Brent Sopel hates the Hurricanes' home win celebrations

[BrendanGallagher11]

if you aren't a kid, then your avatar is pretty creepy

It's lights

So is yours tbh

lights
!

 

[Guided by Veseys]

I like everything about it: from the insipid creativity of their display to the mindless reactionary outrage of their detractors.
It won’t be duplicated and it will be a funny anecdote years from now.

 

[Drij]

On the bright side no one watches Carolina lol

 

[zerogoose]

 

[Man Bear Pig]

It's clever to dismiss criticism by comparing it to a dumb meme.

People can like bad things as much as people dislike good things. This is a dumb "ceremony". It's tacky and weird. Like it if you want, but dismissing criticism simply because you happen to like it is the dumbest thing.

Who said I liked it? I dont really care that much about it. It's one of those things where if you dont like it, and keep talking about it, it's just going to gain more attention. It's like feeding the trolls. Cherry going off about it just gives the Canes even more attention.

 

[aufheben]

Yo any Canes fans wanna sell me one of those dope t-shirts

 

[Roboturner913]

Would love to see a Venn Diagram overlap of the "Carolina's attendance sucks so relocate them" crowd and the "These celebrations are a disgrace to hockey" crowd.

I bet those two circles overlap so hard you couldn't even tell them apart from each other.

 

[ITM]

OK let's try going through this ridiculous word soup in order:

1) Where is the ridicule in the Canes celebration? The other team is off the i ice, not referenced in any way, and the connection is strictly between players and fans. Who are they ridiculing and how?

2) What slowly dying market do you refer to? Surely not the one where attendance, fan interaction and publicity are all increasing, in conjunction with a new owner and a young team on the rise.

3) How in the world does celebrating imply a win was effortless? The fact every player takes turns doing laps around the ice doesn't mean that the Stanley Cup was an easy win. Teams enjoy/celebrate winning all the time, whether it be in the dressing room, at a bar, etc. All the Canes do is find an extra way to involve fans, which is far from a bad thing.

1) You begin your reply by ridiculing my comment, then you ask where is the ridicule in the Canes' post-win celebration...I guess common sense as to what constitutes dismissive behaviour in hockey is a completely unknown concept to you? Running up the score and taunting a bench or celebrating in front of a bench is akin to the post-game celebration. Sure, a team can do it. That type of behavior has typically been held in contempt by hockey traditionalists. Perhaps now, it's also entirely acceptable?

2)Forgive me. There hasn't been constant speculation that Carolina amongst a couple of other teams in the league isn't an organization primed for relocation? That increase in attendance...The one that still can't average 14,000 fans per game? That one? As for "fan interaction"...I'm a Leafs fan, as to what "fan interaction" means concretely at a hockey game apart from attendance and applause, I'm at a loss. Fan interaction...Is that some new fandangled euphemism for audience dancing after a win along with your NHL hockey club that has to double as an improv troop in order to sustain your loyalty and interest? Mea culpa.

3) When a team celebrates The Cup, it's an entirely different celebration. For one, it's not contrived. It doesn't seek to equivocate winning the toughest trophy in team sports to win, with a talent show. It is an authentic, plainly understood, time-honored tradition that arose naturally and with respect for the other team's efforts. It's dignified. It's not frivolous. There's an obvious distinction between those two types of celebration.

As for justifying it because it involves the fans...It's a non-sequitur for me. The "entertainment" is the sport. If the realities are such that certain markets need a glowing puck, or wacky fan involved celebrations at the end of a game, or anthems performed in rap or interpretive dance, I view that as excessive and obscure to what I've come to understand the game of hockey to entail. And obviously, others who understand the game and it's traditions see the same cause for criticism.

Telegram from 1900s.. idiot fans throw hats on the ice to celebrate three goals by one player in a game STOP disrespectful to hockey as whole STOP commissioner considering shutting the league down due to embarrassment STOP hockey norms broken forever STOP Ohhh the Humanity.

CC from 2019:

When fans elect to throw hats on the ice to celebrate their team's goals, that's not the same as an organization needing to find ways to otherwise entertain it's nontraditional hockey market paying public by having it's team celebrate as knocked down bowling pins or lightning struck frost giants in order to incentivize the fans' return to the arena for the next home game.

