Confirmed with Link: Brouwer waived for buyout (edit: cleared)

[Johnny Hoxville]

Question: How much, if any influence do you guys think Burke had on signing Brouwer?

We know that we needed size, a RW, a RHS, a guy that could add some muscle and play in the top 6, so Brouwer checked a lot of those boxes. But he was the wrong target. Do you guys think this was all on Treliving? Obviously he would have had a large amount of influence on the decision or was this one of Burke’s final meddlings that allowed Treliving to gain more control of the team?

 

[Baxterman]

Question: How much, if any influence do you guys think Burke had on signing Brouwer?

We know that we needed size, a RW, a RHS, a guy that could add some muscle and play in the top 6, so Brouwer checked a lot of those boxes. But he was the wrong target. Do you guys think this was all on Treliving? Obviously he would have had a large amount of influence on the decision or was this one of Burke’s final meddlings that allowed Treliving to gain more control of the team?

I think the only influence he had was hiring Treliving who is a guy with similar views on size and toughness in the line-up. Other than that I think the move was 100% Treliving.

Listening to Treliving talk (especially a few years ago) he constantly talked bout having to be able to play a heavy game. He has also consistently added guys that add more sandpaper than skill (Glass, Gadzic, Hathaway, Engelland, Prout).

I also don’t think Burke meddled at all so this certainly wasn’t one of the “final meddlings.”

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I think the only influence he had was hiring Treliving who is a guy with similar views on size and toughness in the line-up. Other than that I think the move was 100% Treliving.

Listening to Treliving talk (especially a few years ago) he constantly talked bout having to be able to play a heavy game. He has also consistently added guys that add more sandpaper than skill (Glass, Gadzic, Hathaway, Engelland, Prout).

I also don’t think Burke meddled at all so this certainly wasn’t one of the “final meddlings.”

I remember Treliving talking about a “heavy” team when we hired him, but he never built the team that way, did he? It was common knowledge Burke liked truculence but I feel the “heavy” comments made by our GM were due to Treliving being put on the spot by the media.

Engelland was signed as a bottom pairing dman, Brouwer was the literally the only attempt to add a heavy player in our top 6. Ferland was here before Treliving, and he was dealt by him just last month. Brouwer was also bought out and Engelland was snatched up. Hathaway is an AHL call-up, Prout is a #7, Glass was a 14th forward and Gadzic is in the AHL. Brouwer and Engelland were his only significant additions that fit this label.

Burke believes in having black and blue players but Treliving clearly doesn’t.

 

[Baxterman]

I remember Treliving talking about a “heavy” team when we hired him, but he never built the team that way, did he? It was common knowledge Burke liked truculence but I feel the “heavy” comments made by our GM were due to Treliving being put on the spot by the media.

Engelland was signed as a bottom pairing dman, Brouwer was the literally the only attempt to add a heavy player in our top 6. Ferland was here before Treliving, and he was dealt by him just last month. Brouwer was also bought out and Engelland was snatched up. Hathaway is an AHL call-up, Prout is a #7, Glass was a 14th forward and Gadzic is in the AHL. Brouwer and Engelland were his only significant additions that fit this label.

Burke believes in having black and blue players but Treliving clearly doesn’t.

I think in today’s NHL guys like Neal and Tkachuk can be considered those types of players as their physical play definitely is looked as an asset.

I do think that the fact he specifically mentioned matching up with LA and Anaheim meant that Treliving had thought about it and wasn’t just trying to safe face in front of his boss in the media.

And yes those guys are lower roster guys but if Treliving didn’t think there was a need for that type of guy they would have been replaced by a different kind of player.

I think there is no doubt Treliving likes a black and blue game but I think he is realizing that it is being faded out of the game and much less effective than it was previously.

 

[DFF]

Question: How much, if any influence do you guys think Burke had on signing Brouwer?

Not sure what you are trying to get at but this is BT's fault 100%. , there may be bad advice from the pro scouts also.

