Bring the NHL to Houston!!!

[King Woodballs]

To answer your question about whether Houston has a rink ready for a team.......the answer is....................HELL YES!!!!

The Toyota Center is a state of the art arena that seats nearly 18,000 for hockey. The AHL Houston Aeros already play there. The arena was completed in 2003, and as such, is still relatively new. The NBA Houston Rockets also play there.

As for a potential owner, the situation is a bit more complicated.

The owner will HAVE to be billionaire Les Alexander, current owner of the NBA Houston Rockets, simply because when the Toyota Center was built, Alexander pitched in funds and ensured that the contract wording would allow ONLY him to own any NHL team that might play there.

It's just a matter of Alexander forking over the money to buy an NHL franchise, and move it there.

I wish he'd do that with the Coyotes or perhaps some other struggling franchise.

Well if this is the case... it would certainly be worth looking at.

 

[cbcwpg]

If and when someone in Houston steps up and lets the NHL know they are interested, that's when the possibility of a team ending up in Houston will be put on the NHL's radar.

Just like any other city, having the building is important, having a supportive fan base is required, but unless you have an owner who has let the NHL know they are in the hunt.... nothing will ever happen.

Has anyone who wants to own an NHL team in Houston talked to the NHL? That's what needs to be answered.

 

[Grudy0]

I remember hearing Bill Daly talking about six or so locations with groups "having interest" when Seattle had been identified as one of those. Anyone know if any other locations were disclosed?

 

[C77]

What about the humidity and temperature in Houston?

It is probably the same or worse than that in Sunrise and the ice conditions there are horrendous.

I suppose one could say that the ice conditions in most arenas are pretty crappy as it is so why not one more team?

 

[cheswick]

What about the humidity and temperature in Houston?

It is probably the same or worse than that in Sunrise and the ice conditions there are horrendous.

I suppose one could say that the ice conditions in most arenas are pretty crappy as it is so why not one more team?

Humidity and temperature is not the only thing that makes bad ice.

Madison Square Garden is largely cited as being the worst ice in the league despite being in a relatively cold city. The fact that the building is so busy with other events is very detrimental to ice conditions.

 

[C77]

Humidity and temperature is not the only thing that makes bad ice.

Madison Square Garden is largely cited as being the worst ice in the league despite being in a relatively cold city. The fact that the building is so busy with other events is very detrimental to ice conditions.

Oh I definitely agree with you. The ice in Boston is poor as well.

I'm just thinking about the integrity of the game which probably does mean too much in the face of $.

 

[Kanata Senators]

I don't think temperature and humidity is that much of an issue when it comes to ice quality.

In Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal yesterday it was 33+ C with a humidex over 40 C.
Temperature and humidity is a problem all over North America, not just in Texas and Florida.

And I agree the ice in MSG is probably the worst in the league, hard to be worse than that!

 

[kdb209]

Les Alexander tried twice in late 90's to bring a team to Houston

He almost got Oilers but last second group from Edmonton saved franchise (With help from Bettman I would add)

Then he submitted a bid for Houston in last round of expansion. Now if I recall there was a seperate bid put in for Houston that weakened both bids in comparision to the single bids from other cities.

After that he stopped trying.

Les Alexander owns Rockets and arena so he is only real option. NHL could always approach him and see if he has interest in franchise still but he hasn't been involved in any attempts to bring NHL to Houston since those efforts failed

Yes, if I recall correctly from another thread on a similar issue the Maloofs were involved in that other bid.

Yup. There were three bids - Alexander, Chuck Watson (owner of the Aeros and the lease on the Summit), and the Maloofs.

Alexander was still trying to get the city to build what would become the Toyota Center - although there were no plans yet.

There was no love lost between Alexander and Watson. They were suing each other the lease at the Summit and later Watson offered the Oilers a $50M loan to try to scuttle Alexander's Oilers to Houston deal.

The last public statements from Alexander concerning an NHL team were during the lockout - when he told the Houston Chronicle that he was interested in acquiring an NHL team to play in his (now completed) Toyota Center.

Alexander has been pretty quiet since then, including through all of the Pittsburgh, Nashville, and Phoenix soap operas - the feigned interest, including overtures to Lemieux, were driven by the Houston politicos, not Alexander.

C & P from an old Houston/Expansion thread:

The Oilers didn't move there If I remember correctly Houston has never applied for an expansion franchise. A quick search found no evidence of an application.

