Buffalo Sabres GM Candidates ?

[SnuggaRUDE]

What’s the false dichotomy?

Yep, Murray successfully executed the tank. He got good returns on the guys he dumped and had nothing of value on the roster other Girgs and Myers. He used his super draft supplies to bring in Eichel and Reinhart, Kane, Bogo, McGinn, Lehner and O’Reilly.

I know, some of that missed some hit. But it’s not like Murray tore it down and didn’t build solid pieces.

But again the point is not that Murray was perfect, he was far from it.

The point was he had a real plan. Saying Botts plan was to fix the defense, is not a plan. It’s just something that should be always tinkered with, and was something Murray was doing too. Getting Dahlin is the only thing that has legitimately improved this defense, and that was clearly not the plan.

When I say status quo regarding Skinner, I’m not saying it was not a good move, in general, I’m saying it didn’t improve the team compared to Murray because it was just replacing Kane’s production, nothing more.

I don’t see how Murray left Botts nothingbto work with. He gave him 3 all stars and a budding all star at forward. He gave him Risto. And he didn’t waste any of his future draft picks. And one of Murray’s prospects was a main piece in the Montour trade. As are the most promising pieces in Rochester, that has everyone so excited about the farm team development. I mean c’mon, Asplund, Olofsson, and Guhle are/were huge pieces of that team.

Substantively, in two years, the only consistent good player that Botts has brought to the nhl team over and beyond what Murray left him, is Dahlin because of luck that Murray never got.

Again, what you have seen so far is not indicative of a plan.

What did Murray leave the team that could be used to trade for assets without trading off the NHL squad? Asplund, Olofsson and Guhle are not going to get consistent good players. Murray was given multiple additional high draft picks, and the opportunity to liquidate assets like Molson (before shitting the bed), and Miller. The Sum total of the Sabres bottom 6 won't return a single 'consistently good player'.

Murray traded out Myers, Zadorov, Compher. He brought in a high price tag UFA, Botts can't bring in a huge UFA because Okposo and Molson were eating that cap space. Murray brought in Kane, but only through 2018. He was gone this season, and that wouldn't be different if Murray was still GM.

 

[OkimLom]

This is how the false dichotomy creeps in. Murray was given an unprecedented amount of draft picks. He threw a party with them carrying out 'his plan'. He didn't leave anyone to come after him much to work without outside of the talent on the roster. Kane was walking in FA. Skinner as a GM action is not status quo that's completely underselling the move.

From what I can tell Botts plan was fixing the defense which dragged the team down the previous 4 years; by making it more mobile to fit the 5 man units most teams are currently using. Murray's was get RoR to shelter Jack and use Kane as a power forward. Both GMs picked a string of horrifically bad coaches and then stuck by them too long.

When Murray was hired, the reason why he went after Kane was because he felt, in order to get talent, you need to have talent. Kane at the time was a talented player. The same could be said about ROR as well. Lehner was a possibility, and the reason he went after him was because he thought he was talented. To say he didn't leave anybody to work with, is a complete joke. The joke is what Botts did with Kane and ROR which are both talented players. These were pieces already established in the league that were young and hitting their prime. I know this board is all about the futures but those two guys, if shopped would bring in a decent haul. Botts WASTED those two pieces.

Not only were they pieces that were valuable in the future, but they were valuable to the development of our players as they took roles and places in the lineup to allow prospects to develop overseas or in other leagues, and not need to be on the Amerks right away, which means prospects are not rushed with the risk of being on the big club right away. Kane took up the spot to allow Nylander to develop in Rochester. He could've been used later to bring in more prospects to build the cupboards, when Nylander was closer to the big club in development, restocking said prospect pool via trade, or signed to the club longer term.

