Brian Burke's proposal

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ak47

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I posted this comment on another thread but it seems more relevant here; IMO it doesn't matter what the terms of the new CBA ultimately are. What matters most is who implements the changes on the owners behalf. Rich Winter said of Kevin Lowe, "nice guy, but what qualifies him to run a $100 MM business?" How true is that? Is it any coincidence that Gretz hired an ex-player agent to run his organization? While we may argue the merits of the players that were signed, I don't think many of us can say that Phoenix overpaid for many of the assets they acquired.

To start leveling the playing field, owners need to start hiring real businessmen that understand business. Leave the hockey people is place but let them do what they do best: evaluate talent, chemistry and character. Let business people run the business of hockey and you'll see better marketing, cost control, better contracts and a strict adherance to budgets in whatever CBA is ultimately negotiated.
 

ti-vite

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Correct me if i'm wrong.

In the NBA when a player reaches UFA status and the said player signs with the same team he was on for big dollars, the team is not penalized by the taxing system, the excess dollars over the cap is not accounted for as a penalty.

This in order to generate a sense of 'homelyness' i guess and try and keep players local.

Would this help teams like Ottawa that build up a team from prospects by not having to disband everything when a player gets to be 29? :dunno:
 

Don Draper

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ti-vite said:
Correct me if i'm wrong.

In the NBA when a player reaches UFA status and the said player signs with the same team he was on for big dollars, the team is not penalized by the taxing system, the excess dollars over the cap is not accounted for as a penalty.

This in order to generate a sense of 'homelyness' i guess and try and keep players local.

Would this help teams like Ottawa that build up a team from prospects by not having to disband everything when a player gets to be 29? :dunno:

this is refered to as the Larry Bird Rule. It would help a team like ottawa somewhat, but not as much as it does in bball. See, basketball being a 12 man team, and usually an 8-9 man rotation, you really only need 2-3 recognizable players that you can latch on to. In contrast, Ottawa has Alfie, Hoss, Redden, Chara, Havlat, Phillips and Fisher that no one in the city wants to see leave. So it would be great if we could use the LBR on say Hossa to go over the rule some, but we still would risk losing the rest of those assets. Bball isnt much of a team game anymore, where as hockey is extremely team oriented.
 

CH

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It would be good if this proposal was on the table. It is more of a starting point for negotiation than anything that has been offered in the past.

However, I think there are several reasons that this proposal would not fly.

The biggest is defining designated hockey revenue. In order to make any sense of the NHL books, one must be a forensic accountant - and even then, there is no consensus of the current state of affairs. Most (if not all) financial numbers leaked to the media, must be taken with a grain of salt. They are propoganda in a labor war. They are hardly unbiased subjective numbers. Many are clearly laughable in that they make so sense whatsoever. This clearly leads to a mistrust between the NHLPA and NHL about any and all financial numbers. Defining hockey revenue in this situation is nearly impossible. In all likelihood, the definition will have loopholes (hard to imagine it could be perfect). It may miss out on some revenue streams that either exist today or may start in the near future and become significant as time passes. Being locked in for 12 years with a possibly poor DHR defition is a scary prospect for the NHLPA. Something that does not define revenue, allowing owners to set budgets as they see fit is preferable. Maybe an equitable defintion can be found - but I imagine more than likely, we would see another strike/lockout at the conclusion of this agreement which is based on trying to ammend a faulty DHR definition.

Payroll thresholds and minimums un der this kind of system would have to be tied to the DHR somehow and not fixed numbers as they appear in Burke's proposal. I imagine all that could be worked out. However, thresholds and minimums will limit the options of teams in the future. A team like Ottawa or Tampa Bay that build a very good team that can win several Stanley Cups will have no chance to do so under this poropsal. No way can the keep their core together under this system. The luxory tax as it stands is too high to give them any chance to chose to exceed the maximum payrolls. 500% luxory tax would prevent any team from attempting that (being 5 mill over threshold still has payroll in the $40 mill range without tax which is hardly unreasonable under the current CBA). Payroll minimums are also a problem. It forces a rebuilding to team to overpay some aging journeymen to fill roster spots that would be better used for cheap young guys with potential. Could Ottawa or Tampa Bay have become the team they are now if they were forced to keep up a minimum payroll which would require them signing 30 somethings to take playing time from the guys who developed into the stars of today? Their current stars would not have been given the chance to mature. Payroll thresholds and minimums enforce mediocrity through the league. As a fan, thats a bad situation.

