News Article: Brian Burke, Mike O’Connell feud over claims about Joe Thornton trade talks

[HustleB]

Burke, O'Connell feud over Joe Thornton - ProHockeyTalk | NBC Sports

I can’t copy paste the tweets but most interestingly Burke claims in 2005 the Ducks offered to protect 5 players on their roster, Bruins would have been allowed to take the 6th best player. In addition Bruins would have received another roster player, a prospect and a first round pick.

As a reminder we received Stuart, Sturm and Primeau.

O’Connell claims it’s fabricated. I wonder if any insiders have insight on this?

Click to read more...

 

[McGarnagle]

I don't believe a word that has ever out of Burke's mouth.

It was well reported at the time that MOC didn't speak to anybody beyond Doug Wilson and that 28 other teams had no idea Thornton was on the block.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

That’s not a better offer than what we got. 6th best player on the Ducks would have been someone like Wayne Primeau. It was everyone goods first year in Anaheim Neidermayer and Selanne had just signed as free agents and guys like Getzlaf were rooks.

MOC is still a clown but Burke looks just as bad here.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I don't believe a word that has ever out of Burke's mouth.

It was well reported at the time that MOC didn't speak to anybody beyond Doug Wilson and that 28 other teams had no idea Thornton was on the block.

think about this... who on earth besides mike occonnell could possibly know this.

youd have to hook the entire world {or at least the other gms} to lie detectors to verify this. by the way, any of them who did come out and say they were in discussions for joe thornton would be guilty of tampering after he becomes property of another team. you arent allowed by the rules of the nhl to talk about players under contract to other teams.

I know there was a few reporters with 'questionable agendas' who like to slam boston when they can... who quoted 'unnamed gms' with the story being 'we werent given a chance to bid on thornton'

now we have a real gm of that time period who says he did bid

but as for the entire what was being offered... we know that there was issues between boston and burke before with the whole first round pick in the kessel/karberle swap thing... and then there was the messed up trade of wanvig for hoglund where the fax didnt work.

Occonnel still wants to keep his job in the NHL and having one of Canada's highest profile media figure heads criticizing him probably doesnt help the stink stigma go away. im sure Occonnel doesnt want to leave critism go unanswered and the easiest thing to do is say its not true

but really... either we can believe occonnel didnt shop thornton at all, or we can believe he turned down other offers... one of those 2 things HAS TO BE TRUE

I dont necessarily agree that burkes deal was better. Brad Stuart still had people believing he was a very legit top 2 dman when we dealt for him... thats the equivalent of a a player not in the top 6 of a team.

and then sturm was a 30 goal scorer with 2 way commitment. thats better than an unknown first round pick. and primeau was a roster player.

burke says he thought his offer was better? im not convinced it was better. our deal didnt work out well because stuart's wife wasnt happy in boston. he ended up leaving as an undervalued asset. sturm had his career come to an end when he ran into injuries.

but the trade for us was more than just what we were getting back for players. it was also about resetting the leadership in the locker room... and it was about freeing up some cap room to bring in a true impact player.

theres very little doubt in my mind we dont get chara if we still had thornton. how much did having sturm/stuart here help convince chara to sign on? if we had grabbed unknown picks/prospects with the thornton trade does chara still sign on?

I think that chara coming had a lot to do with Chiarelli being on board too. do we get Chiarelli if occonnel makes that Anaheim trade? one of the big reasons he was fired is he was losing the confidence of the fans/ownership.

anyhow... it all worked out for us. we went to the finals 3 times since that trade. but I just think its strange you say you dont believe a word out of a guys mouth and then in the same post take it for gospel how some reporter said occonnel only talked to 1 single team.

thats crazy

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I don't believe a word that has ever out of Burke's mouth.