Murray also stocked the team with a group of veterans that would insulate and support the young players. They were there for development purposes as well, most likely replaced via free agency or prospects. Murray wanted to build a heavy team, with heavy possession. Bylsma came in and couldn't coach that type of game, so Murray switched up his game plan, because his coach wanted to run a dump and chase game focused on speed. I don't agree with the change one bit, but it shows me he was willing to change his direction/plans, but sticking to his foundation plan to fit his coach. Of course the coach hire was horrible which impacted everything, not to mention the injuries we endured as well. It wasn't perfect by any means, but to paint Murray like he had no plan is incorrect as he was pretty blunt, especially in the beginning, with what he wanted to accomplish.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

When Murray was hired, the reason why he went after Kane was because he felt, in order to get talent, you need to have talent. Kane at the time was a talented player. The same could be said about ROR as well. Lehner was a possibility, and the reason he went after him was because he thought he was talented. To say he didn't leave anybody to work with, is a complete joke. The joke is what Botts did with Kane and ROR which are both talented players. These were pieces already established in the league that were young and hitting their prime. I know this board is all about the futures but those two guys, if shopped would bring in a decent haul. Botts WASTED those two pieces.

Not only were they pieces that were valuable in the future, but they were valuable to the development of our players as they took roles and places in the lineup to allow prospects to develop overseas or in other leagues, and not need to be on the Amerks right away, which means prospects are not rushed with the risk of being on the big club right away. Kane took up the spot to allow Nylander to develop in Rochester. He could've been used later to bring in more prospects to build the cupboards, when Nylander was closer to the big club in development, restocking said prospect pool via trade, or signed to the club longer term.

Murray also stocked the team with a group of veterans that would insulate and support the young players. They were there for development purposes as well, most likely replaced via free agency or prospects. Murray wanted to build a heavy team, with heavy possession. Bylsma came in and couldn't coach that type of game, so Murray switched up his game plan, because his coach wanted to run a dump and chase game focused on speed. I don't agree with the change one bit, but it shows me he was willing to change his direction/plans, but sticking to his foundation plan to fit his coach. Of course the coach hire was horrible which impacted everything, not to mention the injuries we endured as well. It wasn't perfect by any means, but to paint Murray like he had no plan is incorrect as he was pretty blunt, especially in the beginning, with what he wanted to accomplish.

What exactly do you think an expiring Kane was going to bring in? He wasn't going to resign in Buffalo. There's no indication that he wanted to stay at all. I also don't see how Murray changed to a speed type of game, but maybe I'm missing some subtly. Reiger left an extra 1st, 2nds, and some players who were going to be obviously liquidated: Miller & Molson most prominently. What extra draft picks was Botts given to go shopping with? Murray was also able to trade Psysk, McNabb, Compher, Armia, and Zadorov out of his inherited prospect pool.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Kane was "wasted" by nobody else but Kane. He alone ruined his trade value with off-ice drama and a stale season prior to his UFA status. Botterill was lucky to end up with a 1st for him. The idea that any GM wanted Kane prior to the TDL (before he went totally stale on-ice) is fantasy land. No GM wanted Kane for any longer than possible, so as to minimize the time of holding that off-ice grenade. Luckily he worked out in SJ, stayed out of drama, etc.

 

[OkimLom]

What exactly do you think an expiring Kane was going to bring in? He wasn't going to resign in Buffalo. There's no indication that he wanted to stay at all. I also don't see how Murray changed to a speed type of game, but maybe I'm missing some subtly. Reiger left an extra 1st, 2nds, and some players who were going to be obviously liquidated: Miller & Molson most prominently. What extra draft picks was Botts given to go shopping with? Murray was also able to trade Psysk, McNabb, Compher, Armia, and Zadorov out of his inherited prospect pool.

If only Murray from 2014 had the hindsight of the results of Botterill in 2017...

 

[sabrebuild]

What did Murray leave the team that could be used to trade for assets without trading off the NHL squad? Asplund, Olofsson and Guhle are not going to get consistent good players. Murray was given multiple additional high draft picks, and the opportunity to liquidate assets like Molson (before ****ting the bed), and Miller. The Sum total of the Sabres bottom 6 won't return a single 'consistently good player'.

Murray traded out Myers, Zadorov, Compher. He brought in a high price tag UFA, Botts can't bring in a huge UFA because Okposo and Molson were eating that cap space. Murray brought in Kane, but only through 2018. He was gone this season, and that wouldn't be different if Murray was still GM.

