Brian Leetch vs Scott Niedermayer

[Embryo]

Who had the better career, who was the better player? Ultimately, who would you pick as your offensive defensemen first between the two?

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[Tucker McElroy]

Leetch. Not close

 

[GMR]

Niedermayer had the more accomplished career, but Leetch has a much higher peak. His play in the 1994 playoffs is far better than anything Niedermayer ever reached. The problem for Leetch is that his play tailed off in his later career.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

Niedermayer had the more accomplished career, but Leetch has a much higher peak. His play in the 1994 playoffs is far better than anything Niedermayer ever reached. The problem for Leetch is that his play tailed off in his later career.

How about Leetch's play in the 96 WC?

 

[MadLuke]

Niedermayer had the more accomplished career, but Leetch has a much higher peak. His play in the 1994 playoffs is far better than anything Niedermayer ever reached. The problem for Leetch is that his play tailed off in his later career.

Thought the same but he was still leading defenceman in points at 32 and getting Norris vote at 35 like for Niedermayer (Scott Niedermayer got a Selke vote at 36 too !?!).

Maybe Bourque/Lidstrom/MacInnis/Chelios and some other that aged exceptionally well make the Leetch/Coffey late career look worst than they were in retrospect, specially how young Leetch took off.

 

[Big Phil]

This is Leetch for sure. If we use it against Leetch that he tailed off a bit after 30 - which is rare for an elite defenseman - then we have to do the same thing for Niedermayer in reverse that he never really became elite until he was 30.

Peak seasons Leetch wins this hands down. I agree that the 1994 playoffs are far above anything Niedermayer did. There is no way knowing what you know or even just watching them on the ice that you pass on Leetch. He took things over on the ice. There were so many times in the first 10 years of Niedermayer's career where you saw a rare glimpse of him taking things over, but in Leetch's case he did this every game.

From the time Leetch was 20 years old he was a good defenseman in the NHL. In his 4th year he wins the Norris. He has a surprisingly scarce Hart record though. Even in his Norris wins he finishes 9th and 16th. Part of it would be with having Messier and then later Gretzky as teammates.

However, why did the Rangers lead the NHL in points in 1992, miss the playoffs in 1993 and then lead the NHL in points again in 1994? What is the common denominator? Leetch played just 36 games in 1993. That is no coincidence and it barely ever gets brought up. There is also a pretty good argument that Leetch has had the best playoff run in 1994 by a defenseman since Orr, even to this day. I'll gladly take Leetch here over Niedermayer.

 

[Voight]

Leetch in 94 is up there with not only the best playoff runs by a defensemen, but one of the best period. 3rd in goals, 1st in assets and points while playing on a very deep team. Messier gets a lot of credit (that is deserved) for the guarantee and leading the Rangers, but Leetch was an absolute machine that year.

 

[The Panther]

Agree with the consensus. Leetch reached a level Niedermayer didn't.

 

[Big Phil]

Leetch in 94 is up there with not only the best playoff runs by a defensemen, but one of the best period. 3rd in goals, 1st in assets and points while playing on a very deep team. Messier gets a lot of credit (that is deserved) for the guarantee and leading the Rangers, but Leetch was an absolute machine that year.

Right. Only Paul Coffey has had more points (37) or goals (12) in a single playoff season among defenseman than Leetch's 11 goal 34 point outburst in 1994. Dustin Byfuglien had 11 goals for the Hawks in 2010, but he was still a forward at that time. You have to give it to Orr as the best postseasons among defensemen overall, but if Leetch in 1994 isn't right after him it would be a good argument. I think his 1994 postseason beats Coffey's in 1985 because Leetch was the driving force offensively, while Coffey wasn't.

Even overall, I am trying to think of better postseasons from players. Gretzky and Lemieux come to mind, Orr's best does too. Obviously Howe and Richard in the original 6 had some good postseasons but with just two rounds. Beliveau in 1956. But seriously, post expansion, I honestly don't know if outside of Gretzky, Lemieux or Orr's best that you can find a better postseason than Leetch in 1994. MacInnis in 1989 was great, Potvin I guess has 1981 as his best and Robinson 1978. Lafleur in 1977 maybe? But it is better than Duncan Keith in 2015, or Pronger in 2006. Roy in 1993 comes to mind as well. Sakic in 1996, Malkin in 2009.