Where is the ridicule and grandstanding? This occurs every home win after the visiting team has left the ice. No team should be feeling ridiculed because it is completely detached from who they are playing. Ridiculing would be Elias Lindholm's reaction after winning in Carolina. Then to go on and suggest that there is an inherent element of demonstrating that the win was effortless? I think you are looking for things that simply do not exist. If opposition teams are feeling that way - it's their problem. The Canes shouldn't have to worry about someone over-reacting to a team celebration.

To claim that is hasn't caught on in any other market except the one that's dying a slow death is a little bit confusing. What would be the motivation for a team that is already successful in terms of marketing? Why would they try a new strategy to gain new fans if they already have a strong market? The Carolina Hurricanes are averaging higher crowds since the 2013-14 season, so I dare say that it is helping engage their market. The labelling as 'juvenile' is even better, because it is meant to be silly and fun to engage the younger audience. As a take away you will see crowds continue to increase as the young audience becomes die hard fans.

Sport is entertainment. The whole purpose is to entertain fans. Athletes are entertainers. He played in the NHL. He is a former NHL player. He is a former entertainer. It's not rocket science.

The dismissive attitude should be used. To critique a team using a new way to attract attention and engage with their fans because "it's not hockey culture" is foolish. Culture is a fluid and dynamic concept that is constantly evolving and changing. To demand that it say static is futile and simply a waste of time.

Cringeworthy celebrations by one struggling franchise in the NHL isn't the metric by which traditional hockey fans are worried that the Stanley Cup is all of a sudden going to be named The Caitlyn Jenner Cup. This isn't a social issue within hockey. It's a minor irritant that deserves address given it's plainly outlier nature. It took up the amount of time it should have on Coach's Corner and it's garnered the amount of time due to it on social media.

Athletes are firstly, athletes. Sport entertains, but sport isn't theatre. Theatricality is contrived. Entertainment as is plainly understood is artificial. When sport becomes indivisible with entertainment, we typically call it professional wrestling because it's artificial in it's outcome. It's genuine in it's artificiality, but it doesn't exclude manipulating a contrived outcome the way an authentic sport like hockey requires.

The purpose of hockey is to win hockey games. The entertainment of hockey is found in the authentic competition. I think what Don Cherry and others have honed in on is the artificiality with which secondary entertainment measures are suddenly required in order to draw interest to the primary utility of the sport of hockey played at it's highest level.

You said: "No team should be feeling ridiculed because it is completely detached from who they are playing. Ridiculing would be Elias Lindholm's reaction after winning in Carolina."

Or perhaps Lindholm is simply reciprocating in kind? That's the plain inference from many who watched him mock Carolina's new "tradition". If the opposing team feels that it's ridicule then that's their problem, you say? You mean like running up a score and having a player celebrate in an excessive fashion? I'd say no...It's not the opposing team's problem. It's the club or player who has been informed about customary hockey norms who chooses to impose his/their singular abstract behavior on to the opposition with an unreasonable expectation that they must accommodate him.

"What would be the motivation for a team that is already successful in terms of marketing? Why would they try a new strategy to gain new fans if they already have a strong market? The Carolina Hurricanes are averaging higher crowds since the 2013-14 season, so I dare say that it is helping engage their market."

Carolina has a strong market? Short of 14,000 fans on average is a strong market? Engaging their market and demonstrating increased attendance is one thing. Still not being able to fill an arena is another. By all means, provide the top five and the bottom five attendance figures (percentage) to prove your point. Am I wrong in saying that Carolina is a bottom five club with respect to attendance ? Optimism and hope aside, am I missing something from the way in which you're using the word "strong"?

 

[Roboturner913]

somebody call up the whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam-bulance

 

[Jon Riley]

Very well written essay. 70% of it is unfortunately completely irrelevant to the point of discussion, while the rest is based on wrong assumptions.

Self-publishing maybe?

 

[The S5]

I am laughing at the "hockey traditionalists" who seem bothered by the Canes celebrations. To start, there are some very successful franchises who haven't won a Cup in a very long time. They don't have to worry about attendance or garnering new fans. That is a good problem to have. But, for non-traditional markets, it is a daily reality. Tom Dundon is doing something about it, as anyone who has invested a ton of money would with their investment. He has put money local rinks to highlight Canes colors and players. He is combining the two largest youth hockey programs under the Junior Hurricanes banner. He is running ticket special packages to get more cans in the seats. It all seems to be working. There is a buzz around the team. Attendance is up. What would Don Cherry recommend? Continue to flounder as a franchise so as to not disturb his sensibilities?
FWIW, Dundon is laughing his butt off right now. He knows the more old relics like Cherry spout off, the better for his franchise. Dundon looks like the maestro and Cherry, the fiddle.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Who is Brent Sopel? Why should I care what he thinks?