It was well reported at the time that MOC didn't speak to anybody beyond Doug Wilson and that 28 other teams had no idea Thornton was on the block.

looking at anaheims rosters from 2005

its obvious they would protect
scott niedermayer
corey perry
ryan getzlef
prob goaltender jean sebastien gigure
teemu selanne
and then im guessing jeoffry lupul rounds it out

leaving us guys like...
francois beachemin {good but certainly not better than brad stuart}
ilya bryzgalov {was a backup goalie at the time}
Dustin Penner {was he better than marco sturm?}
Chris Kunitz {was he better than Marco Sturm?}
vitaly vishnevsky{was pretty highly reguarded… but I still take brad stuart}

sergei federov had the big name... but was 36 with a ridiculous contract and on his last legs...

so who do we rather get
brad stuard and marco sturm
or
vitaly vishnevsky and dustin penner?

is a first round pick enough to make the difference???

I believe burke thinks he made a great offer... but I still take the san jose one. and even if the anheim one is slightly better to some its still close enough you have to give occonnel the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

looking at anaheims rosters from 2005

its obvious they would protect
scott niedermayer
corey perry
ryan getzlef
prob goaltender jean sebastien gigure
teemu selanne
and then im guessing jeoffry lupul rounds it out

leaving us guys like...
francois beachemin {good but certainly not better than brad stuart}
ilya bryzgalov {was a backup goalie at the time}
Dustin Penner {was he better than marco sturm?}
Chris Kunitz {was he better than Marco Sturm?}
vitaly vishnevsky{was pretty highly reguarded… but I still take brad stuart}

sergei federov had the big name... but was 36 with a ridiculous contract and on his last legs...

so who do we rather get
brad stuard and marco sturm
or
vitaly vishnevsky and dustin penner?

is a first round pick enough to make the difference???

I believe burke thinks he made a great offer... but I still take the san jose one. and even if the anheim one is slightly better to some its still close enough you have to give occonnel the benefit of the doubt.

What about Andy MacDonald?

 

[sarge88]

That’s not a better offer than what we got. 6th best player on the Ducks would have been someone like Wayne Primeau. It was everyone goods first year in Anaheim Neidermayer and Selanne had just signed as free agents and guys like Getzlaf were rooks.

MOC is still a clown but Burke looks just as bad here.

This was discussed in another thread and the 6th best player on that Ducks team was light years better than Primeau.

Depending on what Burke thought at the time...it could have even been Perry or Getzlaf.

Selanne and Niedermayer were slam dunks.
Possibility Giguere would have been protected.

Others:

Lupul scored 28 that year
Andy McDonald had 85 points
and Perry and Getzlaf were young.


So they’d have walked away with one of..

Lupul, Perry, Getz, McDonald
And another roster player...

Rob Niedermayer
Beauchemin
Sykora
Kunitz

A prospect and a first.

 

[McGarnagle]

think about this... who on earth besides mike occonnell could possibly know this.

youd have to hook the entire world {or at least the other gms} to lie detectors to verify this. by the way, any of them who did come out and say they were in discussions for joe thornton would be guilty of tampering after he becomes property of another team. you arent allowed by the rules of the nhl to talk about players under contract to other teams.

I know there was a few reporters with 'questionable agendas' who like to slam boston when they can... who quoted 'unnamed gms' with the story being 'we werent given a chance to bid on thornton'

now we have a real gm of that time period who says he did bid

but as for the entire what was being offered... we know that there was issues between boston and burke before with the whole first round pick in the kessel/karberle swap thing... and then there was the messed up trade of wanvig for hoglund where the fax didnt work.