Brouwer is so bad, there is no excuse.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Not sure what you are trying to get at but this is BT's fault 100%. , there may be bad advice from the pro scouts also.

Brouwer is so bad, there is no excuse.

I guess my point would be that perhaps it’s not 100% his fault. If his mandate from above was to go out and get a specific type of player, when maybe he wouldn’t have gone in that direction on his own, I don’t think he shoulder all that blame.

Gully was brought in the same season as Brouwer, they were a terrible fit from the beginning. Treliving clearly wanted an analytics heavy possession coach like Gully, well Brouwer never has had good analytics throughout his career. Players that can skate well, have good on ice vision and do not turnover the puck, fit Gully’s system, so it seems odd that Brouwer was their only target in FA when he does none of those things very good.

This is total speculation on my part, but all of Burke, the coach, Dougie and Brouwer were all moved out after the season ended. The message to me is clear, the Flames want a complete new culture from top to bottom.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Meh. Even though it's the first contract bought out from that FA class, I kind of doubt it'll be the last one. Still wouldn't consider it the worst contract handed out that year. Maybe not even the 2nd or 3rd worst. Would of preferred Okposo personally but American UFAs rarely come to Canada.

It was clear the Flames were going to sign a RWer that year, if they had the kind of depth St Louis or Washington had to surround Brouwer with he may have had more success here. They really didn't so he struggled.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Well we’ll never know either way, but I’d love to know 100% for sure if Brad himself would have preferred to go in a direction.

In hindsight it would have been better to keep Colborne at 2.5 or whatever.

 

[Baxterman]

Well we’ll never know either way, but I’d love to know 100% for sure if Brad himself would have preferred to go in a direction.

In hindsight it would have been better to keep Colborne at 2.5 or whatever.

There is no reason that think that it was anything but 100% Brads decision.

Trying to take the blame away seems to be more hoping our current GM didn’t make such poor evaluation rather than based on any evidence or reason.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

There is no reason that think that it was anything but 100% Brads decision.

Trying to take the blame away seems to be more hoping our current GM didn’t make such poor evaluation rather than based on any evidence or reason.

Except you’re the one stating facts when you’re speculating, I am not. It is completely logical to think that the President of Hockey Ops had a heavy influence on the direction to go in FA.

 

[Baxterman]

Except you’re the one stating facts when you’re speculating, I am not. It is completely logical to think that the President of Hockey Ops had a heavy influence on the direction to go in FA.

When both guys have said that wasn’t how the relationship would work it isn’t that logical. When Treliving has talked about liking that style, signed guys to fit that style and drafted guys in that mood then it doesn’t seem logical to spin it that it wasn’t his choice.

And how is questioning whether It was Trelivings decision not speculating?

All I am doing is seeing that there is every piece of information we have pointing to it being Trelivings decision and zero things pointing to Burke’s influence and going with side that has all the evidence and makes sense over the side with no evidence and makes little to no sense.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Question: How much, if any influence do you guys think Burke had on signing Brouwer?

We know that we needed size, a RW, a RHS, a guy that could add some muscle and play in the top 6, so Brouwer checked a lot of those boxes. But he was the wrong target. Do you guys think this was all on Treliving? Obviously he would have had a large amount of influence on the decision or was this one of Burke’s final meddlings that allowed Treliving to gain more control of the team?

I really think getting pushed around in the 2015 playoffs had a lot to do with it. The Flames were a team lacking "grit" and at the time (not to mention RW depth) and Brouwer was coming off a monster playoffs, and a pretty good regular season. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

When both guys have said that wasn’t how the relationship would work it isn’t that logical. When Treliving has talked about liking that style, signed guys to fit that style and drafted guys in that mood then it doesn’t seem logical to spin it that it wasn’t his choice.

And how is questioning whether It was Trelivings decision not speculating?

All I am doing is seeing that there is every piece of information we have pointing to it being Trelivings decision and zero things pointing to Burke’s influence and going with side that has all the evidence and makes sense over the side with no evidence and makes little to no sense.

