their ceilings

No doubt, we need a couple of surprises to help the rebuild. Or this could take a while. I am not a fan in rebuilds because the majority fail. You need a good dose of luck as well.

 

[topshelf15]

You only get what you put into things,EM puts in nickels and expects dollars....Cant run a nhl team like this,the fans wont be coming back until they see a genuine effort from management to put a winner on the ice....Its been over 5 seasons of penny pinching ,so if he doesnt have the money by now ...He wont ever

 

[GrantLemons]

In regards to your last comment, you lose a lot of credibility by saying things like the bolded. In one fell swoop you've waved your hand away at every argument other than spending being issues while many have outlined that's not even at the top of the list. Budget teams can be run properly within their bubble too, it doesn't have to be doomed to amateur hour.

Yea I love being generalized by him as one of the neanderthals that wants a new owner who will simply make it rain like Steve Ballmer on the Clippers.

We need an owner who knows how to run a business. The two little girls at the end of my street running their lemonade stand could run the Sens better than Eugene right now.

Say what you will about all of the challenges in this market. If you're doing jack shit to address and mitigate those challenges, he doesn't deserve any sympathy.

That's exactly what he's doing. Nothing. He's sitting on his hands and slashing payroll to the bone because he knows revenues are probably going to be trash because the team hasn't done anything tangible to bolster current revenue streams or open up new ones.

But yea, let's just keep throwing money at this guy and hope things magically change.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Yea I love being generalized by him as one of the neanderthals that wants a new owner who will simply make it rain like Steve Ballmer on the Clippers.

We need an owner who knows how to run a business. The two little girls at the end of my street running their lemonade stand could run the Sens better than Eugene right now.

Say what you will about all of the challenges in this market. If you're doing jack **** to address and mitigate those challenges, he's not getting any sympathy.

That's exactly what he's doing. Nothing. He's sitting on his hands and slashing payroll to the bone because he knows revenues are probably going to be trash because the team hasn't done anything tangible to bolster current revenue streams or open up new ones.

But yea, let's just keep throwing money at this guy and hope things magically change.

I mean the comment was put there by them to elicit a response either way, so whatever, but ya there's just too much else to the story to just brush it all off as irrelevant like that and it's ironic that both those statements were in the same post.

It's obviously not just about overall spending, but momentary financial flexibility as well. Chabot being signed or not will tell us a lot about that situation. I don't know how anyone is optimistic about Melnyk being able and willing to shell out up to 20 mil in bonuses in a year or two.

I'd like to see some budget shifting and philosophy change on hiring for one. Try some qualified executive, management and coaching peeps rather than always hiring only out of the small pool of the cheapest options you can find. This goes for pr and marketing as well. The quality of work out of their offices is just flat out amateur, they look like a AA ball club with nothing but a couple 35k a year employees calling all the shots. Bring in one more cap circumvention contract to make it work if you have too.

 

[Stylizer1]

I get saving money during the lean times but he started that 5 seasons ago when we had a solid core of young talent. It was managements inability to stay the coarse and make smart moves which led to an imbalanced roster with no leadership. And then they were promoted?