Occonnel still wants to keep his job in the NHL and having one of Canada's highest profile media figure heads criticizing him probably doesnt help the stink stigma go away. im sure Occonnel doesnt want to leave critism go unanswered and the easiest thing to do is say its not true

but really... either we can believe occonnel didnt shop thornton at all, or we can believe he turned down other offers... one of those 2 things HAS TO BE TRUE

I dont necessarily agree that burkes deal was better. Brad Stuart still had people believing he was a very legit top 2 dman when we dealt for him... thats the equivalent of a a player not in the top 6 of a team.

and then sturm was a 30 goal scorer with 2 way commitment. thats better than an unknown first round pick. and primeau was a roster player.

burke says he thought his offer was better? im not convinced it was better. our deal didnt work out well because stuart's wife wasnt happy in boston. he ended up leaving as an undervalued asset. sturm had his career come to an end when he ran into injuries.

but the trade for us was more than just what we were getting back for players. it was also about resetting the leadership in the locker room... and it was about freeing up some cap room to bring in a true impact player.

theres very little doubt in my mind we dont get chara if we still had thornton. how much did having sturm/stuart here help convince chara to sign on? if we had grabbed unknown picks/prospects with the thornton trade does chara still sign on?

I think that chara coming had a lot to do with Chiarelli being on board too. do we get Chiarelli if occonnel makes that Anaheim trade? one of the big reasons he was fired is he was losing the confidence of the fans/ownership.

anyhow... it all worked out for us. we went to the finals 3 times since that trade. but I just think its strange you say you dont believe a word out of a guys mouth and then in the same post take it for gospel how some reporter said occonnel only talked to 1 single team.

thats crazy

The Hoglund incident predated Burke by a lot. Pat Quinn was still GM at that point.

It's true that nobody except MOC himself and any other GMs he may have talked to know the truth, but the fact that nobody has come out and said they were in negotiations other than Burke just now and that unnamed GMs have anonymously gone on record stating they were upset because they weren't given the opportunity to bid for him makes me tend to think it was exclusively between O'Connell and Wilson. How many GMs from 2005 are even still active that have to worry about potentially tampering by talking about Thornton while he's still playing? Very few I reckon. Yet nobody has come out and given an interview about how they were offering XYZ for Thornton that day.

Between that and the fact that Burke is a pretty well-established blowhard makes me think he's lying.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

So Burke would have protected (likely)
Selanne
Giguere
Niedermayer
Perry
Getzlaf

Leaving (one of)
McDonald
Lupul
Vishnevsky
Sykora
Kunitz

Plus another roster player, plus a prospect, plus a first round pick.

Bruins got Sturm and Brad Stuart (Primeau was a cap dump).

You could argue MOC would have f***ed up the selection from the list. But he could have put together a much better package than what he received.

 

[sarge88]

looking at anaheims rosters from 2005

its obvious they would protect
scott niedermayer
corey perry
ryan getzlef
prob goaltender jean sebastien gigure
teemu selanne
and then im guessing jeoffry lupul rounds it out

leaving us guys like...
francois beachemin {good but certainly not better than brad stuart}
ilya bryzgalov {was a backup goalie at the time}
Dustin Penner {was he better than marco sturm?}
Chris Kunitz {was he better than Marco Sturm?}
vitaly vishnevsky{was pretty highly reguarded… but I still take brad stuart}

sergei federov had the big name... but was 36 with a ridiculous contract and on his last legs...

so who do we rather get
brad stuard and marco sturm
or
vitaly vishnevsky and dustin penner?

is a first round pick enough to make the difference???

I believe burke thinks he made a great offer... but I still take the san jose one. and even if the anheim one is slightly better to some its still close enough you have to give occonnel the benefit of the doubt.

You made one mistake...in your first paragraph you listed 6 protected players.

Selanne, Niedermayer, Getz, Perry, Giguere and Lupul.

I’m guessing Lupul is the one left unprotected which means that the trade could be:

Lupul
One of: McDonald, Kunitz, Vishnevsky, Beauchemin, R. Niedermayer

A prospect: Smid at the time as probably their best unless Penner counts and a first.

Personally, I think that blows away Staurt, Sturm and Primeau...especially if they turned the first into Giroux.

Of course this is all in hindsight, but as much as I liked Sturm and understand the allure of Stuart, it wasn’t enough.