Lowering UFA age is another step to make it harder to keep good teams together. If you produce a player who leaves as a UFA before he has the best seasons of his career with your team, you are making the value of scouting and player development far less. 29 is not nearly as bad as 27, but its a step in the wrong direction.

Making qualifying offers on players 50% or 75% of their current salary is problematic. There will be many situations where a player who is a solid successful 4th liner gets offered a contract with a pay cut and has two options. Take it or leave it. No leverage to do anything else.

Salary arbitration changes seem fair to me. Why not have a situation where all RFA's are scheduled to go to arbitration if they have received a qualifying offer and not signed any contract by mid-August? It would reduce the need for holdouts in the next season. That is a good thing. Following baseball's high/low system makes sense to me.

My opinion is the best CBA would be one where the current on is tweaked. Defining hockey revenues is such a complex problem, that it would likely lead to many more fights about interpretation of the defintion and how to handle revenue streams that emerge and are not discussed. Its probably best not to go there. Salary caps and floors lead to mediocrity. Its impossible to keep a good team together with a salary cap. Its rediculous to force a team that clearly should rebuild to ice a team of Mikko Eloranta and Matthew Barnaby types to take ice time from their cheap young players in order to reach a salary floor.

Reducing UFA age makes it hard for a team to keep talent they produced long enough for them to see the best years of the careers of that talent.

A luxory tax could be feasable, but it cannot be nearly as high a percentage as Burke has. It must be feasable for a team in an Ottawa sized market to keep together the talent that they produced without paying 500% tax. Obviously this money must be shared somehow. That creates the problem of salary floors or how to make sure that this money is re-invested into the team. These details, unless worked out properly, could kill this idea.

In closing, is anyone skeptical about Burke's proposal in that it may be NHL propoganda? Burke was vice president of the NHL in the past, and although being between NHL jobs (its just a matter of time before he gets hired) has always been quite loyal to the NHL's cause in the current NHL/NHLPA dispute. I think, this may be the NHL's way to try this proposal in the media without ever officially backing it. This is a negotiation ploy. They likely have more planned as time passes. This is the first attempt at a compromise the NHL has offered. Yet, they are not officially offering it, so if the NHLPA ever latched onto it, they are capable of negotiating it to better suit NHL causes using this as a guideline to begin negotiations.
 

Chili

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In closing, is anyone skeptical about Burke's proposal in that it may be NHL propoganda?

No. His sympathies may lie on one side but he is his own man and a straight shooter. These points are his true feelings on an equitable, workable deal, imo.
 

copperandblue

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CH said:
It would be good if this proposal was on the table. It is more of a starting point for negotiation than anything that has been offered in the past.

What's to suggest that this type of proposal isn't out there?

Although I don't buy into the idea that this is NHL propaganda funnelled through Burke, I do think that it is reasonable to assume that this is precisely one of the types of proposals that the league has put forward.

Burke has the specific experience of this type of negotiation, he has inside knowledge of the league and how it works and should have a pretty darn good idea of what type of deal it is looking for considering he is only 2 months removed from the league.

The PA guy himself said yesterday that they consider a luxury tax that has very high penalties is the same as a hard cap... at a 5:1 ratio such as Burke is proposing, the PA could just as easily dismiss this proposal as a non starter due to salary cap.
 

PecaFan

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Other Dave said:
I won't go into how awful I think this proposal is. I'll just point out that these suggestions would utterly destroy Ottawa's hopes of ever becoming more than a bubble team. Therefore, as a Sens fan, I'm against it.

What!? Enlighten us, what's in there that could possibly affect the Sens?