But yeah, he had 11 points in the finals too, and he is still probably the front runner for the Conn Smythe going into the final as well. I would argue that postseason is - at least post expansion - a top 5 performance.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Speaking of great and dominating playoffs for defensemen, not counting Niedermayer's Conn Smythe which at the very least was questionable to the tune of the Williams one, MacInnis is a much better comparable for Leetch. They might have had a different skillset to wreck havoc offensively but i find them like a pear and apple really, having their offense separating them from the pack but also being good all around. Leetch obviously was a bit uneven and with a shorter prime that makes him rank lower, but not by much.
Then compare MacInnis to Niedermayer and we can see the large distance of the latter up to Leetch as well.

 

[GMR]

Speaking of great and dominating playoffs for defensemen, not counting Niedermayer's Conn Smythe which at the very least was questionable to the tune of the Williams one, MacInnis is a much better comparable for Leetch. They might have had a different skillset to wreck havoc offensively but i find them like a pear and apple really, having their offense separating them from the pack but also being good all around. Leetch obviously was a bit uneven and with a shorter prime that makes him rank lower, but not by much.
Then compare MacInnis to Niedermayer and we can see the large distance of the latter up to Leetch as well.

I have MacInnis way ahead of Leetch. Better two way player and had a much longer prime. I never thought of Leetch being good all around. He was purely an offensive defenseman. The only comparable between them is they had two of the greatest playoff runs of any defensemen in history in 1989 and 1994. Leetch and Niedermayer are better comparables. Great skaters. More offensive minded.

 

[Pominville Knows]

I have MacInnis way ahead of Leetch. Better two way player and had a much longer prime. I never thought of Leetch being good all around. He was purely an offensive defenseman. The only comparable between them is they had two of the greatest playoff runs of any defensemen in history in 1989 and 1994. Leetch and Niedermayer are better comparables. Great skaters. More offensive minded.

Leetch was pretty fair defensively from time to time, of course relied on his speed to get back into position. However i hope someone else can go deeper into it becouse there is no doubt that he was known to be poor defensively at some stages in his career.

 

[wetcoast]

While Niedermeyer indeed didn't win a Norris until age 30 he was still an elite Dman before that.

He played 25 MPG aged 25-29 for 2 SC Devils teams.

He also played in the WC for Canada at age 23 and in the Olympics at age 28.

Leetch does have the higher peak and more sexy scoring stats but these 2 are closer than some are making out here.

 

[mrhockey193195]

I truly believe that as of the 1997 offseason, Leetch was trending for a career superior to Stevens & MacInnis, and close to Chelios. It makes Messier leaving for Vancouver, the Robitaille trade, and the Rangers' collapse one of my bigger (albeit homer) "what-ifs" in recent NHL history.

This is Leetch for sure. If we use it against Leetch that he tailed off a bit after 30 - which is rare for an elite defenseman - then we have to do the same thing for Niedermayer in reverse that he never really became elite until he was 30.

Perfectly said. I make this case a lot. Recency bias. People underrate Coffey, Leetch, even Chelios, and overrate Pronger, Niedermayer, to some degree Lidstrom (note: all listed are sure fire HOFers, I'm not trying to disparage any of them).

 

[wetcoast]

I truly believe that as of the 1997 offseason, Leetch was trending for a career superior to Stevens & MacInnis, and close to Chelios. It makes Messier leaving for Vancouver, the Robitaille trade, and the Rangers' collapse one of my bigger (albeit homer) "what-ifs" in recent NHL history.

Perhaps, hard to say but the NYR sure did enter the desert after 97, although personally I think the writing was on the wall after the 96 playoffs, one more swan song Gretzky playoff in 97 maybe hides that a bit.

Perfectly said. I make this case a lot. Recency bias. People underrate Coffey, Leetch, even Chelios, and overrate Pronger, Niedermayer, to some degree Lidstrom (note: all listed are sure fire HOFers, I'm not trying to disparage any of them).

I think it's more of Leetch always being a really heavy PPP producer and Niedermeyer playing a more complete game, less reliant on points.

In fact Leetch scored 52.7% of his career points on the PP, Niedermeyer just 45.3%

 

[trentmccleary]

I think it's more of Leetch always being a really heavy PPP producer and Niedermeyer playing a more complete game, less reliant on points.

In fact Leetch scored 52.7% of his career points on the PP, Niedermeyer just 33.1%

Niedermayer scored 45.3% of his career points on the PP.

 

[wetcoast]

Niedermayer scored 45.3% of his career points on the PP.

My bad, I inadvertently only counted his assists, will correct.

