Proposal: Buffalo and Rangers not involving Eichel

[smoneil]

I myself find it funny that Rangers fans are trying to force a player they apparently value very highly on a team that doesn’t need or want him. It’s the only reason this thread is seven pages.

Nice revision. The fact that nobody has been pushing the trade for most of this thread seems to indicate that you are wrong about that. This thread would have been done in a page or two if Buffalo fans just said that it doesn't work because they can't deal from a position of weakness to add to a position of strength. The fact that they felt the need to take BS digs at the players in the initial offer is where the other 5+ pages came from.

Frankly, a lot of this has to do with there being two different subsets of Rangers fans. There are those who want to move DeAngelo no matter what (largely, I suspect, due to his political affiliation). Then there are those who either don't want to move him, or want to move him when the ELC RHD are ready so that the Rangers don't end up in a similar cap situation as TB down the line. Between Fox, ADA, and Lundkvist, the Rangers have 3 smallish, offensive-minded RHD. None of them really belong on the 3rd pair, and we can't afford to pay top dollar to have the luxury of a top player at 3rd pair RHD (Especially with Chytil, Shesterkin, Zibanejad contracts all coming up, and then the much pricier contracts of Laf and Kakko).

What you end up getting is people from camp 1 offering ADA and people from camp 2 and 3 defending the player from BS attacks.

 

[smoneil]

Even funnier is that your “rebuild” has lasted 8 years yet there doesn’t seem to be any plan in place. I haven’t been to Buffalo myself but is the struggle for mediocrity a local trait?

Don't knock the city. It gets a lot of stereotyped grief, but western NY is legit a fantastic place to live. I lived in Rochester for ~10 years, and loved every minute of it.

 

[DropTheGloves]

Nice revision. The fact that nobody has been pushing the trade for most of this thread seems to indicate that you are wrong about that. This thread would have been done in a page or two if Buffalo fans just said that it doesn't work because they can't deal from a position of weakness to add to a position of strength.

Literally on the first page friend:

Probably fair value but not interested. Centers are just too hard to get, especially a destination like Buffalo that needs to draft them. Cozens will be the Sabres 2C behind Eichel long term. He will have development year most likely on Eric Staal's line as a RW.

WTF

Cozens is going nowhere...he’s untouchable

Buffalo already has 10,000 RD and Dahlin will p,ay 1st PP ..ADA wouldn’t so his value ducks if he isn’t a PP1guy

At RW buffalo has a Reinhart, Thomoson, and they drafted Quinn..all you get than Buch

Then there is the cap....

Buffalo after RFAs are signed might have $1.5M in space.

 

[smoneil]

Literally on the first page friend:

Note where I said if they had "JUST" said that. Djp (in the post you quote above) and others began ranting from the start that ADA is a PP specialist and then trashing the Rangers players. One guy even tried to claim that Risto was better than ADA solely because he'd scraped together four 40 point seasons. If Buff fans hadn't gone for the extra digs, the thread would have quickly and respectfully died out on the first page (or Bernmeister would have found it and turned it into a 30 page discussion involving several dozen 2nd round picks and somehow Seider ending up on the Rangers, haha).

 

[DropTheGloves]

Note where I said if they had "JUST" said that. Djp (in the post you quote above) and others began ranting from the start that ADA is a PP specialist and then trashing the Rangers players.

Saying that ADA wouldn't get first unit powerplay time over Dahlin is "trashing"? Oh hun, you need to grow thicker skin if you're going to be on this Internet thing very long.

 

[bernmeister]

Note where I said if they had "JUST" said that. Djp (in the post you quote above) and others began ranting from the start that ADA is a PP specialist and then trashing the Rangers players. One guy even tried to claim that Risto was better than ADA solely because he'd scraped together four 40 point seasons. If Buff fans hadn't gone for the extra digs, the thread would have quickly and respectfully died out on the first page (or Bernmeister would have found it and turned it into a 30 page discussion involving several dozen 2nd round picks and somehow Seider ending up on the Rangers, haha).

ha!
time and a place for everything
bern is super biz these days
so the dissertation will have to wait, professor!

 

[smoneil]

Saying that ADA wouldn't get first unit powerplay time over Dahlin is "trashing"? Oh hun, you need to grow thicker skin if you're going to be on this Internet thing very long.