 

[CDJ]

Stuart was supposed to be a young 1st pairing guy for years


Shit happens

 

[BigGoalBrad]

Stuart was supposed to be a young 1st pairing guy for years


Shit happens

Exactly. The arrogance of ‘you can’t have one of my 5 best players’ when the best player in the NHL at the time was who we were giving up should have been a non starter re Burke.

Dudes an idiot remember his flip flopping in the media over what he had offered for Kessel at the draft? How did that work out for him.

 

[dafoomie]

O'Connell boxed himself in because he only wanted roster players to get them into the playoffs and didn't want futures. And we know from Mike Keenan that San Jose wasn't the only team he talked to, but it wasn't widely circulated either.

Keep in mind that Thornton was taking up 17% of the cap, that's around 14 million in today's money. Anaheim didn't have a ton of space leading them to deal Fedorov before the Thornton deal, Sykora, Ozolinsh, and Keith Carney later, and Vishnevsky in the offseason. Burke's alleged offer is mainly futures, which O'Connell doesn't want, so the roster players going back have to be big salaries. You're looking at these guys and maybe Todd Marchant.

Selanne was on a 1 year 1 million prove it deal coming off a bad year. Kunitz had been waived, claimed and waived again. Penner was an undrafted free agent. Beauchemin hadn't broken into the league after 5 years in the AHL. Cross them all off your lists of 5. Getzlaf and Perry were untouchable in the Pronger deal, McDonald and Niedermayer were their top center and defenseman, Giguere their #1 goalie. That's your 5.

At best you're looking at Lupul, Smid, a late 1st in 06 plus a couple salaries from above. Basically the Pronger package minus the additional picks. O'Connell isn't interested in this, he won't be there for the pick or Smid.

 

[CDJ]

O'Connell boxed himself in because he only wanted roster players to get them into the playoffs and didn't want futures. And we know from Mike Keenan that San Jose wasn't the only team he talked to, but it wasn't widely circulated either.

Keep in mind that Thornton was taking up 17% of the cap, that's around 14 million in today's money. Anaheim didn't have a ton of space leading them to deal Fedorov before the Thornton deal, Sykora, Ozolinsh, and Keith Carney later, and Vishnevsky in the offseason. Burke's alleged offer is mainly futures, which O'Connell doesn't want, so the roster players going back have to be big salaries. You're looking at these guys and maybe Todd Marchant.

Selanne was on a 1 year 1 million prove it deal coming off a bad year. Kunitz had been waived, claimed and waived again. Penner was an undrafted free agent. Beauchemin hadn't broken into the league after 5 years in the AHL. Cross them all off your lists of 5. Getzlaf and Perry were untouchable in the Pronger deal, McDonald and Niedermayer were their top center and defenseman, Giguere their #1 goalie. That's your 5.

At best you're looking at Lupul, Smid, a late 1st in 06 plus a couple salaries from above. Basically the Pronger package minus the additional picks. O'Connell isn't interested in this, he won't be there for the pick or Smid.

really well thought out, I think that’s probably what we are talking about for a package from the ducks

 

[PB37]

I don't believe a word that has ever out of Burke's mouth.

It was well reported at the time that MOC didn't speak to anybody beyond Doug Wilson and that 28 other teams had no idea Thornton was on the block.

He talked to more teams than just the Sharks, but not much.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

What about Andy MacDonald?

to be honest I had him mixed up with Andrew McDonald the dman but now that I went and researched it he was in the middle of a breakout season in 2005. he was this undrafted guy who made something of himself but how high was his stock at the time of the trade?

props to the kid for have a decent run of it and making nearly 30 million in salary but other than his 2 year blip in Anaheim riding along on selanne's coat tail this was a 50 point meh type guy... a lot like tyler bozek if I am remembering correctly now. he wouldnt get my interest up much

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

You made one mistake...in your first paragraph you listed 6 protected players.

Selanne, Niedermayer, Getz, Perry, Giguere and Lupul.

I’m guessing Lupul is the one left unprotected which means that the trade could be:

Lupul
One of: McDonald, Kunitz, Vishnevsky, Beauchemin, R. Niedermayer

A prospect: Smid at the time as probably their best unless Penner counts and a first.