 

[Thenameless]

My initial gut reaction to this was that Leetch is better, and not just by a little. I looked them both up, and the stats/awards/etc confirm my belief. Niedermayer's cool trivia about being a member of the Triple Gold Club just means he's good enough to make a dominant Team Canada that's usually expected to win at various levels anyway. And that Kamloops Blazers team that he was on is probably one of the strongest CHL teams of all time. A really good player who was always in the right place at the right time whether we're talking the Blazers, Devils, Ducks, or Team Canada. I remember a few of his end-to-end rushes that resulted in beautiful goals, but while spectacular, they were few and far between. Leetch just had a better overall grasp of how to play the game; a better quarterback if you will.

 

[JackSlater]

Leetch a half tier or so above Niedermayer.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Leetch was pretty fair defensively from time to time, of course relied on his speed to get back into position. However i hope someone else can go deeper into it becouse there is no doubt that he was known to be poor defensively at some stages in his career.

I have slept on it now, was it that he lost his fair defense near the end of his offensive prime? Like he just could not do both at the same time by that point? Or was he just up and down regarding that throughout his career like Letang?

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, there's a "what if" factor with Leetch, isn't there? Like, what if the Rangers had been competitive -- instead of a defensive trainwreck -- between 1997 and 2004? How much greater would Leetch's career look?

Leetch, if I recall another thread on this, has the single biggest "plus" to "minus" (or vice versa) of any player in NHL history, between 1997 and 1998, when he went from +31 to -36 in one year. That is precipitous! It's kind of symbolic of the shift The Rangers experienced between those two seasons that saw them quickly heading into the crapper.

It's not like Leetch didn't often look good during those 8 dark years in Manhattan. He scored 79 points in 2000-01, and the next year had 55 points and went +14 on a club with a losing record.

 

[Big Phil]

While Niedermeyer indeed didn't win a Norris until age 30 he was still an elite Dman before that.

He played 25 MPG aged 25-29 for 2 SC Devils teams.

He also played in the WC for Canada at age 23 and in the Olympics at age 28.

Leetch does have the higher peak and more sexy scoring stats but these 2 are closer than some are making out here.

Niedermayer from 1992-2003 had one season where he was a 2nd team all-star and that was 1998. Outside of that he finished 12th in Norris voting. That's it. I know we romanticize Niedermayer but the honest truth is the reason he was picked for Canada in 1996 and 2002 and probably should have been in 1998 was his skating and sooner or later we all figured he was going to realize the thing we all knew about him was that he could skate and should use it as a weapon more than once every 10 games. When the 2003 playoffs came he broke out, then won the Norris in 2004 and then had two great seasons in 2006 and 2007. Then had that weird semi-retirement and played 3 more seasons, never coming close to the Norris but having a reputation as a great defensemen.

In reality his prime was 2003-'07. Not long at all. It should have been longer and he should have figured things out long before 2003. It was basically 10 years where he was on the cusp of breaking out, yet he never did. Leetch pretty much dove into his prime right away. From 1988-'97 that was his prime and it was much better than Niedermayer's. Not to mention even post 1997 when Leetch was saddled with poor teams he still finished 5th and 8th for the Norris. Leetch was better in his prime, had a longer prime, and was better post 1997 than Niedermayer was pre-2003.

I honestly don't know how this isn't Leetch in a landslide. MacInnis to me has an edge over Leetch. This is noticeable because MacInnis was good right until the end. But compare MacInnis to Niedermayer and it isn't even close. Leetch is closer to MacInnis than he is Niedermayer. But either way the separation is there.

Is there anyone who takes Niedermayer on their team as a GM over Leetch?

 

[The Panther]

I'm gonna say right now that, based on peak or prime, Leetch is easily over MacInnis!

It's a bit of that thing that @mrhockey193195 was alluding to early, that we tend to remember players more at the end than at the beginning or middle. We all know MacInnis was still playing on a good team and still looked good up to 2002 or 2003, and we know Leetch fell off by then and in his last couple of years.

But, here's the thing: MacInnis wasn't ever considered the best player on the Flames from 1983 to 1991. Full marks for his '89 Conn Smythe (though no one would have batted an eye had it gone to Gilmour or Vernon... or Mullen), but I never thought MacInnis had the individual impact that Leetch had. Leetch was a star from the moment he stepped into the League in spring '88.

In pure hockey skill, Leetch was all over MacInnis. Leetch is one of the greatest skaters I've ever seen, and had an uncanny lateral movement at the blue-line. While MacInnis certainly had the best slap-shot in the NHL from the point (both for scoring and for deflections/rebounds), Leetch could do any shot extremely well -- snap-shot, wrister, slapper.

