Speculation: Brooks Orpik

[AjaxTelamon]

I had no idea he was only 27, seems like he's been around forever. Not a bad contract either.

 

[mpp9]

Bryz was good when he was playing behind Pronger and Niedermayer. And in Tippett's system.

He may be an upgrade for the Oilers. But that's only b/c they can't do much worse.

 

[jmelm]

Two young average prospects for Smid. That sets the bar for what we should expect in fantasyland (i.e. trading Orpik).

Edmonton have traded Smid to Calgary for Horak and Brossoit. Apparently Edmonton are looking to get another trade for a D done tonight. What would people like to come back for Orpik?

I don't think Smid and Orpik are in the same class value-wise at all, save for the fact that Smid is not a UFA after this season. Orpik is a superior player (even with his warts) and brings more playoff experience, leadership, physicality, etc.

IF (because I don't think Ray will do it) we were to trade Orpik, a team that would covet him for this year and who would want a crack at extending him would be willing to give at least what Smid got in return as a non-UFA (2 decent prospects), and probably more.

Edmonton, however, are not one of those teams who I see as having a serious shot at Orpik at all. Why would he want to go that far away and that far north in Canada for a team that, while appears to be serious contender in 2-3 years, is nowhere close to that right now, and would be a non-playoff team this season. I doubt EDM is on Orpik's limited NTC list he'd accept a trade to, and I doubt EDM thinks they'd be able to re-sign him. Not a good destination/trading partner IF we were even going to consider trading Brooks before season's end.

I wanted Smid. I'd have parted with two nothing prospects for him. Love Smid.

Smid is a great add for CGY, and his absence will hurt EDM in the short-term (because they are so weak at that position). But Smid, while solid, is nothing special for teams with an above average blue-line. He's a mid-tier guy at best, and in no way superior to any of the players on our current roster or our top D prospects. Good for CGY and EDM has a lot of young D coming up, but this doesn't bother me one bit as a Pens fan.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Smid is DEFINITELY better than Brooks Orpik. Orpik's reputation is overblown because he plays for a much higher-profile team.

I wonder where Orpik's career would be if HE were the one playing for a non-contender the last 5-7 years.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Smid is DEFINITELY better than Brooks Orpik. Orpik's reputation is overblown because he plays for a much higher-profile team.

I wonder where Orpik's career would be if HE were the one playing for a non-contender the last 5-7 years.

Smid is better than Orpik is right now for sure. Orpik at his peak, I'm not so sure. Not that it matters.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Smid is better than Orpik is right now for sure. Orpik at his peak, I'm not so sure. Not that it matters.

he peaked in the spring of 2009, basically. You might be right, Ogre, but it certainly wasn't a lengthy peak.

 

[Ogrezilla]

he peaked in the spring of 2009, basically. You might be right, Ogre, but it certainly wasn't a lengthy peak.

until we see Smid on a team that doesn't suck, it really is impossible to tell I think.

 

[IcedCapp]

I don't think Smid and Orpik are in the same class value-wise at all, save for the fact that Smid is not a UFA after this season. Orpik is a superior player (even with his warts) and brings more playoff experience, leadership, physicality, etc.

IF (because I don't think Ray will do it) we were to trade Orpik, a team that would covet him for this year and who would want a crack at extending him would be willing to give at least what Smid got in return as a non-UFA (2 decent prospects), and probably more.

Edmonton, however, are not one of those teams who I see as having a serious shot at Orpik at all. Why would he want to go that far away and that far north in Canada for a team that, while appears to be serious contender in 2-3 years, is nowhere close to that right now, and would be a non-playoff team this season. I doubt EDM is on Orpik's limited NTC list he'd accept a trade to, and I doubt EDM thinks they'd be able to re-sign him. Not a good destination/trading partner IF we were even going to consider trading Brooks before season's end.



Smid is a great add for CGY, and his absence will hurt EDM in the short-term (because they are so weak at that position). But Smid, while solid, is nothing special for teams with an above average blue-line. He's a mid-tier guy at best, and in no way superior to any of the players on our current roster or our top D prospects. Good for CGY and EDM has a lot of young D coming up, but this doesn't bother me one bit as a Pens fan.