Personally, I think that blows away Staurt, Sturm and Primeau...especially if they turned the first into Giroux.

Of course this is all in hindsight, but as much as I liked Sturm and understand the allure of Stuart, it wasn’t enough.

lupal is an interesting guy... so much dissatisfaction followed him around. I think maybe he had off ice issues with some lifestyle choices

he very very quickly washed out of Edmonton next season but then again, a lot of guys wash out of Edmonton...

more damning was his short 2 year stint in philly

a guy this talented on 3 different teams in his first 5 years

then in his last 8 years in the league he plays in just 286 games or around 35 a season... all that talk about whether he was healthy or not healthy and Toronto just wanting him to go away...

bruin management has always value character and dependability. would our scouts have even wanted lupal? it seems that the bad reputation around him was already at work

I remember another brian burke explanation about that Anaheim team when he said he sent getzlef and perry to the minors the next season because the locker room just stunk in Anaheim and he didnt want his prized rookies around some of the teams other players. I remember burke being asked who hes talking about and he answered just see who I traded away

maybe this is another reason boston didnt want to deal a big trade with this team?

I used to take lupal in a lot of my espn fantasy drafts... he was always good value for a sneaky pickup in the last round as long as you had a spot on the IR you could hide a guy

 

[BruinsFTW]

lupal is an interesting guy... so much dissatisfaction followed him around. I think maybe he had off ice issues with some lifestyle choices

he very very quickly washed out of Edmonton next season but then again, a lot of guys wash out of Edmonton...

more damning was his short 2 year stint in philly

a guy this talented on 3 different teams in his first 5 years

then in his last 8 years in the league he plays in just 286 games or around 35 a season... all that talk about whether he was healthy or not healthy and Toronto just wanting him to go away...

bruin management has always value character and dependability. would our scouts have even wanted lupal? it seems that the bad reputation around him was already at work

I remember another brian burke explanation about that Anaheim team when he said he sent getzlef and perry to the minors the next season because the locker room just stunk in Anaheim and he didnt want his prized rookies around some of the teams other players. I remember burke being asked who hes talking about and he answered just see who I traded away

maybe this is another reason boston didnt want to deal a big trade with this team?

I used to take lupal in a lot of my espn fantasy drafts... he was always good value for a sneaky pickup in the last round as long as you had a spot on the IR you could hide a guy

Cocaine loomed large on quite a few teams back then....

 

[BruinDust]

Burke's offer is garbage.

"Hey MOC, for your best player and franchise player in the prime of his career, I offer you my SIXTH most valuable player and then we can go from there." It's embarrassing that he even admits it.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Doesn't this reflect badly on Burke?

Like, if he was so savvy, why is he only giving up his 6th best player for the NHL's Hart trophy winner? If he was really so hot on him, he should have protected no one on his roster.

This is like the Bruins calling up Tampa and saying we'll give you our 6th best player, a 1st and a roster player for Kucherov.

 

[member 96824]

Claude Giroux was available when the ducks were on the board.

Therefore, I will tell my children that it’s irrefutable that MOC cost us Claude Giroux

 

[Trap Jesus]

So Burke would have protected (likely)
Selanne
Giguere
Niedermayer
Perry
Getzlaf

Leaving (one of)
McDonald
Lupul
Vishnevsky
Sykora
Kunitz

Plus another roster player, plus a prospect, plus a first round pick.

Bruins got Sturm and Brad Stuart (Primeau was a cap dump).

You could argue MOC would have f***ed up the selection from the list. But he could have put together a much better package than what he received.

I think you can break it down even further than that. You have to remember that Thornton was traded at the end of November in 2005. Coming out of the lockout there was much more uncertainty than usual considering certain players didn't respond as well to the rule changes, some had been off for a year, etc.