The presumption was that he would be worthless without said powerplay time (a position that became more explicit as this thread went on). The notion that ADA is nothing but a PP specialist is becoming a trope on here among his detractors, and there just isn't anything that sustains it as actually being true. Just the opposite. Rangers fans pointed that out. Sabres fans countered with "If your player was so good, why you trying to shove him on us!!" Rangers fans posted back that we weren't, and we totally understood the logic, as our team is crazy deep at RD and very thin at center as well. Then things just got weird with the guy who loved Risto. And then it all cycles through again.

For the last time--not looking to trade ADA for peanuts. I completely understand the log-jam aspect of Buffalo not wanting to trade major pieces in exchange for ADA. The two teams are bad trading partners in just about every way. I do not hate the city--it's a rather lovely place and I lived near there for years. My sole point throughout this thread is that ADA has value around the league (or at least would in a normal cap year--nobody seems to have value at the moment), and that he isn't a PP specialist. Lots of people have been responding to my last point as if I had stated the exact opposite on every single one of my previous points, and frankly, it's kinda weird.

Also, I'm old enough to have been on the internet when it first started, when we had to dial up, both ways in the snow. And it's been 11 years since I lived in Baltimore, so I feel rather silly responding to "hun" haha.

 

[smoneil]

ha!
time and a place for everything
bern is super biz these days
so the dissertation will have to wait, professor!

I finished the dissertation last summer. Why do you think my posting frequency shot up?

 

[bernmeister]

I finished the dissertation last summer. Why do you think my posting frequency shot up?

congrats!

 

[Barnaby]

I myself find it funny that Rangers fans are trying to force a player they apparently value very highly on a team that doesn’t need or want him. It’s the only reason this thread is seven pages.

Literally everyone but the OP says the teams aren’t a fit to deal. No one is forcing a player on anyone - it’s a message board. Most Ranger fans are just disagreeing with an awfully negative perception of a pretty good darn player.

 

[Barnaby]

FWIW I would love having ADA on the Sabres. However I would not give up Cozens for him. And currently it would be only if we could find new homes for 2 of Risto, Montour and Miller.

Thanks. That’s pretty much what almost every Ranger fan has said in this thread. ADA is a very nice player, but the teams aren’t a fit, and Buffalo should not be trading Cozens.

 

[bernmeister]

Thanks. That’s pretty much what almost every Ranger fan has said in this thread. ADA is a very nice player, but the teams aren’t a fit, and Buffalo should not be trading Cozens.

This ^ as to OP.
If both sides were flexible enough a deal could be had, but as is often the case, no agreement on value/currency.

 

[Djp]

Note where I said if they had "JUST" said that. Djp (in the post you quote above) and others began ranting from the start that ADA is a PP specialist and then trashing the Rangers players. One guy even tried to claim that Risto was better than ADA solely because he'd scraped together four 40 point seasons.

The presumption was that he would be worthless without said powerplay time (a position that became more explicit as this thread went on). The notion that ADA is nothing but a PP specialist is becoming a trope on here among his detractors, and there just isn't anything that sustains it as actually being true. Just the opposite.

These are not alternate facts....

1 thread started by an apparent Rangers fan
2. Asking fir teams top prospect who hasn’t yet played in nhl who was a top 10 pick
3. OP proposes a quantity fir quality trade
4. OP does not even look at salary cap complications ( betnmruster as least does that)
5. OP does not seem to know ehat other teams needs are

Most on here know almost every team is near the cap or over the cap. Only a few rebuilding teams have cap space.

So proposition a deal where a team takes on about $10M in cap of disposable parts on a team for a top prospect isn’t the best idea.

Buffalo’s biggest need was center depth. They know they have Cozens and Mittlestadt but wanted players with more experience so they acquired staal and signed Eakin. That does not mean Cozens is available.

The OP also seemed aware of the show Eichel to rangers turned into.


[QUOTEj
For the last time--not looking to trade ADA for peanuts. I completely understand the log-jam aspect of Buffalo not wanting to trade major pieces in exchange for ADA. The two teams are bad trading partners in just about every way.
.[/QUOTE]

The issues with ADA besides bring in every thread and proposal is he is a one dimensional offensive Dman. Some teams need thrm, some do not.

Another issue at play here that you don’t seem to grasp. This happened the year before the vegas expansion draft...defenseman are difficult yo move.

Because most teams are going 7-3-1 protection, do they have need in the top 3 Dmen to acquire someone?

But you also need to compare who he’d be bumping out of their 3 Dman and the fact a team coukd be giving up thst as well in the ED.