You've clearly never watched an Oil Change marathon.

 

[SEALBound]

I don't think Orpik will "price him out of Pittsburgh". The only scenarios I see are Shero signs him for 3-4yrs/$4-5mil, or he doesn't get an offer at all which is out of character for this country club.

Tanner Glass will also be resigned. No way he doesn't No way. Another 2 yrs at 1.5-2mil.

Scuds was not a mistake. Given Letang's need for a babysitter, he was a great signing. I believe we will find ourselves in the same positions as the beginning of 12-13. Same crap players, no holes fixed, too much loyalty.

Given WHO has to be resigned, I wouldn't bank on any Top 6 wings being signed. I see:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.850m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
Beau Bennett ($0.900m) / Evgeni Malkin ($9.500m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Tanner Glass ($1.750m) / Brandon Sutter ($3.500m) / Jayson Megna ($0.874m)
Harry Zolnierczyk ($0.605m) / Joe Vitale ($0.675m) / Craig Adams ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kris Letang ($7.250m) / Rob Scuderi ($3.375m)
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Brooks Orpik ($4.250m)
Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m) / Olli Maatta ($0.894m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.650m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,823,292; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): -$2,523,292

Adjust those signings for the salary cap rise.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

So you think the organization would rather spend money resigning Orpik than Martin? Their D signing next summer will be a Martin extension, and that will preclude an Orpik re-sign.

If they saw Orpik in their plans, they would have extended him this past summer. Instead they signed Scuderi.

I know people like to call this a country club, but what better players were available than Kunitz or Dupuis for the money? Clarkson, Horton, Clowe, Filppula, all getting 25 mil+ and insane term? The only other options were retreads like Iggy and Alfredson for 5.5-6. All of that sucks in a regular year, but with the low cap, it's truly awful. I was mildy excited about the prospects of getting Clark freakin' Macarthur who I thought would go for 2mil x 2 or something, but he got 3.25 x 2.

Everyone's darling Cal Clutterbuck has all of 1G 1A in 12 games so far. 2.75 mil x 4 for him.

And we did let Matt Cooke go, didn't we?

So I know everyone wants there to be exciting deals and new players and all that, but I don't see a lot of great alternatives out there for our cap money.

 

[jmelm]

So you think the organization would rather spend money resigning Orpik than Martin? Their D signing next summer will be a Martin extension, and that will preclude an Orpik re-sign.

If they saw Orpik in their plans, they would have extended him this past summer. Instead they signed Scuderi.

.....

So I know everyone wants there to be exciting deals and new players and all that, but I don't see a lot of great alternatives out there for our cap money.

I absolutely agree with this. That's pretty much what I was saying before. Scuderi's signing spelled the end of Orpik's tenure here, IMO, and perhaps even a hedge against losing all of Nisky/Orpik/Martin if we couldn't re-sign the ones we wanted. Martin is easily the best of the bunch, though, and would be my clear pick for the guy to extend. And with him, we have another year to work on that before he becomes a UFA, and to see where the cap will be at going forward for the next several seasons.

 

[jmelm]

Smid is DEFINITELY better than Brooks Orpik. Orpik's reputation is overblown because he plays for a much higher-profile team.

I wonder where Orpik's career would be if HE were the one playing for a non-contender the last 5-7 years.

I still respectfully disagree. I watch a lot of Oiler games and Smid is good in comparison to who else they have on their blueline. If you don't believe me, just look at the facts: a team that is SCREAMING for defensemen (EDM) doesn't trade Smid for a couple of prospects just to open up room for a huge ??? in Bryzgalov if he is such a solid Dman, especially when he's signed for the next several years at a "reasonable" cap hit. Bottom line: he's decent, just nothing special at all. He wouldn't crack the top 6 on our team. He's not better than Scuderi, Orpik, or Maatta.