Actually there were three separate Houston bids in '97 for the Atlanta/Columbus/Minnesota/Nashville expansion - unfortunately none of them had any plans for an arena. Les Alexander was not involved with any of the bids - he was still in negotiations with the city on building a new arena for his NBA Rockets and was not interested at that time in sharing the still-in-the-planning-stages Toyota Center. OKC was the other finalist bid in '97.

The Toyota Center was rejected in a referenedum in '97, then approved in a second vote in '99, construction started in '01, and it opened in Sept '03.

edit: Two of the Houston bids in '97 were from Bob McNair (owner of the NFL Texans) and the Maloof brothers (former owners of the NBA Houston Rockets and current owners of the Sacramento Kings).

http://www.houstonhistory.com/citizens/whoswho/business/history30hof.htm

In the first part of 1997, football was on the back burner of Bob McNair's mind, as he attempted to bring a National Hockey League team to Houston. In June 1997, the NHL owners turned down his efforts to bring an expansion hockey team to Houston, stating, among other reasons, that the Compaq Center was not an adequate facility for an expansion hockey team.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/1997/jul/18/maloofs-nhl-deal-not-on-lightning-quick-pace/

Many times this decade the Maloofs have attempted to purchase another major sports franchise. A deal to re-acquire the Rockets in 1992 fell through, and their $120 million offer last summer to buy the San Antonio Spurs was rejected. Their bid last winter to place an NHL expansion team in Houston failed.

A quick google did not turn up info on the third Houston bid.

edit 2: The final Houston bid was from Chuck Watson, owner of the (then IHL) Houston Aeros.

And a correction - it appears Les Alexander was one of the bidders and McNair was part of Watson's group.

Also, McNair and Watson pursued the Oilers as well as Alexander, and were willing to extend credit to the local group so scuttle any sale to Alexander.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/14/sports/cities-line-up-to-join-the-nhl.html

Houston has three groups competing for a franchise. One by one, behind closed doors, each made a 90-minute presentation yesterday. Houston's case is blemished. The Oilers are absconding to Tennessee in 1998 for a more modern, comfortable and profitable football home than the Astrodome. Two of Houston's bidders for a hockey franchise are embroiled in a lawsuit over the arena now used for hockey and basketball.

''The commissioner told us the three big factors for an expansion team were ownership, market and arena,'' said Tony Guanci of Sports Facilities, a development consultant working with the Maloof family, one of Houston's three bidders.

Houston has the market. Its city-owned arena, the Summit, is 20 years old and healthy, but with only a few luxury boxes. Local officials plan to build a $175 million to $200 million downtown arena. Financing is not set, but that does not appear to be a hurdle.

However, the league is watching the infighting between Leslie Alexander and Chuck Watson, two of Houston's three bidders. Alexander owns the Houston Rockets. Watson owns the Houston Aeros of the independent International Hockey League.

Watson owns the master lease to operate the Summit, where the Rockets play. The Rockets are in court trying to break their lease, which runs to 2003, so they can move into a new arena when it is ready.

After their presentations, each Houston group made a case for itself and against the opposition.

Watson: ''We have an arena and new financing. In the last three years, our group has spent $30 million creating the demand for N.H.L. hockey.''

Alexander: ''I have the Rockets, a women's basketball team and an Arena football team. I think you need a major sports background, not just a hockey background. I don't think running a minor league franchise does that for you.''

Gavin Maloof: ''We once owned the Rockets. We have no lease-franchise conflict now. We're not entangled in suits. We can focus 100 percent on the N.H.L.''

http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/EdmontonOilers/articles.htm

Meanwhile two groups snubbed by the NHL for expansion, the Gaylord family (newspapers, Opryland) in Oklahoma City and Chuck Watson and Bob McNair (oil and gas) in Houston, are hungrily eyeing the only existing team currently up for sale, the Edmonton Oilers.

Chuck Watson, who with Bob McNair lost the expansion bid for an NHL team in Houston because they don't have a new arena in place, said something that had an ominous tone for those who hope a way can be found to keep the Oilers in Edmonton.

"Mr. Bettman told me Bob and I should continue our efforts to bring the NHL to Houston," said Watson, "and we intend to do that. We have an indication from the NHL that the league ... will be supportive in our attempts to pursue other options."

For the first time in weeks, Nichols had the luxury of spending the day not rushing from meeting to meeting or drafting paperwork for Alberta Treasury Branches, which effectively seized the Oil last fall after ex-owner Peter Pocklington rung up at least $100 million in debts.

