Brule/Johnson similiar to Nash/Bowmeester?

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Vlad The Impaler

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Reilly311 said:
There will be plenty of players that will have a better career than Nash.

Plenty?

I don't know. He's off to a rocking start his first two seasons and I love everything he brings in a game. The goalscoring and Rocket Richard award is a bonus but there is way more to this player.

I wouldn't trade him for any forward one on one at this point in time.
 

Bruins4Ever

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Plenty?

I don't know. He's off to a rocking start his first two seasons and I love everything he brings in a game. The goalscoring and Rocket Richard award is a bonus but there is way more to this player.

I wouldn't trade him for any forward one on one at this point in time.


Really?!? Thornton, Lecavalier, Richards, Kovalchuk, Heatley, Hossa, Iginla? I'd trade him for any of those players most likely.
 

trahans99

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Reilly311 said:
You've never even seen Johnson play and since you don't watch the Florida Panthers, you've never seen JBo play. There will be plenty of players that will have a better career than Nash. That's not the point. You're taking Nash because he dawned the great London Knights jersey.


:bonk: :badidea:
 

Greg7

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Rabid Ranger said:
How has your opinion been formed? Have you ever seen Jack Johnson play? He's got alot going for him that Bouwmeester doesn't, that's for sure.

I freely admit to having never seen Jack Johnson play (I really look forward to it at next year's WJs), but I've seen Bouwmeester lots, and if Johnson really is as good as Bouwmeester, I don't think there would be any question about who is going 2nd overall. I don't consider Brule in the same league as Bouwmeester having watched them both a lot, and most people consider Brule as a similar calibre prospect to Johnson, so I extend this to mean that Johnson is not as good as Bouwmeester. This is how I have formed my opinion without seeing Johnson play, and it is an admittedly weak argument that pales in comparison to those who have seen him play a lot, but to be honest I don't think very many people (not necessarily you) have seen him play at all, nevermind with any regularity.

I would also take Nash over Brule in a second. I'm a big Brule fan, but Rick Nash is already an offensive star in the NHL, and I don't honestly think Brule will EVER be as much of an offensive force in the NHL as Rick Nash is already becoming. I supsect Brule will eventually be a more complete player, but few have the ability to score 40 goals in today's NHL, nevermind a kid the age of Nash. Funny that the Knights fan would take Brule over Nash, and the Giants fan would take Nash over Brule.
 

Habsfan 32

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I don't think the Coyotes will be as bad as they were last season. With all the guys they signed they should be able to fight for a playoff spot if their goaltending is up to par.
 

Rabid Ranger

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Greg7 said:
I freely admit to having never seen Jack Johnson play (I really look forward to it at next year's WJs), but I've seen Bouwmeester lots, and if Johnson really is as good as Bouwmeester, I don't think there would be any question about who is going 2nd overall. I don't consider Brule in the same league as Bouwmeester having watched them both a lot, and most people consider Brule as a similar calibre prospect to Johnson, so I extend this to mean that Johnson is not as good as Bouwmeester. This is how I have formed my opinion without seeing Johnson play, and it is an admittedly weak argument that pales in comparison to those who have seen him play a lot, but to be honest I don't think very many people (not necessarily you) have seen him play at all, nevermind with any regularity.

I would also take Nash over Brule in a second. I'm a big Brule fan, but Rick Nash is already an offensive star in the NHL, and I don't honestly think Brule will EVER be as much of an offensive force in the NHL as Rick Nash is already becoming. I supsect Brule will eventually be a more complete player, but few have the ability to score 40 goals in today's NHL, nevermind a kid the age of Nash. Funny that the Knights fan would take Brule over Nash, and the Giants fan would take Nash over Brule.



A perfectly acceptable perspective. I'm not really interested in comparing Brule and Johnson because it's apples and oranges as they play differant positions. I do, however think it's a bit ridiculous for a person to compare Bouwmeester and Johnson without having seen one or both play.
 

VernonForrest

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Rabid Ranger said:
The ones that count at least........... :teach:

You guys are sitting here saying Brule is better, but I wonder how many of you have actually seen Johnson play? IMO there is a very small percentage of this board who has actually seen both of them play live or even on tv. I judge this by the attendance at the U-18 home games.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Bruins4Ever said:
Really?!? Thornton, Lecavalier, Richards, Kovalchuk, Heatley, Hossa, Iginla? I'd trade him for any of those players most likely.

They're all very good players so I understand how you can see it that way.

I'm not going to lie to you and say I'm sure I would be taking the right decision but I feel I couldn't give up Nash straight up for any of these.