With some teams if newly acquired D fits a role they don’t have and they also have 2 very similar Dman thry might be open to acquiring the new player and exposing the two similar ones.

Evaluating ADA isn’t in a vacuum ..it’s also factoring in how a team coukd keep him beyond 1 yr.

Teams will not trade an ED exempt prospect for a player they might not protect

 

[One Winged Angel]

They said Laf was worth more than Eichel in the Eichel thread. Funny.

“They?”

Who said that? Can you quote?

Because the last I checked, the concerns about trading Lafreniere in a deal for Eichel were that not only would trading for Eichel gut the team, but kill the cap as well and then the Rangers would turn into the Maple Leafs.

But feel free to find one or two people in your feeble attempt to paint an entire fanbase with a broad brush. I’m sure that will work out well for you.

 

[NYR425]

Actually a majority of the things you said are not correct.

1- Is true- yes, I am a Rangers fan. Been a Rangers fan since 1969. Have played and coached the game for years.

2- Is true yes, I asked for one of your top prospects. But I guess you can not ask for a top prospect in a trade on Hockeys Future.

3- completely false it is not a quantity for quality trade at all.
a- It actually is proven quality for future potential since Cozens is a prospect who has not played 1 game yet, although I believe he will develop into a very good player/ upper level #2 Center.
Georgiev would be your #1 goalie, Buchnevich is a top 6 winger and DeAngelo is a top 4 Defenseman at the very least on your team and more likely a 2 or 3. So if you dont like the trade offer thats one thing but saying its quantity for quality is totally off base. Most Ranger fans think the offer is giving up way too much.

4. OP does not even look at salary cap complications ( betnmruster as least does that)
False again- Op clearly stated salary dumps coming back to the Rangers.

5. OP does not seem to know ehat other teams needs are
False again- Op clearly stated that although Buffalo has a lot of RD- ADA is a clear upgrade to that position, Op clearly stated that Georgiev would fill a position of need- #1 goalie, Op clearly stated that Buffalo needs to upgrade the whole team to keep Eichel.

6- The OP also seemed aware of the show Eichel to rangers turned into.
False yet again-
Op clearly put in the Title Not Eichel. That would show that Op knew the history of Eichel thread.

You stated 6 things and 4 of the 6 are completely fabricated. The two you got correct were I am a Ranger fan and I asked for a prospect.


[QUOTEj
For the last time--not looking to trade ADA for peanuts. I completely understand the log-jam aspect of Buffalo not wanting to trade major pieces in exchange for ADA. The two teams are bad trading partners in just about every way.
.[/QUOTE]

The issues with ADA besides bring in every thread and proposal is he is a one dimensional offensive Dman. Some teams need thrm, some do not.

Another issue at play here that you don’t seem to grasp. This happened the year before the vegas expansion draft...defenseman are difficult yo move.

Because most teams are going 7-3-1 protection, do they have need in the top 3 Dmen to acquire someone?

But you also need to compare who he’d be bumping out of their 3 Dman and the fact a team coukd be giving up thst as well in the ED.

With some teams if newly acquired D fits a role they don’t have and they also have 2 very similar Dman thry might be open to acquiring the new player and exposing the two similar ones.

Evaluating ADA isn’t in a vacuum ..it’s also factoring in how a team coukd keep him beyond 1 yr.

Teams will not trade an ED exempt prospect for a player they might not protect[/QUOTE]

 

[Asymmetric Solution]

“They?”

Who said that? Can you quote?

Because the last I checked, the concerns about trading Lafreniere in a deal for Eichel were that not only would trading for Eichel gut the team, but kill the cap as well and then the Rangers would turn into the Maple Leafs.

But feel free to find one or two people in your feeble attempt to paint an entire fanbase with a broad brush. I’m sure that will work out well for you.

If you want to go look feel free. But it was the vast majority of your fans. Your straw man argument in this thread was the same one that justified piecing together spare parts for Eichel to make the cap work for NYR in acquiring Eichel. When Sabres fans would rather keep Dylan Cozens and again not receive a bundle of used spare parts, none of which that have the 1C upside/elite scoring upside, you again see NYR getting upset and insulting Buffalo’s team.

Edit: Even if GMKA saw something in that bundle he liked for Cozens, which I’m sure he doesn’t, Buffalo doesn’t have the cap space to fit that in without dumping cap back on NYR.