ATB's first serious suitor for the hockey squad, Les Alexander, had promised to skate the Oilers down to Texas if locals couldn't thwart his bid with a $100-million deal before midnight Friday the 13th.

Provided ATB accepts the local offer early next week, investors still need NHL approval by April 27 and all $100 million in to the bank's coffers by no later than May 5.

Robert McNair, an arch-rival of Alexander with similar NHL aspirations for Houston, was glad Nichols and company had managed to quash his offer.

"I think it's in the best interest of hockey that it worked out the way it did. I really do," said McNair, whose business partner Chuck Watson had offered locals a $50-million lifeline if bank financing had fallen apart.

edit 3: Alexander, Watson, McNair, and the Maloofs were among the US groups interested in the Sens in '99.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/20482

In Ottawa, Allen Panzeri writes today that if the Senators are sold to a U.S. group, "they'll likely end up in Houston." Among interested parties listed: Rockets Owner Les Alexander, IHL Aeros Owner Chuck Watson, Houston NFL expansion team Owner Bob McNair, Seahawks/Blazers Owner Paul Allen and NBA Kings Owners Joe and Gavin Maloof (OTTAWA CITIZEN, 10/27).

 

[worstfaceoffmanever]

Where are you getting that from? They're listed as 10th by Nielsen.

My bad, fourth largest city proper, not media market. You look at enough lists and charts and they all start to run together after a while.

Still, it's a big market that would really help offset Atlanta's departure. The NHL's US presence and Canadian demand for the league's product don't necessarily have to be at odds if the right expansion opportunities come along. Maybe move Phoenix to Houston and wait on new arenas in QC and Seattle for expansion? We could be waiting a while, but it would give the NHL a chance to stabilize its clubs in their existing locations before bringing what would likely be the final two clubs into the fold.

 

[RandR]

As seen above, there is no such evidance of a block by either Franchise, just a relocation fee. Any rumor of a block is just that, as stated above, it was even denied in court that Toronto could stop a team in Hamilton.

If an owner with Billions wants to move a franchise to Hamilton that is destined to move, then it will happen and no such veto will exist.

Toronto (and/or Buffalo) don't have vetoes, but they wouldn't need to. The BoG is a fairly small "club" of governors, and so there is no doubt that some level of back-scratching and trading of favours goes on in it. It wouldn't surprise me to see a lot of "block" voting by governors looking out for each other, especially because every owner needs some allies to help their causes when issues like realignment come up.

I am not completely sold on the viability of the NHL in the deep south, but if an interested owner showed up in Houston, then they would certainly have a much easier time getting the required BoG votes than Hamilton, especially because there wouldn't be a nearby owner who would be lobbying their colleagues to vote against it.

Although I hate to "quote" Bettman, he also made a good point when he said that putting a team in Hamilton wouldn't add any additional TV viewers to the NHL audience. Houston certainly would add a lot though.

 

[KevFu]

Nobody in their right mind would put $100 million or more up to bring an NHL club to Houston. Same deal with all the southern disasters. You might pack the house for a while, but for an average ticket price of $30 or so. The NHL is just not considered a real major-league pro sport in most of the US, so consumers won't pay top dollar for seats.

Really, I don't know how people here haven't clued into this by now. The money men certainly have, given that nobody was interested in Atlanta, the Phoenix situation is a joke, the Stars will sell for pretty much nothing, and Vinik bought the Lightning for the same. No US-based team is moving within the US for the peanuts a team is worth there, when there are markets in Canada that people will pay north of $200 million for.

I love this post. It's just so delightfully bitter and ridiculous.

 

[Fidel Astro]

I love this post. It's just so delightfully bitter and ridiculous.

What's ridiculous about it?

Clearly there's a problem with many of the southern teams, and based on the incredible response to Winnipeg's season ticket drive, it seems pretty obvious that bringing teams back to traditional markets is not only a near-guarantee that a team will be successful, but a massive PR bonus for the league as well, especially here in Canada.

We might not have the cities with mega-populations like they do down south, but we have waaaay more hockey fans per capita, and it's not a bad thing for the NHL to throw a bone to its strongest and most passionate fanbase every once in a while. It has definitely done more than enough for the southern fans, who haven't really responded well.

 

[obsenssive*]

this thread is so bushleague.

the OP is so enthusiastic about 10,000 fans IN THE FINALS. it was only 5,363 average in the regular season. While the Quebec Remparts get an average of 12,090 per regular season game, and they have been over the 10,000 mark for years.

and it's very ignorant to put down the AHL. It's a top 7 league in the world IMO.