In the case of most of those players, I give 5, 6, 7 years of RFA status up. Obviously, many of these guys are more polished at this point but Rick Nash is way ahead of a 20 years old Iginla, for instance. He's an interesting comparison because Rick Nash should, if everything goes right, provide pretty much the same elements Iginla will give you. Except he has bloomed earlier as a scorer and is bigger. So with Iginla being what, 27? 28 years old? I choose Nash.

In the case of Thornton and Lecavalier, both are really big, talented guys and both are centers. A position that is certainly valued. They've got a lot going for them. But Thornton gives me something like 5 years less of RFA status, some underwhelming goalscoring averages over the years and slight question marks on his attitude. The guy has a short fuse at times on the ice and open his mouth a little too often at refs and the organization that feeds him. He's fantastic but I'll take a chance with Rick.

Lecavalier I think still has interesting upside that we haven't seen despite many years of NHL service already. I really do think I haven't seen a more talented prospect except Eric Lindros but I've always had issues with him. The way he carries himself. He is a bit of an enigma and requires some maintenance. Kudos to Tortorella for a kickass job on that but still, I'd rather take Nash. But on this one it's close because I feel Vinny has as much upside as anyone in the game right now.

Richards is a very nice little player, but frankly I don't see top end, dominating upside there. I do see a damn good centerman, though. But I prefer to gamble on a guy who might flat out dominate games in every facets. Out of all the players, I rank him last despite loving the little guy. I think he will be a steady producer, though.

I don't see any guts in Heatley. And frankly, I think he had a dream season in 02-03 he will be hard pressed to repeat. Heatley shows little guts, rarely initiates contact and his reputation as a two-way Canadian warrior is a complete joke. Nash is already much better at initiating things (and he's just starting, I expect way more) and he gets under the skin of tough, veteran defensemen with easy. I can't take Heatley here.

Hossa I really like. Tough decision but I'll go back to Iginla. He's a somewhat older player who developed really well and I'll just gamble that Nash can get to that level and probably more. He's a bigger player, already scoring more than Hossa. Obviously, just like Iginla, these guys are way more polished and provide a much better two-way game but with age and everything, Nash becomes a valuable commodity in terms of upside and dollars. Hossa has also let me down a few times in the playoffs.

We're left with Kovalchuk. He's a machine, immense potential and everything. But really, Nash is just a smarter player when it comes to intangibles. He plays more of a team game, according to the clock, the score and who he is facing. And that's really what sells me on Nash and why I think so highly of him. I think he has the potential to be a great playoff guy that will play smartly according to who he faces. I also like that he is praised for his attitude. I love Ilya and will absolutely not discard him because he is benched but I will factor this when comparing him to another top talent. Both players have progressed REALLY well, IMO. Both have fantastic potential. The age difference is thinny. But I'm just going to choose the guy who seems to have just as much goalscoring in him, seems wiser, requires less maintenance, is grittier and bigger. I think Ilya is a fantastic offensive producer but otherwise a total non-factor. That's where Nash beats him. I think he has the markup to be an effective player even when not scoring. He draws penalty very well for a youngster and he's got the frame to hurt people once he matures.

Bottom line is, Nash is 20 years old, a Rocket Richard winner with a 6 foot 4 frame, great attitude and underrated sense of the overall game. I can't pass it up for anyone else right now.

They say power forwards take more time. Well, Rick Nash has all the tools and he has progressed faster than almost any other player, power forward or not. He just got a great NHL award his second season. I find that impressive and promising.

I'm not sure it will be the way things will play out but I'm sticking to my guns :)
 

Rabid Ranger

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VernonForrest said:
You guys are sitting here saying Brule is better, but I wonder how many of you have actually seen Johnson play? IMO there is a very small percentage of this board who has actually seen both of them play live or even on tv. I judge this by the attendance at the U-18 home games.


I was just joking around with Reilly. I love Jack Johnson and think he's an awesome prospect, and a good bet to go number two, if the team drafting in that position desires a defenseman. If not, Brule might be their man.
 

Flames Draft Watcher

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I don't see Brule/Johnson as being in the same elite status that Nash/Bouwmeester were. 2002 had 3 guys at the top end (2 of which you are using as a comparison). 2005 has one of the most special players in years at the top end (Crosby) but a dropoff after that according to everything I've read.

I see Nash/Bouwmeester > Brule/Johnson.
 

Anksun

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just want to comment about Vlad one:

I pretty much agree with his post. Only one i might pick over Nash as a habs fan stand point would possibly be Lecavalier, but again Vlad already list him as "hard to choose between the two" so.

Kovalchuk is obviously hard to pass, but Nash game would just help Mtl so much.
 