 

[One Winged Angel]

If you want to go look feel free. But it was the vast majority of your fans.

So in other words, instead of backing up your ridiculous claim, you’ve decided to be disingenuous, lazy and obtuse. Got it.

If it’s the vast majority of our fanbase, being there’s at least a few hundred on HFNYR, you should be able to go quote a ton of people then.

Burden of proof is on you, as you made the claim.

Your straw man argument in this thread was the same one that justified piecing together spare parts for Eichel to make the cap work for NYR in acquiring Eichel. When Sabres fans would rather keep Dylan Cozens and again not receive a bundle of used spare parts, none of which that have the 1C upside/elite scoring upside, you again see NYR getting upset and insulting Buffalo’s team.

Again, since you’re going to make ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims that I specifically said what you’re describing, feel free to quote me.

What I specifically said is that the value is shit for the Rangers, but Buffalo should not and will not trade Cozens.

Edit: since you’re lazy and it’s in this thread, I’ll do this part of the legwork for you, you’re on your own with the Eichel bullshit though.

Buffalo isn’t trading Cozens.

With that said, the value is dogshit for the Rangers and they would be better off moving DeAngelo, Buchnevich and Georgiev in separate deals, but it’s highly unlikely that they’ll be moved now, ESPECIALLY Georgiev.

Neither team does this.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

So, DeAngelo is going to win the Norris this year? Ranger fans are turning this off season into a carnival act.

 

[UnSandvich]

So, DeAngelo is going to win the Norris this year? Ranger fans are turning this off season into a carnival act.

Nobody's saying that, but it's certainly possible in theory. What we're saying is that DeAngelo isn't some bottom pairing guy who only puts up points because he plays on the PP. He was Top 5 leaguewide in 5v5 scoring despite spending almost the entire season playing with an anchor in Marc Staal. He is a legitimate 2-4 D (depending on team depth) who provides a genuine boost on PP1. The only reason we're even considering trading him is because we've got a more balanced and cheaper option coming in the pipeline, and we can use the return for DeAngelo to fill other team needs.

OP's trade proposal is still trash though.

 

[One Winged Angel]

So, DeAngelo is going to win the Norris this year? Ranger fans are turning this off season into a carnival act.

Who the hell is saying that? Instead of selectively reading and making stupid assumptions, try reading what Ranger fans are actually saying.

I’ll summarize it for you.

- No one is saying DeAngelo is a great defensive defenseman. We acknowledge he needs work.

- With the above said, some of his “issues” are being overblown and it’s hard to take anyone seriously who can only point to the Aho clip and a bunch of regurgitated hearsay from these boards.

- The idea that DeAngelo is just a power play specialist is stupid, being that he was tied for 3rd ES scoring among defenders this year.

- Him being a one-hit wonder is a fallacy, being that in his 2 full seasons in the NHL, he’s scored 30 points (40 point pace in 82 games) and 53 points (65 point pace over 82 games).

- Ranger fans ARE NOT saying Buffalo should trade or want to trade Cozens for DeAngelo. The vast majority of us think Cozens is going nowhere. With that said, the value in the OP is horrendous for the Rangers and if the sides were flipped, Sabres fans would not want to trade a 50+ point top-4 defender, a top-6 winger and a backup goalie with starter potential who are all 25 or younger, for one prospect and a cap dump.

 

[Djp]

looking back at your original post

We all know Buffalo is looking to surround Eichel with better players. Would Buffalo be interested in something like this?

Rangers trade
RD- Tony DeAngelo
RW- Pavel Buchnevich
G- Alexander Georgiev

to Buffalo for
C- Dylan Cozens
and Cap dump

I know Buffalo has lots of Defenseman but DeAngelo would be a huge upgrade. Georgiev would be the starter more then likely and Buchnevich gives them another top 6 forward. Thoughts???

Would Buuffalo be interested in something like this??

FACTS

1. you acknowledge the Eichel trade proposal
2. You dont take into account salary conditoins of team. Buffalo probably only has $1M in space.

Surround Eichel with Better players---What they hell is Hall, Staal, and other additions ?

Georgiev is not better than Ullmark
Buchnevich wouldnt be in Buffalos top 6 9if he was acquired alone. Hed be below Hall, Skinner, Rei nhart, Olofsson, ,and Cozens at wing.
Buffalo already has Ristolainen, Jokiharju, Montour, Miller, and n NHL ready RD in Borgen.