 

[Ahoy there]

The term "owning' has completely lost it's meaning. Short hand for "I like this opinion. It's better than the one I don't like." Merit or reasoning has nothing to do with Haydar's exchange with a couple of people on the subject.

Take the comparison between North American hockey culture/fans and European hockey culture/fans. He castigates North American hockey culture and celebrates an element of European hockey culture. And he does so without qualifying that different sporting cultures arise from...different cultures. Trying to emulate European football crowds has rarely been successful. And when it approaches that success, it's still missing the cultural glue that distinguishes a football crowd from Liverpool with a football crowd in DC.

For a European market, Haydar's right. It's exciting to see fan participation at the prompting of the club they support. It looks odd in North America. It looks odd in the way someone from Jamaica might look bowing in Japan. The Japanese are surgically precise about any number of customs, and without constant practice and immersion in them, foreigners have a mighty tough time selling Japanese authenticity to the Japanese.

What Don Cherry said is entirely in line with hockey culture as it's always been defined in Canada. There's an honour code. And it carries over game to game and sometimes from season to season. Ridicule and grandstanding, used to have consequences.

Haydar, or anyone else saying "Get over it." is missing the point. He can't on one hand talk about the appeal of post-game celebrations as being entertaining and community building and something in line with changing times and on the other ignore the fact that the gimmick isn't necessary in Toronto, Detroit, Chicago or Boston or Nashville. It's necessary - as he notes - in order to foster a sense of community. He's not paying attention to the finer point. It hasn't caught on in any other market except the one that's dying a slow death. Moreover, he actual acknowledges that it (the celebration post-victory) isn't traditional. That's relevant because his germane response to that is, "So what.".

Well the so what exception is the nature of the game. It's always been reciprocal. It's always been retributive. Which is precisely what Andre Deveaux implies in his criticism. In "entertaining" the Canes' fanbase, there is an inherent element of demonstrating that the win was effortless. That the opponent, similarly, merely entertainment. All of that isn't simply non-traditional against the backdrop of North American professional hockey, it's bordering on the absurd.

Consider that Darren Haydar refers to himself in the collective of NHLers as being entertainers. He of 23 games and 8 points. Read the tone of his reply to Deveaux. It's dismissive and arrogant. Deveaux played 31 games incidentally.

Don Cherry won the Adams and is as quintessential a hockey man as the game has ever had. The only thing Haydar is owning, is a seat beside Rob Schremp on this week's departing ship of irrelevant former NHLers who have too much confidence and about as much sense online as their careers on ice demonstrated.

Great response. Well thought out and your rationale was laid out logically. Was this strictly in response to the Haydar tweet and the op's declaration of ownership? Or, is this a response to the celebrations proper as well?

The purpose of hockey is to win hockey games. The entertainment of hockey is found in the authentic competition. I think what Don Cherry and others have honed in on is the artificiality with which secondary entertainment measures are suddenly required in order to draw interest to the primary utility of the sport of hockey played at it's highest level.

You said: "No team should be feeling ridiculed because it is completely detached from who they are playing. Ridiculing would be Elias Lindholm's reaction after winning in Carolina."

Or perhaps Lindholm is simply reciprocating in kind? That's the plain inference from many who watched him mock Carolina's new "tradition". If the opposing team feels that it's ridicule then that's their problem, you say? You mean like running up a score and having a player celebrate in an excessive fashion? I'd say no...It's not the opposing team's problem. It's the club or player who has been informed about customary hockey norms who chooses to impose his/their singular abstract behavior on to the opposition with an unreasonable expectation that they must accommodate him.

"What would be the motivation for a team that is already successful in terms of marketing? Why would they try a new strategy to gain new fans if they already have a strong market? The Carolina Hurricanes are averaging higher crowds since the 2013-14 season, so I dare say that it is helping engage their market."

Carolina has a strong market? Short of 14,000 fans on average is a strong market? Engaging their market and demonstrating increased attendance is one thing. Still not being able to fill an arena is another. By all means, provide the top five and the bottom five attendance figures (percentage) to prove your point. Am I wrong in saying that Carolina is a bottom five club with respect to attendance ? Optimism and hope aside, am I missing something from the way in which you're using the word "strong"?

Your argument, while sound, is fatally flawed. You have unwittingly contrived a straw man argument. For what it's worth, you are soundly defeating it!