Smid is better than Orpik is right now for sure. Orpik at his peak, I'm not so sure. Not that it matters.

he peaked in the spring of 2009, basically. You might be right, Ogre, but it certainly wasn't a lengthy peak.

I've been one of the biggest Orpik haters on this board the last 4 years or so. I even started a thread a long while ago entitled "Controversial Suggestion - Trading Brooks Orpik" to which some agreed, but most weren't on the bandwagon yet. That said...

I really did think that Orpik's physical play was taking his toll on him and that he was declining in his play. And while I would totally agree with the assertion that his play the last few seasons was not where it was in 08/09 (which is why I wanted to move him when his value was high/had more term on his deal), I have to eat some crow and admit that I am very and pleasantly surprised with his level of play this season. Perhaps it's because of the reasons he mentioned: this was the first off-season in a while in which he had no injuries and was able to train at a high level and without interruption in the offseason.

Now, this absolutely does not mean I want to re-sign him. We have other guys who will be at least as good as (and eventually better than) Orpik to replace him next year, and like was discussed in the posts above, if we have extra money we have to sign a Dman should be earmarked for extending Martin. In the meantime, any extra $ should be used to target a forward.

But what it does mean is that as much as I'm an Orpik "hater", if you will, I have to give him some props this season, and have to objectively say he's a better player than Smid. Maybe Smid gets to Orpik's prime level in 3-5 years, but he's not there now nor ever has been. Again, the proof is in the fact that EDM moved him.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I still respectfully disagree. I watch a lot of Oiler games and Smid is good in comparison to who else they have on their blueline. If you don't believe me, just look at the facts: a team that is SCREAMING for defensemen (EDM) doesn't trade Smid for a couple of prospects just to open up room for a huge ??? in Bryzgalov if he is such a solid Dman, especially when he's signed for the next several years at a "reasonable" cap hit.

jmelm, you know better than most that there could be a number of reasons why Edmonton did this deal...but I'll throw out TWO possibilities:

- They are without a shadow of a doubt completely CLUELESS, and have been ever since Kevin Lowe took control of the operation.

- They are tanking because they really want Aaron Ekblad and believe he is the No. 1 D-man they sorely lack. They didn't do a good enough job tanking last season, and it cost them a shot at Seth Jones. This time, they wanna do it right.


Personally, I think the first one but there is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest the second one.

But the bottom line is, ANY team that dumps Smid to sign Bryzgalov has lost its mind!

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

And while I would totally agree with the assertion that his play the last few seasons was not where it was in 08/09 (which is why I wanted to move him when his value was high/had more term on his deal), I have to eat some crow and admit that I am very and pleasantly surprised with his level of play this season. Perhaps it's because of the reasons he mentioned: this was the first off-season in a while in which he had no injuries and was able to train at a high level and without interruption in the offseason.

You really think Orpik has been good, this season?

I just can't agree with that. He's getting routinely made a fool of in front of his own net by players half his size, he seems permanently confused when it comes to assignments and is constantly getting bailed out by his D partner (usually Martin), his supposed physical playing style is all but a long-forgotten rumor, at this point and I won't get into his offensive game because it's not even worth talking about. I usually give my TV a big thumbs up when he completes anything greater than a 5 foot pass. Usually it's just whipped in a seemingly random fashion up the boards or the middle of the ice... and mostly only with token pressure from the opposition. Sometimes he'll try to move it to his D partner... with decidedly mixed results.

I want him to stick around the rest of the year (though I wouldn't be broken up at all if he were moved) but only because I'm fairly certain he's dogging it and will flip the switch in the playoffs. Speaking of that... another thing that I don't much care for from Orpik is his style of "leadership." Which mostly seems to be going out there, giving half-effort (at best), making all of the mistakes I mentioned above and then calling out his teammates for playing badly after a bad loss. I can only imagine what his disposition is like without cameras and microphones around. I don't mind if someone wants to do the bad cop thing in the locker room... but you actually have to look like you give a ****, yourself to make it ring true.