Ottawa managed to become a very good team under the old CBA, and this one is far easier to compete under.
 

The Fuhr*

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PecaFan said:
What!? Enlighten us, what's in there that could possibly affect the Sens?

Ottawa managed to become a very good team under the old CBA, and this one is far easier to compete under.


It would affect the Sens in great deal. If there is a Luxuary tax like the one Burke has proposed then the sens won't be able to retain all there players as they get older and thus better. Put the Luxuary tax at 50 million and then it is a good proposal.
 

garry1221

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Fuhr86 said:
It would affect the Sens in great deal. If there is a Luxuary tax like the one Burke has proposed then the sens won't be able to retain all there players as they get older and thus better. Put the Luxuary tax at 50 million and then it is a good proposal.

who's to say whether a ssytem like burke proposed would harm the sens or any younger team for that matter, as the plan would be implemented you'd see salaries drop leaguewide, therefore giving all players a more set standard for what they could be making, this in itself gives all teams a fair stance to re-sign their young stars, while not worrying about going over the threshold, or at least not going over it by too much to seriously hurt the franchise
 

Other Dave

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Under the current system (current for the next seven hours anyway), every team in the league has an equal opportunity to compete, regardless of the income their market generates. This is because the current system acts to dampen the salaries of the best players until their careers are in decline, and because every team has access to the very best players from age 18 through their peak years through the draft and by restricting employee movement.

Any cap system will force teams who have acquired a large number of excellent players through the draft to give some of them away to less competent-drafting teams, as those players reach an age where they deserve larger salaries. A luxury tax system is even worse, since that system does what the current system will not allow: give teams in naturally high-revenue markets the ability to wield their revenue advantages over the rest of the league. Add to that a provision lowering the age of unrestricted free agency to the typical PEAK years of a player's production (28-29) and you have a system that gives an enormous competitive advantage to the big markets.

Under the current CBA, it's reasonable to assume that a winning Ottawa Senators team can afford an East Rutherford-level player personnel budget, since hockey revenues increase dramatically when a team wins. Under Burke's proposed system, Ottawa will have to kick some players out the door and lose others outright in a bidding war regardless of their on-ice performance, miring them hopelessly and indefinitely in the middle of the pack, at best.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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Other Dave said:
Under the current system (current for the next seven hours anyway), every team in the league has an equal opportunity to compete, regardless of the income their market generates. This is because the current system acts to dampen the salaries of the best players until their careers are in decline, and because every team has access to the very best players from age 18 through their peak years through the draft and by restricting employee movement.

Any cap system will force teams who have acquired a large number of excellent players through the draft to give some of them away to less competent-drafting teams, as those players reach an age where they deserve larger salaries. A luxury tax system is even worse, since that system does what the current system will not allow: give teams in naturally high-revenue markets the ability to wield their revenue advantages over the rest of the league. Add to that a provision lowering the age of unrestricted free agency to the typical PEAK years of a player's production (28-29) and you have a system that gives an enormous competitive advantage to the big markets.

Under the current CBA, it's reasonable to assume that a winning Ottawa Senators team can afford an East Rutherford-level player personnel budget, since hockey revenues increase dramatically when a team wins. Under Burke's proposed system, Ottawa will have to kick some players out the door and lose others outright in a bidding war regardless of their on-ice performance, miring them hopelessly and indefinitely in the middle of the pack, at best.
what would ottawa do under the current system if they didn't have melnyk as owner? lose every big name UFA one by one, that's what. if a team doesn't have owners with big pockets, the current system does NOT work. the penguins were loaded at one point too, and we've lost allstar after allstar under this current CBA.
 

MS

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Good things in this proposal:

1) Would set the average NHL payroll at 36-37 million, which is close to sawing off between the $31 million the owners are asking for and the $44 million the players want to maintain. Maybe a little too much toward the owners, but pretty reasonable.

2) Reduced RFA qualifiers. 50% might be overkill, but there should be room at least for a 10-20% drop if a player slumps.