Was MacInnis better defensively than Leetch? He probably was... but only by a little, not a lot. I grew up watching MacInnis play, and I always had the impression he was too soft physically for a guy who was obviously strong.

MacInnis was like a power-play specialist who was also above-average at even strength. Leetch was great on power-plays, too, but I don't think he depended on it to contribute to offense as much as MacInnis.

So, did MacInnis age better? Undoubtedly, yes. Did MacInnis have a longer, more consistent career? Yes. Were both awesome players? Yes. But I think Leetch reached a level that MacInnis never could, circa 199o to 1997.

 

[wetcoast]

Niedermayer from 1992-2003 had one season where he was a 2nd team all-star and that was 1998. Outside of that he finished 12th in Norris voting. That's it. I know we romanticize Niedermayer but the honest truth is the reason he was picked for Canada in 1996 and 2002 and probably should have been in 1998 was his skating and sooner or later we all figured he was going to realize the thing we all knew about him was that he could skate and should use it as a weapon more than once every 10 games. When the 2003 playoffs came he broke out, then won the Norris in 2004 and then had two great seasons in 2006 and 2007. Then had that weird semi-retirement and played 3 more seasons, never coming close to the Norris but having a reputation as a great defensemen.

In reality his prime was 2003-'07. Not long at all. It should have been longer and he should have figured things out long before 2003. It was basically 10 years where he was on the cusp of breaking out, yet he never did. Leetch pretty much dove into his prime right away. From 1988-'97 that was his prime and it was much better than Niedermayer's. Not to mention even post 1997 when Leetch was saddled with poor teams he still finished 5th and 8th for the Norris. Leetch was better in his prime, had a longer prime, and was better post 1997 than Niedermayer was pre-2003.

I honestly don't know how this isn't Leetch in a landslide. MacInnis to me has an edge over Leetch. This is noticeable because MacInnis was good right until the end. But compare MacInnis to Niedermayer and it isn't even close. Leetch is closer to MacInnis than he is Niedermayer. But either way the separation is there.

Is there anyone who takes Niedermayer on their team as a GM over Leetch?

Sure his Norris voting wasn't great before winning it for 2 reasons.

His PP usage wasn't top tier and we all know points matter in Norris voting.

He also played under the shadow of Scott Stevens who was everyone's dream player in the clutch and grab era, whee the Devils could corral a player and line them up for that famous Scott Stevens hit (which would be illegal today and for good reason).

Niedermeyer was playing top pairing MPG (24 MPG) from his second season onwards from the data we have.

The first season is 24:40 in 98-99 but if we use the ESGF and ESGA and SOG and compare backwards it's pretty clear he was getting top pairing MPG from 93-94 and probably pretty close to it in 92-93 as well.

I can see why most would take Leetch in his peak and prime (I would too) but careerwise there isn't a huge gap overall IMO.

Leetch really gets the nod in peak and prime for his elite PP QB ability and that's the real difference between the 2 guys.

 

[Thenameless]

Leetch really gets the nod in peak and prime for his elite PP QB liability and that's the real difference between the 2 guys.

I'm sure you mean "ability" here, right?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Niedermayer had the more accomplished career,

is that even true? i guess if you add up all the trophies his team won, then maybe. but if we take team accomplishments with a grain of salt, i don't see niedermayer decisively ahead of leetch.

leetch: cup, conn smythe, captained team USA to the '96 world cup, canada cup and olympic silvers, two norrises, five post-season all-stars in a seven year stretch where the field of players who legitimately could have won a norris any year went six deep


that said, i think leetch is being overrated by some in this thread. among the big six of that post-mark howe/pre-lidstrom golden age of defensemen, i have leetch the clear #6. with the exception of coffey at the very end, there's not a single year from, say, 1989 to 1997 where i would have chosen leetch over any of them to anchor my d for any reason other than he was by far the youngest and (presumably) had the most years ahead of him.

and when i hear things like leetch's 1994 playoffs is the best playoffs by a defenseman since orr, or that it's one of the greatest conn smythe runs period, i really wonder how much leetch's flashy playing style is giving him a bump here. i can't speak to potvin's runs because i didn't see them, but i have leetch's '94 solidly in the ballpark of '89 macinnis, '90 bourque, '93 chelios, '06 pronger, and '13 keith. i *might* consider a lidstrom or stevens year (or two) in that group too. decisively below that group, is '03 niedermayer, alongside doughty's two cup runs. obviously '07 niedermayer is well behind those, and probably also behind pronger's other two runs, both of keith's as well, among others.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm sure you mean "ability" here, right?

Roger that, damn autocorrect.