 

[mpp9]

Orpik not looking like playoff Orpik is fine. I understand he can't hold up over 82 games playing that way. But I just can't stand how he just rings the puck around the boards without even looking. The dude just isn't cut out for this team anymore. Let him sign a retirement contract elsewhere. TD has mentioned it quite a bit, but I like that the organization is having Despres focus on being a shutdown defender. I don't see any reason why he couldn't step in for Orpik in that role next year. Just as big, actually can battle in front of the net and handle guys along the boards. As well as ya know, moving the puck up ice effectively.

Personally, Id move him by mid-season for an upgrade at forward. We need that more than Orpik IMO.

 

[SEALBound]

So you think the organization would rather spend money resigning Orpik than Martin? Their D signing next summer will be a Martin extension, and that will preclude an Orpik re-sign.

If they saw Orpik in their plans, they would have extended him this past summer. Instead they signed Scuderi.

I know people like to call this a country club, but what better players were available than Kunitz or Dupuis for the money? Clarkson, Horton, Clowe, Filppula, all getting 25 mil+ and insane term? The only other options were retreads like Iggy and Alfredson for 5.5-6. All of that sucks in a regular year, but with the low cap, it's truly awful. I was mildy excited about the prospects of getting Clark freakin' Macarthur who I thought would go for 2mil x 2 or something, but he got 3.25 x 2.

Everyone's darling Cal Clutterbuck has all of 1G 1A in 12 games so far. 2.75 mil x 4 for him.

And we did let Matt Cooke go, didn't we?

So I know everyone wants there to be exciting deals and new players and all that, but I don't see a lot of great alternatives out there for our cap money.

1. Yes I do. I absolutely believe Shero would sign Orpik and overspend on Martin. 100%. Like I said, I can easily see a 5yr, $4.5-5mil Orpik signing and a 5yr $5-5.5mil Martin signing. Shero has proven time and time again that going with old, tried and true is better than letting go and bringing in someone young. I just honestly do not see how one could argue that. Many times Shero has been in the position to be rid of an aged vet but instead chose to bring them back. If you don't think Adams and Glass will be on this team next year, you're dreaming.

2. Kunitz and Dupuis signing, alright I'll give you that the options were not the best out there, even though I would rather had any of the guys you named over Dupuis. What I hated about the signings the most was the length. Especially for guys that are entering the twilight of their careers. A 2yr deal for both, and I would have been fine with it. Hated everything about the Letang signing so...there's that.

Shero's hesitance to let go of vets and bring up youth/prospects is hindering the organization. Orpik, Dupuis (1st line Dupuis), Glass, Adams, and Letang (at that price) should have been out the door last year.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

1. Yes I do. I absolutely believe Shero would sign Orpik and overspend on Martin. 100%. Like I said, I can easily see a 5yr, $4.5-5mil Orpik signing and a 5yr $5-5.5mil Martin signing. Shero has proven time and time again that going with old, tried and true is better than letting go and bringing in someone young. I just honestly do not see how one could argue that. Many times Shero has been in the position to be rid of an aged vet but instead chose to bring them back. If you don't think Adams and Glass will be on this team next year, you're dreaming.

2. Kunitz and Dupuis signing, alright I'll give you that the options were not the best out there, even though I would rather had any of the guys you named over Dupuis. What I hated about the signings the most was the length. Especially for guys that are entering the twilight of their careers. A 2yr deal for both, and I would have been fine with it. Hated everything about the Letang signing so...there's that.

Shero's hesitance to let go of vets and bring up youth/prospects is hindering the organization. Orpik, Dupuis (1st line Dupuis), Glass, Adams, and Letang (at that price) should have been out the door last year.

Good stuff. I'd have kept Letang, but gotten rid of the others for sure.

 

[jmelm]

You really think Orpik has been good, this season?

No, I don't think Orpik looks THAT good, but I do think he looks better than he has during the last few regular seasons. That's why I proposed trading him a few years ago, and that's also why I'm pleasantly surprised that he has been looking at least a little bit better this season. He's skating as well as ever, he's remained healthy, he hasn't gone chasing guys for hits, and he's done a great job of making the first pass.