3) Entry-level salary cutbacks. Definitely needed.

4) Establishes most ownership goals without a hard cap.

5) Revenue sharing to help smaller teams.

6) Improved arbitration system.

Negative things about the proposal:

1) Luxury tax is too stringent ... under this system no-one would go over $40 million. Can step it up way more gradually and still maintain most positive effects.

2) Salary floor is too high and shouldn't be mandatory. If teams want to ice a $25 million payroll, they should be able to if they're willing to forfeit their rights to revenue sharing.

Essentially there should be more room for a few teams to go higher than the $38 million and a few teams to go lower than the $33 million ... the net effect wouldn't be huge but it would go a long way to preserve the current rules or organizational building.

3) UFA age that low makes me uneasy.

4) Reduced regular season. Makes no sense. Doesn't gain the owners anything and hurts the players a great deal. Stay with an 82-game season and the payroll window should move from $33-38 million to something like $36-41 million, which would be a lot more player-friendly.


Definitely better, though, than anything either side has proposed so far ... would provide some decent base for negotiation at least.
 

Other Dave

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Dark Metamorphosis said:
what would ottawa do under the current system if they didn't have melnyk as owner? lose every big name UFA one by one, that's what. if a team doesn't have owners with big pockets, the current system does NOT work.

Ottawa's financial woes had nothing to do with the current CBA, and everything to do with a foolishly optomistic debt-financing scheme that the previous owner used to buy the team. (I do wish folks would educate themselves about the Ottawa situation before citing it inappropriately as an example).

Ottawa's ability to retain its talent, on the other hand, has nothing to do with 'an owner with big pockets' and everything to do with its ability to generate hockey revenues. The early playoff exit in 04 forced the Sens to shed over EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS in top-flight player assets, in order to retain the rest. A few more blown seasons will see the team sold of piece-by-piece, no matter how rich Melnyk is.

On the other hand, a successful run or two will guarantee that Ottawa will be able to retain and build its team in the same fashion as East Rutherford and Denver.

Finally, if Ottawa loses each and every player as he attains UFA age, that's fine with me. Twelve years of an elite-level player is fair value as far as I'm concerned, and the team is young enough that that sad day is a long way off.

What I'm concerned about, as a Sens fan, is Ottawa losing Havlat to cap concerns at age 24 (!), and Chara to unrestricted free agency at 29 because New York can afford to pay the fine.

the penguins were loaded at one point too, and we've lost allstar after allstar under this current CBA.

The pens lost their team because the owner during the Cup-winning era chose to cash out rather than reinvest his profits. Ten years ago the Pens were one of the most profitable franchises in the league. But of course you knew that already.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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Other Dave said:
Ottawa's financial woes had nothing to do with the current CBA, and everything to do with a foolishly optomistic debt-financing scheme that the previous owner used to buy the team. (I do wish folks would educate themselves about the Ottawa situation before citing it inappropriately as an example).

Ottawa's ability to retain its talent, on the other hand, has nothing to do with 'an owner with big pockets' and everything to do with its ability to generate hockey revenues. The early playoff exit in 04 forced the Sens to shed over EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS in top-flight player assets, in order to retain the rest. A few more blown seasons will see the team sold of piece-by-piece, no matter how rich Melnyk is.

On the other hand, a successful run or two will guarantee that Ottawa will be able to retain and build its team in the same fashion as East Rutherford and Denver.

Finally, if Ottawa loses each and every player as he attains UFA age, that's fine with me. Twelve years of an elite-level player is fair value as far as I'm concerned, and the team is young enough that that sad day is a long way off.

What I'm concerned about, as a Sens fan, is Ottawa losing Havlat to cap concerns at age 24 (!), and Chara to unrestricted free agency at 29 because New York can afford to pay the fine.