Here's the production for the team at that point:

NHL.com Stats

I would hazard an educated guess that these were the players protected:

S. Niedermayer (32): Goes without saying he's protected. Good start, just signed with the Ducks, and won the Norris in 2003/04. Has the reputation as the 2nd or 3rd best D-man in the league at that point.

Perry (20): 2003 1st round pick, absolutely lit the world on fire in the lockout year in London, and played very well in both the AHL/NHL to that point.

Getzlaf (20): Copy and paste from Perry more or less.

Lupul (22): I don't see any way he isn't protected. 7th overall pick in 2002, really good rookie season in 2003/04, killed it in the AHL in the lockout year, and was 2nd in team scoring at that point.

Selanne (35): 24 points in 26 games albeit coming off an awful 32 points in 78 games in 2003/04. Have to figure that despite his age this start was enough to earn him protection. I do think this is the most questionable protection on this list though.


Best Options

J.S. Giguere (28): I think this is where it gets a bit interesting. The Ducks had split time between Giguere and Bryzgalov exactly evenly through til the end of November, and they had identical stats, both of them were playing very well rocking a .915 save %. Obviously Giguere is the easy guy to protect, he's still relatively young and has an excellent track record at that point already. That being said, if Burke looked over at Boston's roster he would have seen two goalies that he knew Boston saw a TON of potential in even for the immediate future in Raycroft, a 25 year old that won the Calder in 2003/04, and Toivonen, a 21 year old athletic freak that despite some iffy play in his early start, was a 1st round pick that looked dominant in the AHL. I bet he rolls the dice and leaves both his goalies exposed, expecting Boston to not go that route despite Raycroft/Toivonen's sub-par start.

Petr Sykora (29): Definitely had a great rep at this time, and at 29 years old there's a really good chance even though he had a slow start.

Andy McDonald (28): He had established himself as a 30-point NHL center pre-lockout but he wasn't the 85 point player he'd turn into that season. He was at 17 points in 26 games with Selanne. You have to remember there was so much uncertainty coming out of the lockout so I don't think he'd be seen as an ideal piece.

Vitaly Vishnevski (25): 5th overall pick in 1998, NHL regular for 4 seasons prior. Honestly, I think this is our guy.

Ruslan Salei (31): He played a bigger role than Vish, but is obviously older as well.

I think Dustin Penner would have been more of a prospect. He was literally just called up in the week before the Thornton trade.

I don't think either Fedorov or Beauchemin were in the picture because they were involved in a trade for each other on November 15. From what I remember the Thornton trade was a very quick ordeal so I really don't think either was involved. Beauchemin was such a huge unknown and Fedorov was 36 years old after all.

Kunitz was a waiver wire player at that point so I don't think he's involved.

All the other names seem either too old or not established enough.

Like even though only one of those players is guaranteed, I still take the Stuart/Sturm combo over Vishnevski/Sykora.

 

[bp13]

I don't believe a word that has ever out of Burke's mouth.

It was well reported at the time that MOC didn't speak to anybody beyond Doug Wilson and that 28 other teams had no idea Thornton was on the block.

The beauty of that story is that MOC's defense was that he "never talked to Anaheim". That's akin to saying "I know this didn't happen because I wasn't smart enough to call another team!"

Gotta love that. And on that note, thanks again MOC. Sweet trade.

 

[bp13]

Burke's offer is garbage.

"Hey MOC, for your best player and franchise player in the prime of his career, I offer you my SIXTH most valuable player and then we can go from there." It's embarrassing that he even admits it.

IF that was Burke's offer, it's terrible. However, since MOC ended up getting something even WORSE than that, wasn't he smart to only offer what he did? Apparently he was dealing with a complete rube.

And again, I say the only embarrassing admission in that exchange was MOC saying he never spoke to Anaheim. We knew it was the case that he didn't shop Joe as he should, but he'd be better off leaving that in the past. It makes him look like a fool.

 

[neelynugs]

trade obviously sucked, but stuart got us ference, and without him, who knows what
happens in 2011.