He isnt any better than Ristolainen would be on 1st PP. Risto is better defensivle. ADA is not a huge upgrade.

3. you failed to take account the teams actual needs.



4. Lets do the math--$10M for an ELC player+ cap dump. After signing RFAs they will have around $1M in space. How can they affors those 3 players.

Actually a majority of the things you said are not correct.

1- Is true- yes, I am a Rangers fan. Been a Rangers fan since 1969. Have played and coached the game for years.

2- Is true yes, I asked for one of your top prospects. But I guess you can not ask for a top prospect in a trade on Hockeys Future.

3- completely false it is not a quantity for quality trade at all.
a- It actually is proven quality for future potential since Cozens is a prospect who has not played 1 game yet, although I believe he will develop into a very good player/ upper level #2 Center.
Georgiev would be your #1 goalie, Buchnevich is a top 6 winger and DeAngelo is a top 4 Defenseman at the very least on your team and more likely a 2 or 3. So if you dont like the trade offer thats one thing but saying its quantity for quality is totally off base. Most Ranger fans think the offer is giving up way too much.

4. OP does not even look at salary cap complications ( betnmruster as least does that)
False again- Op clearly stated salary dumps coming back to the Rangers.

5. OP does not seem to know ehat other teams needs are
False again- Op clearly stated that although Buffalo has a lot of RD- ADA is a clear upgrade to that position, Op clearly stated that Georgiev would fill a position of need- #1 goalie, Op clearly stated that Buffalo needs to upgrade the whole team to keep Eichel.

6- The OP also seemed aware of the show Eichel to rangers turned into.
False yet again-
Op clearly put in the Title Not Eichel. That would show that Op knew the history of Eichel thread.

You stated 6 things and 4 of the 6 are completely fabricated. The two you got correct were I am a Ranger fan and I asked for a prospect.

2. If you ask for a top prospect on HF you better be giving up something to get them and not using spare parts. are you offering any upper level player 9in the deal---no. If the Rangers needed a center there were two available they could have drafted.

3. non of the players are in the twams top 6/top 4---thats quantity. Risto is better than ADA. Buch isnt playing top 6 on Buffalo. Georgev isnt better than ullmark.

4. what one salary cap dumps does Buffalo have that balances that out?

 

[One Winged Angel]

Georgiev is not better than Ullmark

Not a fact, an opinion.

Buchnevich wouldnt be in Buffalos top 6 9if he was acquired alone. Hed be below Hall, Skinner, Rei nhart, Olofsson, ,and Cozens at wing.

Unlike you, I won’t claim to know what Buffalo’s coaching staff would do with Buchnevich, but I do find it very hard to believe that they would put a rookie in their top-6 over an established, 25 year old top-6 winger who scored at a 55 point pace last year and has a 20 goal season under his belt, never mind their top-9, which you also mentioned there. So you’re trying to tell me that Buchnevich would be a 4th liner in Buffalo?

Buffalo already has Ristolainen, Jokiharju, Montour, Miller, and n NHL ready RD in Borgen.

If you’d take Ristolainen, Montour and Miller over DeAngelo, I have oceanfront property in Kansas I’d like to sell to you.

He isnt any better than Ristolainen would be on 1st PP. Risto is better defensivle. ADA is not a huge upgrade.

@smoneil alread debunked this and absolutely destroyed this argument. Try again.

 

[bernmeister]

Not a fact, an opinion.



Unlike you, I won’t claim to know what Buffalo’s coaching staff would do with Buchnevich, but I do find it very hard to believe that they would put a rookie in their top-6 over an established, 25 year old top-6 winger who scored at a 55 point pace last year and has a 20 goal season under his belt, never mind their top-9, which you also mentioned there. So you’re trying to tell me that Buchnevich would be a 4th liner in Buffalo?



If you’d take Ristolainen, Montour and Miller over DeAngelo, I have oceanfront property in Kansas I’d like to sell to you.



@smoneil alread debunked this and absolutely destroyed this argument. Try again.

This ^, also, tell it like it is: Risto today is a turnover machine; his +/- testifies to that on top of the eye test.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

So, DeAngelo is going to win the Norris this year? Ranger fans are turning this off season into a carnival act.

What post # was that? We’re talking public flogging. By the way, how are the Leafs gonna get under the cap? Are they going to roster 21?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Are they really now claiming that Buch wouldn’t be in their top six? He had more points last year than all but two of their players.