The first draft Burke ran, the Flames took:

2014: Bennett, McDonald, Smith, Hickey, Mattson, Carroll

Thats 5 skaters, 3 of which are truculent and will never see the NHL. Treliving has gained more and more control ever since and has placed less emphasis on size and higher importance on speed and skill, Button has even stated this. This philosophy has also trickled over into their FA signings.

In 2017 Treliving signed his extension and gained a lot more autonomy in his job, this was a year after Brouwer was signed. I never said I wasn’t speculating, in fact I stated the opposite. But it’s clear to me that as Treliving has gained more control of the team, his emphasis has never been on playing “heavy”, in fact it’s been the opposite, it’s been to play a skilled possession game. Which I can’t help but correlate that there could have been disagreement in philosophies between Treliving and Burke about which style they should play. Treliving never came close to assembling a Burke style team. And Treliving wanted more control in his decision making prior to signing his extension, there’s every reason to assume Burke was instrumental in targeting Brouwer.

@Lazar Beams I 100% agree that Brouwer filled a need, I just question if that’s who Treliving really wanted on his own. Which would also explain why he was granted permission to buy him out.

 

[Baxterman]

The first draft Burke ran, the Flames took:

2014: Bennett, McDonald, Smith, Hickey, Mattson, Carroll

Thats 5 skaters, 3 of which are truculent and will never see the NHL. Treliving has gained more and more control ever since and has placed less emphasis on size and higher importance on speed and skill, Button has even stated this. This philosophy has also trickled over into their FA signings.

In 2017 Treliving signed his extension and gained a lot more autonomy in his job, this was a year after Brouwer was signed. I never said I wasn’t speculating, in fact I stated the opposite. But it’s clear to me that as Treliving has gained more control of the team, his emphasis has never been on playing “heavy”, in fact it’s been the opposite, it’s been to play a skilled possession game. Which I can’t help but correlate that there could have been disagreement in philosophies between Treliving and Burke about which style they should play. Treliving never came close to assembling a Burke style team. And Treliving wanted more control in his decision making prior to signing his extension, there’s every reason to assume Burke was instrumental in targeting Brouwer.

@Lazar Beams I 100% agree that Brouwer filled a need, I just question if that’s who Treliving really wanted on his own. Which would also explain why he was granted permission to buy him out.

I don’t think Burke has ever built a team that fans try to paint him as wanting.

As for Treliving he has drafted his share of big guys that offer not much but size and truculence himself plus addedguys like Engelland, Glass, Gadzic, Hathaway and even a guy like Neal who play that style as well.

Again unless you ignore everything he has done, or marginalize it as you seem to want to do, everything he has said and common sense then maybe you can squint to see it as Burke pushing for it and Treliving not wanting it but it seems like a pretty huge leap based on a lot of assumption and no facts.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I don’t think Burke has ever built a team that fans try to paint him as wanting.

As for Treliving he has drafted his share of big guys that offer not much but size and truculence himself plus addedguys like Engelland, Glass, Gadzic, Hathaway and even a guy like Neal who play that style as well.

Again unless you ignore everything he has done, or marginalize it as you seem to want to do, everything he has said and common sense then maybe you can squint to see it as Burke pushing for it and Treliving not wanting it but it seems like a pretty huge leap based on a lot of assumption and no facts.

You are making as many assumptions as I am. Let’s also assume that Burke did lay out a mandate for his GM, even if Treliving didn’t fully agree with it, do you expect he would ever say otherwise? If he did, he would have been fired on the spot.

Again, the only signings of truculent/heavy players that were ever meant to play any sort of key roles for us were Engelland and Brouwer. The rest were 13th forwards, 7th dman or AHL players. I am also not suggesting that Treliving wants a soft team, but I don’t think he’s ever wanted a roster similar to what Burke would have envisioned for us.

 

[Corpus X]

I think this discussion is 100% productive!

...Just like this post.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I think this discussion is 100% productive!

...Just like this post.

Productive like the off-season with no hockey?