Quebec City before Houston, Quebec city before Kansas city, Quebec City before Hamilton, Quebec City before any other city.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

What's ridiculous about it?

Clearly there's a problem with many of the southern teams, and based on the incredible response to Winnipeg's season ticket drive, it seems pretty obvious that bringing teams back to traditional markets is not only a near-guarantee that a team will be successful, but a massive PR bonus for the league as well, especially here in Canada.

We might not have the cities with mega-populations like they do down south, but we have waaaay more hockey fans per capita, and it's not a bad thing for the NHL to throw a bone to its strongest and most passionate fanbase every once in a while. It has definitely done more than enough for the southern fans, who haven't really responded well.

And if you can make the league stronger by looking towards the traditional and strong markets, you could go back to building markets when the economy recovers.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

What's ridiculous about it?

Clearly there's a problem with many of the southern teams, and based on the incredible response to Winnipeg's season ticket drive, it seems pretty obvious that bringing teams back to traditional markets is not only a near-guarantee that a team will be successful, but a massive PR bonus for the league as well, especially here in Canada.

We might not have the cities with mega-populations like they do down south, but we have waaaay more hockey fans per capita, and it's not a bad thing for the NHL to throw a bone to its strongest and most passionate fanbase every once in a while. It has definitely done more than enough for the southern fans, who haven't really responded well.

So you were okay with the Jets moving to Phoenix, Nordiques to Colorado, and were against the Oilers staying in Edmonton all those years ago, right? Because clearly, there was a problem with all those Canadian teams and thus they need to be aborted immediately.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

this thread is so bushleague.

the OP is so enthusiastic about 10,000 fans IN THE FINALS. it was only 5,363 average in the regular season. While the Quebec Remparts get an average of 12,090 per regular season game, and they have been over the 10,000 mark for years.

and it's very ignorant to put down the AHL. It's a top 7 league in the world IMO.

Quebec City before Houston, Quebec city before Kansas city, Quebec City before Hamilton, Quebec City before any other city.

If Les Alexander talks to Gary Bettman and says he is willing to buy a team and have it play in Houston, he immediately passes Quebec City for a franchise and rightfully so.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

If Les Alexander talks to Gary Bettman and says he is willing to buy a team and have it play in Houston, he immediately passes Quebec City for a franchise and rightfully so.

And if there was a rich owner for Atlanta and for Phoenix....

Point is, right now, it's tough to find such willing investors.

Apparently not so for Winnipeg, Hamilton and Quebec even though none of them have an 18,000 seat modern arena (yet).

Interesting times.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

And if there was a rich owner for Atlanta and for Phoenix....

Point is, right now, it's tough to find such willing investors.

Apparently not so for Winnipeg, Hamilton and Quebec even though none of them have an 18,000 seat modern arena (yet).

Interesting times.

If they're such willing investors, they'd invest in an arena for them to play in. That kind of thing works both ways.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

If they're such willing investors, they'd invest in an arena for them to play in. That kind of thing works both ways.

Agreed. A new/modern arena is/was part of the plan for both JB and Quebecor.

And the fact that a 15,000 seater is deemed acceptable for the "small market" of Winnipeg showed confidence in Winnipeg's willingness to pay for ticket prices much higher than what's seen in the southern/non traditional markets.

The MTS Centre in Winnipeg may seat only 15,015 (another reason given for skepticism) but revenue wise, the new team is going to generate a bundle.

While we know because of the bankruptcy process that the Phoenix Coyotes made only $13.33-million in ticket revenues the year before they went into bankruptcy, the yet to be named Winnipeg franchise would bring in $1.23-million per home game at their $82 average ticket price.

With the dollar basically at par, that means they would make roughly $50-million on regular-season ticket sales alone, $37-million more than Phoenix made in the year before court proceedings made their attendance situation far worse.

That's the type of gap there is between a really struggling franchise like the Coyotes and what the Return of the Jets has generated in Winnipeg

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-means-big-money-for-winnipeg/article2048916/

Wonder what ticket prices would be for any such Houston franchise

Here are Dallas' ticket prices http://stars.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=39283

 

[dronald]

If they're such willing investors, they'd invest in an arena for them to play in. That kind of thing works both ways.

Copps before JB

How it would look if JB would have got the team and brought it to Copps.

Check this out. http://smr.newswire.ca/en/jim-balsi...ls-dramatic-revitalization-for-copps-coliseum

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Agreed. A new/modern arena is/was part of the plan for both JB and Quebecor.