I don’t understand your point? If Murray had the team so loaded that Botts could trade for superstars out of hand, he wouldn’t have been fired.

But ya he left Botts ammo to make moves. He had Nylander who still had plenty of shine and a great wjc. He had the 8th overall pick. He had quality prospects, and he had actual players on the team.

Yup Moulson and Okposo are bad deals.

But nobody made Botts pickup bad contracts intentionally like Hunwick, Pominville, Berglund and Sobotka. When Botts took over he had two bad contracts. In his two years he got rid of a stud and added 4 additional trash contracts.

Look these are just basic facts. Murray failed. And he left 4 high quality forwards and two bad long term deals.

Botts in two years has worse on ice results, 3 high quality forwards and 1 high quality defender. He has about 5 pretty bad contracts in bad players and it could be even worse if Berglund didn’t quit.

Consider pure luck in this situation as well, just for funnsies.

Imagine this team if they get svech instead of Dahlin. Omg I quit now.

Imagine if Berglund’s contract was still in the books for 3 more years.

Imagine if Murray gets the same luck Botts got and got McDavid instead of Eichel? I bet that difference gets Bylsma to within a game or two of the playoffs in year 1-2.

If a gm job is available in the league in general, the assets available to the Sabres and the roster spots that need augmented was a cherry situation. To act like Murray destroyed the team just doesn’t bear out factually.

 

[Tatanka]

Botts inaction has cratered the team so much I fear that we will simply have to watch them ship out the current relevant talent and hope that the next rebuild works. And yes, I'm talking about Eichel and Reinhart.

And Dahlin

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

Back on topic, So Hunter is the top guy out there available pretty much ?

 

[HaNotsri]

Botts inaction has cratered the team so much I fear that we will simply have to watch them ship out the current relevant talent and hope that the next rebuild works. And yes, I'm talking about Eichel and Reinhart.

He’s building a good d pipeline and keeps our talent in Rochester to avoid the taint of our NHL team. Housley and the suicide trade makes things pretty unbearable But it’s not that bad.

Thompson/Mitts have been disappointments but we are not going to need to rebuild the rebuild of the rebuild. We’ll suck next year as well but after that we will have a balanced roster and a chance to make the playoffs.

 

[Tatanka]

He’s building a good d pipeline and keeps our talent in Rochester to avoid the taint of our NHL team. Housley and the suicide trade makes things pretty unbearable But it’s not that bad.

Thompson/Mitts have been disappointments but we are not going to need to rebuild the rebuild of the rebuild. We’ll suck next year as well but after that we will have a balanced roster and a chance to make the playoffs.

So the plan is to have a chance?

 

[HaNotsri]

So the plan is to have a chance?

If we moved to the western conference we’d have a really good chance.
We have to improve at a faster rate than the other teams in the division/conference. So many good young teams though. A lot of really good teams will miss the playoffs in the coming years.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Not sure this will work. And pardon the commercial.

But when Botts comes up with someone not named Eichel who can score this effortlessly, I'll rejoin the cheerleading squad....

<iframe src='Rantanen's power-play goal' width='540' height='360'></iframe>

 

[Professor Chaos]

To me, Botterill hasn't been the problem. He's put together a functional roster, and has managed the best he could outside of perhaps one trade, and a coaching hire. He's done just as many positives as he has negatives. If you're firing him because of Housley and Ryan O'Reilly, call me cynical.

Functional roster? He turned over half the roster Murray left and we were last in the NHL last season! He then turned half the roster over again and we are en route to a bottom 7,6,5...finish. His roster building has been terrible. We can blame Housley all we want for his usage but players are playing on lines above their capability because we don't have enough capable players. Pominville, Mitts, Sheary, Thompson, Sobotka, Okposo are all playing on lines ablove their skill level. Add in Scandella and Hunwick and Beaulieu and it's pretty clear Botts is bad at his job.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Botts inaction has cratered the team so much I fear that we will simply have to watch them ship out the current relevant talent and hope that the next rebuild works. And yes, I'm talking about Eichel and Reinhart.