 

[Baxterman]

You are making as many assumptions as I am. Let’s also assume that Burke did lay out a mandate for his GM, even if Treliving didn’t fully agree with it, do you expect he would ever say otherwise? If he did, he would have been fired on the spot.

Again, the only signings of truculent/heavy players that were ever meant to play any sort of key roles for us were Engelland and Brouwer. The rest were 13th forwards, 7th dman or AHL players. I am also not suggesting that Treliving wants a soft team, but I don’t think he’s ever wanted a roster similar to what Burke would have envisioned for us.

I think if Burke told him to sign Brouwer and he didn't want to he would either quit or not sign him and suffer the consequences. Just like when people tried to lay all the mistakes of Feaster on the owners forcing him to do it, if Treliving is actually making moves that he doesn't want because of Burke then he is a god awful GM for that alone.

Also I would say the "assumptions" that you are claiming that I am making are based on a lot more than yours and if you are claiming that I am making assumptions then I guess everytime someone posts about a move or trade then they are making assumptions as well since we don't know for 100%. I am assuming that when he said he wanted a heavy team he wasn't lying. I mean I don't think that is a big stretch but I guess it is an assumption on my part.

I also don't think that it matters that the guys he brought in were lower level guys as other teams weren't all making those types of moves so it shows that at least on some level that was something Treliving thought had a place in the organization. I also think you are really overrating the black and blue part of Brouwers game. He was brought in primarily to score goals and play on that top line providing us with the top RW depth we lacked. The black and blue part was secondary to his supposed ability to play in the top 6.

 

[Baxterman]

I think this discussion is 100% productive!

...Just like this post.

You have an issue with two guys talking about a hockey move the Flames made in the Flames forum during the offseason?

 

[Corpus X]

No, but I was teasing two guys who are 'discussing', one marginally more smug than the other, in a super duper crystal ball hypothetical.

Do what you guys want!

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

No, but I was teasing two guys who are 'discussing', one marginally more smug than the other, in a super duper crystal ball hypothetical.

Do what you guys want!

Thank you, I like being smug

 

[Ace Rimmer]

 

[Calculon]

Darren Haynes interview with Treliving on the fourth line and Brouwer: New-Look Calgary Flames Continue Roster Overhaul with Brouwer the Latest to Depart

"The style that we want to play, which is very up-tempo, which is the way the league is now, it's very pressure-related and you need four lines," says Treliving. "You can't rely on one or two lines to play 20-some minutes, a third line to play 11 and then three minutes for your fourth line. Those days are gone. The schedule is too taxing, it's too compressed and every game is too important. You just wear people down."

"Not criticizing the player, but if your role is on the fourth line, the compensation has to fit that role," says the GM.

On Brouwer:

"Did he produce to the level that we had hoped and expected? No. But it wasn't just production that we were bringing him in for. Shooting it in the net is part of it, but there were other parts of why we thought Troy would be a really good fit here," says Treliving. "I don't want to say he didn't fulfill a lot of those areas, it's just that now, when you look at the make-up of your team, and Troy and I talked about this at the end of the year. The role and there's responsibility on us and there's responsibility on him to do more and have a bigger bite of the apple here."

I also asked the GM about the ability to be a leader on a team when you're playing in a reduced role and whether one affected the other.

"I don't want to speak for Troy, but if you ask any leader on any team, it's hard to demand more of everybody else, if maybe your game is not where it needs to be," says Treliving. "These are proud guys. They want to make sure they're taking care of their sandbox. It's hard to look to the next guy and kick him in the rear-end when maybe it's not going as good as it can or should be going for you."

 

[InfinityIggy]

It appears Troy will be able to feed his family this year gosh bless:

 

[Mobiandi]

850k. Fair value if we're being honest

 

[Kranix]

Darren Haynes interview with Treliving on the fourth line and Brouwer: New-Look Calgary Flames Continue Roster Overhaul with Brouwer the Latest to Depart



On Brouwer:

So I'm "reading into" Treliving's comments: I can't have a guy with an 'A' on his jersey when his game's in the toilet.