You have moved the intentionality of this celebration into an arena (intended) outside its genesis. It has been stated from the beginning by Justin Williams, its originator, as a means of connecting with the fans. It is not orchestrated to garner interest from outlier, non-attending, non-hockey fans. Whether it has had the untended consequence holds no bearing on the original intent. The only logical foothold you have to "move the goalposts" (mixed metaphor also intended,) is to call Williams a liar at worst, or disingenuous at best.

So, while extremely eloquent and sound, the launching point of your argument renders all for not. I disagree with your analysis as a result.

Don Cherry won the Adams and is as quintessential a hockey man as the game has ever had. The only thing Haydar is owning, is a seat beside Rob Schremp on this week's departing ship of irrelevant former NHLers who have too much confidence and about as much sense online as their careers on ice demonstrated.

There are many components that have the making for a good argument, but the application falls short. You appeal to authority (aptly Cherry) of greater significance than the person you are arguing against (Haydar.) However, you the supporting element used to establish Cherry prominence is the Adams award... which has not a thing to do with the ability to distinguish what is and what is not acceptable in the realm of celebration (non sequitur.) The Adams is the Coach of the Year award. It is presented to the Coach having the greatest impact on his/her team's success on the ice. You were better off appealing to his role and longevity on HNIC.

No matter how many subtle ways you, or anyone, attempt to link the Canes' post-game celebration with the actual game, it will fall short and be guilty of not following the argument.

 

[nturn06]

In my oppinion it is really sad when a team plays so badly that they need to put up a circus show in the hopes they may please the fans.

The sadder part is that they fans seems to enjoy themselves: Hey, they will probably miss the playoffs for a 10th straight season, but they put up a nice show at the end... Amazing organisation.

 

[Negan4Coach]

2 years ago Carolina was 30th in the league with 11,700 average attendance. This year it is at 14K, 28th overall. So, in other words, more people are coming to see the games, and the attendance will continue to increase as the team gets better, and very soon will pass Ottowa, and they will undoubtedly be last in the league in attendance soon and I can't wait to hear all the rationalizations about that.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

In my oppinion it is really sad when a team plays so badly that they need to put up a circus show in the hopes they may please the fans.

The sadder part is that they fans seems to enjoy themselves: Hey, they will probably miss the playoffs for a 10th straight season, but they put up a nice show at the end... Amazing organisation.

Agree 100%. Fans should never enjoy themselves.

 

[nturn06]

Agree 100%. Fans should never enjoy themselves.

You are missquoting me intentionally... There is a huge difference between fans enjoying the team and the fans enjoying a loosing organisation...

Short question for you: do you know which is the longest postseason appearence drought in NHL?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You are missquoting me intentionally... There is a huge difference between fans enjoying the team and the fans enjoying a loosing organisation...

No, I didn't intentionally misquote you. It was a dumb post. No matter how good or bad a team is, Fans pretty much ALWAYS enjoy themselves when the team wins. I've never left the arena after a win without enjoying myself. So to say fans shouldn't enjoy themselves after a win because the team has been a losing team is pretty ridiculous.

I grew up a Chicago Cubs fan and attended many games. Cubs had the longest WS drought in MLB, but I thoroughly enjoyed going to games, especially when they won.

Short question for you: do you know which is the longest postseason appearence drought in NHL?

Of course I know the answer to that. What's funny, is posters complaining about fans not attending games because the Canes have been losing, and then you saying that fans shouldn't enjoy the organization because they are losing. Can't have it both ways. Or are you suggesting the correct approach is for Fans to attend games and not enjoy themselves, regardless of the outcome?

 

[Ahoy there]

In my oppinion it is really sad when a team plays so badly that they need to put up a circus show in the hopes they may please the fans.

The sadder part is that they fans seems to enjoy themselves: Hey, they will probably miss the playoffs for a 10th straight season, but they put up a nice show at the end... Amazing organisation.

It's up there with how sad it is not to read and its sadder cousin, erroneous data appealed to as factual.

 

[Ahoy there]

You are missquoting me intentionally... There is a huge difference between fans enjoying the team and the fans enjoying a loosing organisation...

Short question for you: do you know which is the longest postseason appearence drought in NHL?