I don't think it needs to go that far. If players like Kopitar and Keith survived years of crap, so can Eichel and Reinhart.

 

[Man of Principles]

I want to stop trying out first timers and get somebody with a proven track record. I don't even know who that would be.

 

[GellMann]

To me, Botterill hasn't been the problem. He's put together a functional roster, and has managed the best he could outside of perhaps one trade, and a coaching hire. He's done just as many positives as he has negatives. If you're firing him because of Housley and Ryan O'Reilly, call me cynical.

I contend this, and it's literally the only thing I DON'T like about him, in fact.

 

[Icicle]

People who keep pointing out the ‘junk’ on the team who is only on one or two war contracts just don’t get it. There aren’t better options out there for half those guys. The others are simmering in Rochester.

It’s not like he signed Moulson and Okposo to long term deals or anything.

 

[jc17]

People who keep pointing out the ‘junk’ on the team who is only on one or two war contracts just don’t get it. There aren’t better options out there for half those guys. The others are simmering in Rochester.

It’s not like he signed Moulson and Okposo to long term deals or anything.

Which shouldn't be an accomplishment, but unfortunately is in reality.

Part of the reason I'm not fully against botts yet is in reality most GMs do stupid stuff, including dumb signings that handcuff a team.

We'll see what happens this offseason, especially with skinner.

There are very few (none?) GMs with perfect records. Show me a GM candidate that wouldnt be a rookie GM, which everyone is so against, and I'll show you some bad trades/signing/hirings

 

[jc17]

The reality is that most Sabres fan are generally in agreement with what needs/needed to be done. I think way too many people are assuming "since its obvious to us, it must be obvious to a new GM, as long as they aren't an idiot". But it's just not true.

 

[debaser66]

Any GM who signs a player on the opening day of Free Agency usually ends up regretting it. I mean, Leino was on the extreme end of that spectrum, but still.... I always thought the Leino and Ehrhoff signing was more of a statement that "Money is no longer an issue in Buffalo," than anything else. Ill advised all the way, but a statement nonetheless.

I am getting off topic. As far as i can tell, Botts has yet to make such a terrible contract. I think the worst we can point at is Scandella and Pominville, but one was a cap dump and one was a good defensemen until this year.

If you count Pominville&Scandella you also have to add Sobotka, Berglund (lucky) & Hunwick.
He didnt actually sign anyone other than depth players in FA so it remains to be seen what he does this offseason.
(I don't mind because as a bad team you have to overpay for anyone notable to sign here)
I guess lets see what happens with Skinner he basically has no leverage.

 

[sabrebuild]

The reality is that most Sabres fan are generally in agreement with what needs/needed to be done. I think way too many people are assuming "since its obvious to us, it must be obvious to a new GM, as long as they aren't an idiot". But it's just not true.

I think it should be noted that person’s position in life, seldom has a lot of bearing on their intelligence or ability to do their job.

Judge someone on their actions not assumptions, whether it’s what fans think are obvious or the assumption that no idiot would ever get a big time job.

 

[Chainshot]

I don't think it needs to go that far. If players like Kopitar and Keith survived years of crap, so can Eichel and Reinhart.

LA and Chicago are not Buffalo.

 

[Der Jaeger]

LA and Chicago are not Buffalo.

LA and Chicago weren’t LA and Chicago then either.

 

[Chainshot]

LA and Chicago weren’t LA and Chicago then either.

Eh, if I had to suffer on a bad hockey team, making good buck, I think spending it in LA or Chicago isn't a half bad way to go.

 

[debaser66]

I don't think it needs to go that far. If players like Kopitar and Keith survived years of crap, so can Eichel and Reinhart.

I'm not questioning the survival but Kopitar made the playoffs in his 4th season Eichel didn't.
He had the Cup in his 6th, thats in 2 years which is highly unlikely happening here.
Keith also made the playoffs in his 4th season and was there ever since.
So none of them had it worse than Eichel.