The pens lost their team because the owner during the Cup-winning era chose to cash out rather than reinvest his profits. Ten years ago the Pens were one of the most profitable franchises in the league. But of course you knew that already.
if there's a cap or a strict luxury tax, market value for guys like havlat and chara will go way down. you won't have to worry about shelling out 6 million dollars a year for havlat or 8 million for chara.

the owners are unanimous in their request for a cap. i'm sure melnyk knows the ottawa situation quite well..i wonder why he wants a cap when you're saying a cap/luxury tax would be bad for ottawa? i doubt he wants to see his team torn apart.
 

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Dark Metamorphosis said:
if there's a cap or a strict luxury tax, market value for guys like havlat and chara will go way down. you won't have to worry about shelling out 6 million dollars a year for havlat or 8 million for chara.

I disagree. Gamebreakers will make the same or more money than under the current CBA, in particular since a lower UFA age will give teams more incentive to lure such players away from their home teams.

the owners are unanimous in their request for a cap. i'm sure melnyk knows the ottawa situation quite well..i wonder why he wants a cap when you're saying a cap/luxury tax would be bad for ottawa? i doubt he wants to see his team torn apart.

Perpetual profits in perpetuity is even better for Melnyk than his current high-risk, high-payoff situation.
 

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thinkwild said:
Escrow is interesting. Owners hold back money too. Thos 2 arent enough. The arena fund gets the escrow interest or leftovers?




Yuck. No rebuilding. No Greatness. No learning from NFLs mistakes





Designated Hockey Revenues? Seems to be a deal killer right there. This is a compromise to who exactly?

Luxury taxes seem pretty extreme.

Otherwise some interesting ideas.


The arguments about DHR's are endless. The Rangers, according to one claim, lost $40 million last season, which would take some serious twisting on someone's part. For what it's worth, here is a site detailing the NBA's CBA, including a section on Basketball Related Income(BRI). Have fun.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#12 :teach:
 

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Financially, I don't have a problem with it if other clauses make sense. But one of the reasons I think the NHL has lost its magic is due to too many transactions. Athletes just don't stay put anymore and that is REALLY unfortunate, IMO.

You lower the age to 29 and players retiring with the same jersey on their back that they started with will be even more uncommon than it has already become. I really enjoy talking trades. I LOVE trade rumors and I love hockey moves on a strategic level. That's why I love fantasy hockey (where I often try to pull one trade a week on average). But in reality, you want athletes that care about a city and fans that relate and care about the athlete.

I think we have lost this in sports.


Ya but mostly if a player leaves a team its more or less up to him...Yzerman, Lemieux, Sakic all have stayed on the same team because the love the people and the city. And with a soft cap (maybe?) Then it would be alot easyer to resign the players. Hopefully with some sort of cap hard or soft in the future it will be completely up to the player if he wants to leave then having to give up your stars because of $$
 

me2

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Peter Griffin said:
I don't like the lowering of the UFA age either, but you can't just expect the NHLPA to rollover and give up everything, you have to give some to get a lot.

I actually like the minumum $33 mil payroll idea. With a luxury tax, the poorer teams are going to be receiving money, so the priority of the league should be to make sure that these teams are investing that money into their teams, creating for a more balanced NHL. Perhaps $33 is a bit too high though, $31 mil may be a better number.

One thing it does is stop teams tanking for high picks. Its pretty hard to ensure a well tanked season with close payrolls.
 

PecaFan

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Fuhr86 said:
It would affect the Sens in great deal. If there is a Luxuary tax like the one Burke has proposed then the sens won't be able to retain all there players as they get older and thus better. Put the Luxuary tax at 50 million and then it is a good proposal.

You've got it backwards. Under the current system, your salaries are going to explode, and you'll lose guys. Under a new system, you'll actually be able to keep salaries down, and not lose them.
 

me2

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thinkwild said:
And I guess the lowering of the age of free agency to 29 is the part thats needed to save the large markets. This will let them start buying more useful players for a change. This must be what the big markets are really after. Getting hold of star players from poor teams while they are still in their prime. Its been a long frustrating 10 years for big markets. Next time when they spend, they should have a better chance of winning.