The Maltais Falcon

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Vlad The Impaler said:
I don't see any guts in Heatley. And frankly, I think he had a dream season in 02-03 he will be hard pressed to repeat. Heatley shows little guts, rarely initiates contact and his reputation as a two-way Canadian warrior is a complete joke.
What a ridiculous statement.

Heatley has no guts? The kid came back from his car wreck with a concussion, a blown-out knee, and nerve damage in his shoulder and once he shook the rust out the first six or seven games, averaged a point a game the rest of the way. That's not too far off his "dream" 02/03 pace.

As for his reputation as a "two-way Canadian warrior," I'd be curious where this reputation has been floating around. His reputation has always been pretty fair in the "two-way" and "warrior" aspects. He's par for the course defensively for first-liners who are expected to score first and foremost; there are certainly many star wingers who are better in this regard and there a lot that are much worse. Physically, he's always been a guy that doesn't initiate contact but doesn't get phased by it when the going gets tough.

Anything more than this reputation-wise is probably a figment of your imagination and it's rather unfair to judge players based on those pesky figments.
 

Jargin

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I really don't see how people would take Brule over Nash at this point. To me it just proves how over-valued undrafted prospects are here.

As far as Nash and Brule go, since they are both expected to be scoring forwards with an edge, I think its safe to give Nash this one as he's 6'4. I know Brule isn't the shortest guy around but when he's most effective is when he's being physical, same with Nash. I'll always take a 6'4 206 pound guy who can skate and hit over a 5'10 180 pound kid who can skate and hit. And remember, Nash has already won the Rocket Richard trophy, at 20 years old! Just how much upside does Brule have if you expect him to be better than this?

As for Bouwmeester and Johnson, in my opinion Bouwmeester easily wins. I think many of you are just being influenced by his poor season in the AHL, lets not forget that he was fantastic in the World Cup against the best players in the world. I think he has all the potential in the world, and while I admit to never seeing Johnson play, I just don't see how he can have the same type of upside as Bouwmeester, more physical maybe, but not the better player.
 

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If the caps had to choose between brule/johnson I would think they would go for johnson.

Nash/Bowmeester are at least a .5-1 increase over with HF rating system, IMO.
 

Reilly311

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Vlad The Impaler said:
I don't see any guts in Heatley. And frankly, I think he had a dream season in 02-03 he will be hard pressed to repeat.


You don't think it's going to be hard for Nash to score 41+ goals again?
 

Rabid Ranger

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Jargin said:
I really don't see how people would take Brule over Nash at this point. To me it just proves how over-valued undrafted prospects are here.

As far as Nash and Brule go, since they are both expected to be scoring forwards with an edge, I think its safe to give Nash this one as he's 6'4. I know Brule isn't the shortest guy around but when he's most effective is when he's being physical, same with Nash. I'll always take a 6'4 206 pound guy who can skate and hit over a 5'10 180 pound kid who can skate and hit. And remember, Nash has already won the Rocket Richard trophy, at 20 years old! Just how much upside does Brule have if you expect him to be better than this?

As for Bouwmeester and Johnson, in my opinion Bouwmeester easily wins. I think many of you are just being influenced by his poor season in the AHL, lets not forget that he was fantastic in the World Cup against the best players in the world. I think he has all the potential in the world, and while I admit to never seeing Johnson play, I just don't see how he can have the same type of upside as Bouwmeester, more physical maybe, but not the better player.

How can you say Bouwmeester "easily wins" in a comparison to Johnson when you freely admit you have never seen Johnson play? That kind of torpedos your argument. Do you know anything about Jack Johnson or his ability? I tend to doubt it.
 

Jargin

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Rabid Ranger said:
How can you say Bouwmeester "easily wins" in a comparison to Johnson when you freely admit you have never seen Johnson play? That kind of torpedos your argument. Do you know anything about Jack Johnson or his ability? I tend to doubt it.

I've read about him and I know that's not the same as watching him, but I think that Bouwmeester has the potential to be the best defenseman in the league. Now I'm sure there are some highly ranked prospects that you've never seen who you believe don't have the potential to be the best player at their position, which is my belief with Johnson.

Most people here probably haven't seen half of the prospects they talk about play but that doesn't mean we can't form an opinion on them.
 

AG9NK35DT8*

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how about this, we all wait and see when Brule and johnson play in the NHL then the comparison can be made . Because you all seem to be a little puzzled .
 

trickster

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mazmin said:
Brule? Johnson? No, no, no... if the Yotes pick #5 Overall again they will pick....

Colin Greening, RW, Upper Canada College (Cdn. high school)

Suprise! Again!


I would be absolutely furious if the NHL used old standings to determine the draft. It is terribly obvious why that sort of plan wouldnt be fair.
 
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