Where Orpik really sucks -- and this is why I think we would be a stronger team with a guy like Dumoulin taking his spot instead, because they are better in these areas -- are that he is particularly crappy about getting bodies & sticks and losing coverage near his own net; and also because whenever he has the puck on stick in the offensive zone he can never do anything with it, and he either shoots it right into the goalies chest or, more often, the shot just gets blocked. He has virtually ZERO offensive contribution. I get the idea of a "stay at home D", but he is particularly offensively inept, as opposed to a guy like, say, Harrington, whose offensive contributions we've been discussing in the WBS thread.

If it were up to me, I would trade him now. Then again, I would have traded him a year or two ago when he had more value. So you're preaching to the choir, don't get me wrong.

jmelm, you know better than most that there could be a number of reasons why Edmonton did this deal...but I'll throw out TWO possibilities:

- They are without a shadow of a doubt completely CLUELESS, and have been ever since Kevin Lowe took control of the operation.

- They are tanking because they really want Aaron Ekblad and believe he is the No. 1 D-man they sorely lack. They didn't do a good enough job tanking last season, and it cost them a shot at Seth Jones. This time, they wanna do it right.


Personally, I think the first one but there is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest the second one.

But the bottom line is, ANY team that dumps Smid to sign Bryzgalov has lost its mind!

I respectfully disagree. I know some people, both on the player side and the management & ownership side, of their organization. They suck, no question, but the last season or two, they really have tried to compete. They failed because they suck, but they stopped "tanking" after RNH. I also think Craig MacTavish is particularly competent (and think he is underrated and was surprised he was never hired as a coach after taking a mediocre team to the Stanley Cup), and now they also have Mark Messier as part of their team. That's one part...

Another part is: they actually have A LOT of really good defensive depth amongst their prospects, but the problem is they are all WAY too green to contribute (and their most NHL ready guy in Klefbom missed most of last year with injury). I was glad to see that they made the right decision by not rushing Nurse, and whoever they draft this year (unless perhaps Ekblad) won't make a difference next season anyway. So I can see why they would trade Smid considering their defensive depth among their young players (Petry, Schultz, Belov), and their prospects (Nurse, Klefbom, Marincin, Gernat, etc.). All those guys will get better and they have a very good core...

Where they really have had problems is in goal, and Bryzgalov could be a good band-aid in the short-term, and Brossoit gives them at least a decent goaltending prospect, of which they have few. One move alone won't solve their issues, and they have a lot less overall depth, either of the prospect or veteran variety, than we or Chicago did during our rebuilds. They will get there, but it looks like it's going to take them an extra couple of years.

But I still think they're bad because they suck, don't have good depth/bottom 6 forwards, the good Dmen they have are young (besides Smid, who was really only mediocre), and Dubnyk is under-achieving big time. And they've had some very significant injuries this year. They tried and offered a lot for Schneider, but VAN didn't want to trade him within the division, and Miller isn't interested in going there. EDM is trying to improve their team and compete hard, and this trade may have been as much about sending a message and shaking things up than making a (good or bad) hockey deal. Their hearts & efforts are in the right place, IMO. I have no doubt about that whatsoever. They do want to win and compete now, no question. Their ability to do so is a different matter.

 

[JoeniiChan]

I don't necessarily agree with it, but I think he'll get a three year deal, worth $3.850M a season.

 

[Jacob]

If we must bring back a veteran d-man I'd rather we re-sign Orpik and trade Martin. Both similar ages, but Orpik's cap hit will be about a million less and I think he brings more of what we need where as Martin is just more of what we already have (both on the current roster and in the system).

 

[mpp9]

If we must bring back a veteran d-man I'd rather we re-sign Orpik and trade Martin. Both similar ages, but Orpik's cap hit will be about a million less and I think he brings more of what we need where as Martin is just more of what we already have (both on the current roster and in the system).

Na. Tonight is a perfect example of why we miss Martin when he's out. Orpik is lost without his partner. And Letang hasn't shown nearly enough to confidently say he could take over Martin's PK minutes and matchups.