No it won't. Burke's cap is pretty brutal on over spenders. At most they might squeeze effectively $4m more out payroll but that is about it. Big markets are might want these players but won't always be anywhere near getting them when it comes time. Big market teams will operate above cap but below pain threshold. If Igilna comes on to the market and wants $5m, and NYR is overbudget, is Igilna worth paying $25m in luxury tax?

Set overage fees at:

* 1st million = $0.50 on the dollar
* 2nd million = $1 per dollar
* 3rd million = $2 per dollar
* 4th million = $3 per dollar
* 5th million or more = $5 per dollar

over cap, luxury tax
1m = 500K
2m = 1.5m
3m = 3.5m
4m = 6.5m
5m = 11.5m
6m = 16.5m
7m = 21.5m
8m = 26.5m
9m = 31.5m
10m = 36.5m

If NYR wants has $84.5m for salary/tax, they get a team worth $48m and a tax bill of $36.5m. Or they could field a team with $42m and a tax bill of 6.5m. Is that last 6m team gain really with $30m in cap pain? Teams will baulk at the $5m + range.

Its a good system.
 
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me2

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Other Dave said:
I won't go into how awful I think this proposal is. I'll just point out that these suggestions would utterly destroy Ottawa's hopes of ever becoming more than a bubble team. Therefore, as a Sens fan, I'm against it.

What makes you think Ottawa can keep the current team together under the current financial arrangements long enough to become a dynasty. Base that on hockey revenues not on how much the owner is prepared to bleed red ink.
 
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Other Dave

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me2 said:
If NYR wants has $84.5m for salary/tax, they get a team worth $48m and a tax bill of $36.5m.

So a team with New York's resources (since they can surely support an $85 million budget) has an extra ten million to dangle in front of players whose salaries are otherwise severely compromised by the low salary ceilings.

In other words, if the elite teams in Burkeworld spend say $12 million dollars on their top line, New York would be able to double their salaries. $4 million to play in bumble-**** Calgary or $7.5 million to play in the City that Never Sleeps? Which would you choose?
 

Other Dave

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me2 said:
What makes you think Ottawa can keep the current team together under the current financial arrangements long enough to become a dynasty. Base that on hockey revenues not on how much the owner is prepared to bleed red ink.

I spent a number of years watching an extremely marginal hockey market in East Ruthorford, New Jersey, put together the greatest dynasty of the last decade. If that team can do it, and manage revenues that support a $60 million payroll, then Ottawa certainly can, at the epicenter of the hockey world, with a more modern building and five times the luxury suites.
 

Coffey77

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Interesting proposal from Burke. I think the luxury tax exemption at $38 is a little low but I do want a team to really be penalized if they do break the threshold. But having the salaries at 33-38? I don't want the NHL to be like the NFL. Or Baseball since the luxury tax only affects one team. I like the NBA model the best.

I don't like lowering the UFA age. I understand that it would actually help owners in a way since more supply means lower demand (less $$$). But I like following teams and players on those teams. I don't like the constant turnover like it is in the NFL.

What's the penalty for not meeting the salary floor of $33 million? I certainly don't want an owner to ice an ECHL squad but what if he's legitimately rebuilding with youngsters? I don't want him to just add expensive players for no reason other than to meet a salary floor.

I just hope they get a deal done soon. But it's not looking good at all.
 

me2

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Other Dave said:
I spent a number of years watching an extremely marginal hockey market in East Ruthorford, New Jersey, put together the greatest dynasty of the last decade. If that team can do it, and manage revenues that support a $60 million payroll, then Ottawa certainly can, at the epicenter of the hockey world, with a more modern building and five times the luxury suites.

Ottawa put up ticket prices by 10.5% last year and they are still 4.5%lower than NJs who didn't put them up at all. Its hard to see Ottawa getting away with another large jump.

Canadian $ & taxes

NJ's is supposed to have one worth around US$12-13. What is Ottawa's local TV deal worth?

Finally, NJ achieved its success on the back of a cup win. Ottawa has yet to win one.

I don't think any canadian team outside of the Leafs can operate a $60m level. Even $50m is pushing to the point were teams are risking loses if they don't get good playoff runs.
 
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