Of course we do! There you go flexing that lack of reading again. Short question back at ya: Have you read our posts regarding our drought? Good lord man, no only does this display no reading and/or no comprehension, BUT (and here's the juicy slab of irony,) you appeal to the very argument we make as to our attendance woes! Talk about unintentionally supporting our argument, and doing it in a thread where we have repeatedly said these post game celebrations are not being done to fill the arena (though no one listens, because Fred in Victoria knows the Raleigh market better than a 7 year season ticket holder)

 

[Svechhammer]

He's not paying attention to the finer point. It hasn't caught on in any other market except the one that's dying a slow death.

All of that isn't simply non-traditional against the backdrop of North American professional hockey, it's bordering on the absurd.

Didn't take very hard to get to the real crux of the complaint.

the fact this "non-traditional" Canes exist is the problem. And we'll just dismiss them as a relevant entity by claiming they are "dying a slow death" to shut the fans up.

In reality, people are just pissed off this team is in Raleigh and not Hartford or Quebec City, and they're using the celebration as some convenient excuse to vocalize their inherent prejudices against the NHL existing in the south. This has always been the case, and always will be the case when it comes to this franchise.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

In my oppinion it is really sad when a team plays so badly that they need to put up a circus show in the hopes they may please the fans.

The sadder part is that they fans seems to enjoy themselves: Hey, they will probably miss the playoffs for a 10th straight season, but they put up a nice show at the end... Amazing organisation.

So, fans shouldn't enjoy a losing team. But also when fans stop showing up to games because the team has been losing AKA not making the playoffs for almost an impossibly long amount of time, they aren't a real hockey market. Which one is it? I don't think you even know what you're trying to argue.

 

[Svechhammer]

Of course I know the answer to that. What's funny, is posters complaining about fans not attending games because the Canes have been losing, and then you saying that fans shouldn't enjoy the organization because they are losing. Can't have it both ways. Or are you suggesting the correct approach is for Fans to attend games and not enjoy themselves, regardless of the outcome?

Of course they can have it both ways because they're talking about the Canes. Horribly mismanaged for a decade by ownership and management, and somehow that's justification on why Raleigh is a failed market. Don't make the playoffs for 10 years, and somehow that is justification that Raleigh is a failed market. Draft horribly and whiff on multiple first round picks, and that is justification Raleigh is a failed market. Attendance plummets after averaging more than 15k for the first 4 or 5 years of the drought while management continues to dig the hole deeper while jacking up the price of tickets, parking, and concessions, and that is justification Raleigh is a failed market. Franchise is purchased by a billionaire who makes it unequivocally clear the team isn't moving, and that is justification Raleigh is a failed market. New owner fires the head coach and GM, replaces GM with a committee and head coach with a first timer, and that is justification Raleigh is a failed market. Team decides to start having fun celebrations after games, and that is justification Raleigh is a failed market. Attendance goes back up as the team starts winning, and somehow this is justification Raleigh is a failed market.

It really doesn't matter with these people. They're going to use whatever reasoning they want to drag Raleigh to suit their means. They hate that the NHL exists here. They've hated it for the last 20 years and they'll continue to hate it. Because it doesn't make their sport the northern special anymore. They want it exclusive to them, and seeing it here challenges that to the core, so we get crap like this.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

Of course they can have it both ways because they're talking about the Canes. Horribly mismanaged for a decade by ownership and management, and somehow that's justification on why Raleigh is a failed market. Don't make the playoffs for 10 years, and somehow that is justification that Raleigh is a failed market. Draft horribly and whiff on multiple first round picks, and that is justification Raleigh is a failed market. Attendance plummets after averaging more than 15k for the first 4 or 5 years of the drought while management continues to dig the hole deeper while jacking up the price of tickets, parking, and concessions, and that is justification Raleigh is a failed market. Franchise is purchased by a billionaire who makes it unequivocally clear the team isn't moving, and that is justification Raleigh is a failed market. New owner fires the head coach and GM, replaces GM with a committee and head coach with a first timer, and that is justification Raleigh is a failed market. Team decides to start having fun celebrations after games, and that is justification Raleigh is a failed market. Attendance goes back up as the team starts winning, and somehow this is justification Raleigh is a failed market.

It really doesn't matter with these people. They're going to use whatever reasoning they want to drag Raleigh to suit their means. They hate that the NHL exists here. They've hated it for the last 20 years and they'll continue to hate it. Because it doesn't make their sport the northern special anymore. They want it exclusive to them, and seeing it here challenges that to the core, so we get crap like this.

Bang on.

 

[bluesfan94]

using a choreographed routine to get people watching hockey vs the actual game itself and the multitude of talent the NHL presents.

you don't see the difference?

How do you feel about fighting being used to sell the game?