Having Despres come in next season to play with Martin in a shutdown role. And Bort to replace his nastiness is a pretty easy call IMO.

We have Ruopp on the way as well. And it sounds like the organization is pretty high on him.

 

[Jacob]

But Bortuzzo doesn't really replace Orpik's nastiness.. I mean, we have both right now and we're still not nasty enough for most of our liking.

 

[mpp9]

But Bortuzzo doesn't really replace Orpik's nastiness.. I mean, we have both right now and we're still not nasty enough for most of our liking.

I don't think nastiness is a problem on the defense. I'm fine with having guys like Scuds, Despres and Bort who can box guys out in the front of the net and handle them along the boards to allow for their partners to get a clean breakout.

I think we're lacking nastiness up front. Guys who can make it hard on opposing D-men.

 

[KIRK]

I don't think nastiness is a problem on the defense. I'm fine with having guys like Scuds, Despres and Bort who can box guys out in the front of the net and handle them along the boards to allow for their partners to get a clean breakout.

I think we're lacking nastiness up front. Guys who can make it hard on opposing D-men.

If making it hard on someone is the definition of 'nasty', then the guy on the ice Orpik is nastiest to is Fleury.

 

[jmelm]

1. Yes I do. I absolutely believe Shero would sign Orpik and overspend on Martin. 100%. Like I said, I can easily see a 5yr, $4.5-5mil Orpik signing and a 5yr $5-5.5mil Martin signing. Shero has proven time and time again that going with old, tried and true is better than letting go and bringing in someone young. I just honestly do not see how one could argue that. Many times Shero has been in the position to be rid of an aged vet but instead chose to bring them back. If you don't think Adams and Glass will be on this team next year, you're dreaming.

2. Kunitz and Dupuis signing, alright I'll give you that the options were not the best out there, even though I would rather had any of the guys you named over Dupuis. What I hated about the signings the most was the length. Especially for guys that are entering the twilight of their careers. A 2yr deal for both, and I would have been fine with it. Hated everything about the Letang signing so...there's that.

Shero's hesitance to let go of vets and bring up youth/prospects is hindering the organization. Orpik, Dupuis (1st line Dupuis), Glass, Adams, and Letang (at that price) should have been out the door last year.

Apples and Oranges. The difference between forwards and defensemen is we have virtually ZERO forwards (outside of maybe Kuhnhackl, who best case scenario is still 1-2 years away) who can fulfill the role of a forward to play with Crosby. We re-signed those 2 guys because, frankly, we had ******* all other options. We signed them for 4 years instead of 2 because (A) both have proven to be extremely well conditioned and in excellent shape, and probably should be even by the end of their contracts; and (B) because the added term brought their cap hit down. Simple fact is if we didn't offer them what we did, we wouldn't have had them, and it's not like we had better options to choose from, seriously.


On defense, however, ENTIRELY a different story: we have about 5 blue-chip Dmen prospects (Maatta, Despres, Dumo, Harry, Pouliot) and several maybes, to go along with good young guys like Letang who isn't even in his prime yet, Nisky, who isn't even in his prime yet (and whom I believe we would sooner re-sign than Orpik because he'd be less $$), and Martin who is in his prime and should remain there for another 4-5 years. So there is absolutely ZERO NEED to retain a guy like Orpik, because we do have other legit options, especially with the emergence of Maatta & Bortuzzo, and with Scuderi & Martin signed for next season. Shero has shown a penchant in the past for anyone not named Crosby/Malkin/Letang not getting more than 4-5 year deals tops to keep cap flexibility, and we don't even know where the cap is going to go. I bet he exercises caution here.


So, IMO, until such time as Shero trades at least 2 or more of those top D prospects for top young forwards (which I don't think will happen, because I think only one gets moved), there is ZERO indication that Shero will sign Orpik AND Martin, which would basically spell the end for guys like Despres (who is waiver ineligible after this year) and Dumoulin (ditto the year after). If/when such an unlikely move were to happen, your theory would be believable, but until then, there's no chance of that happening at all.