And the fact that a 15,000 seater is deemed acceptable for the "small market" of Winnipeg showed confidence in Winnipeg's willingness to pay for ticket prices much higher than what's seen in the southern/non traditional markets.



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-means-big-money-for-winnipeg/article2048916/

Wonder what ticket prices would be for any such Houston franchise

Here are Dallas' ticket prices http://stars.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=39283

They probably would be similar to Dallas'. The southern markets are held to a different standard than Canadian markets. Southern markets are trying to grow the game and develop fans that wouldn't otherwise be there. Canada, as a whole, likely doesn't have any new fans to develop. So they'll be operationally great in Winnipeg, Hamilton, and Quebec City as long as the arena situation is to their advantage, however, there's no expanding of the NHL's foot print in those markets. If things are equal between Quebec City, Hamilton, and Houston and the league gets to choose who gets a new team, I'm fairly certain it would be Houston due to the potential there. Obviously, potential can turn into no-tential if management runs things like the Thrashers did.

Copps before JB

How it would look if JB would have got the team and brought it to Copps.

Check this out. http://smr.newswire.ca/en/jim-balsi...ls-dramatic-revitalization-for-copps-coliseum

I don't think anyone doubts Hamilton's ability to support a franchise. I think the issue there is obviously the owner and that location's impact on other franchises.

 

[dronald]

They probably would be similar to Dallas'. The southern markets are held to a different standard than Canadian markets. Southern markets are trying to grow the game and develop fans that wouldn't otherwise be there. Canada, as a whole, likely doesn't have any new fans to develop. So they'll be operationally great in Winnipeg, Hamilton, and Quebec City as long as the arena situation is to their advantage, however, there's no expanding of the NHL's foot print in those markets. If things are equal between Quebec City, Hamilton, and Houston and the league gets to choose who gets a new team, I'm fairly certain it would be Houston due to the potential there. Obviously, potential can turn into no-tential if management runs things like the Thrashers did.

That's the thing though. If there is any type of bidding war, things will not be equal, rather it will go to whoever is willing to pay the most.

I don't think anyone doubts Hamilton's ability to support a franchise. I think the issue there is obviously the owner and that location's impact on other franchises.

Yeah, that was basically Burkes explanation, however the NHL has yet to confirm that this is true. Maybe there is much talk going on behind doors with the NHL and MLSE in order to keep a team out Hamilton, but this has been denied in court and to the media like crazy. So if a Billionaire is willing to spend big bucks to bring a team to Hamilton, they may have to stick to a different excuse besides, "Buffalo will go kurpluf if Hamilton gets a team."

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

They probably would be similar to Dallas'. The southern markets are held to a different standard than Canadian markets. Southern markets are trying to grow the game and develop fans that wouldn't otherwise be there. Canada, as a whole, likely doesn't have any new fans to develop. So they'll be operationally great in Winnipeg, Hamilton, and Quebec City as long as the arena situation is to their advantage, however, there's no expanding of the NHL's foot print in those markets. If things are equal between Quebec City, Hamilton, and Houston and the league gets to choose who gets a new team, I'm fairly certain it would be Houston due to the potential there. Obviously, potential can turn into no-tential if management runs things like the Thrashers did.



I don't think anyone doubts Hamilton's ability to support a franchise. I think the issue there is obviously the owner and that location's impact on other franchises.

I agree with everything you say.

Has it now become "expanding footprint" vs. "quick and easy money"?

 

[RTN]

If the price is right for him, why not? It's always puzzled me that there is only one team in Texas, not exactly hockey central, but still the second biggest US state.

Personally, I'd like to see Coyotes move to Pacific Northwest, with an eventual team in Quebec. Solves the whole splitting up Calgary Edmonton and Vancouver, because they'd never have to split up if it's really that important.

Also, could Victoria ever support an NHL team? It's not exactly hard to get there from Vancouver, and there are quite a few people on the southern half of Vancouver island anyways, right?I'll take an alternative to the Canucks anyday. (hope I wouldn't hate them more though )

Victoria isn't a hockey city. They're just getting WHL back after many years without it. There are also many Canucks fans who take the ferry to see games (North and South Island). On weekend games, it wouldn't surprise me if 3,000+ fans at a Canucks game are from Vancouver Island.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I agree with everything you say.

Has it now become "expanding footprint" vs. "quick and easy money"?

I think it's simply a matter of what's available at the time. If Quebec City turns out to be the only place with ownership and a hockey building suitable for the league, they're an easy choice just like the peg.