Helene St. James Brendan Smith files for salary arbitration

[The Zetterberg Era]

Got it. I'd put most of those mistakes in communication on Smith. Smith was put in a tough spot and seemed overwhelmed. He'll learn and get better. I'd prefer Kindl and DD play in the top 4 together. And I think Babcock likes the Q and Smith pairing due to his reluctance to break 'em up. I'm hesitant to break up Kronner and Big E. But I hope Babcock experiments throughout the season with parings.

Kronwall-DD
Smith-Big E
Quincey-Kindl

You guys want to fall out of love with DeKeyser quickly, feed him first pairing minutes.

I do think Smith would benefit greatly from this.

I also would like to point out Kyle Quincey's biggest flaw in my opinion is his passing to his D-partner. He is absolutely dreadful at it. He rims the puck too hard, he puts it in Smith's feet all the time. When he wasn't going off the glass and out he was basically hot potatoing (not a word I know) Smith to death with it. Hard to look calm and confident when your D-partner basically live hand grenades you at least five times a game.

 

[MTU hockey]

I also would like to point out Kyle Quincey's biggest flaw in my opinion is his passing to his D-partner. He is absolutely dreadful at it. He rims the puck to hard, he puts it in Smith's feet all the time. When he wasn't going off the glass and out he was basically hot potatoing (not a word I know) Smith to death with it. Hard to look calm and confident when your D-partner basically live hand grenades you at least five times a game.

I was waiting for someone to point this out as it is often overlooked IMO. Quincey really doesn't make things easy for Smith.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I was waiting for someone to point this out as it is often overlooked IMO. Quincey really doesn't make things easy for Smith.

No he doesn't, but I will also say this. Smith better be working day and night on his backhand this off-season and hold the zone drills. Pretty exceptional at it really when moving forward, even did a couple really pretty between the legs backhanded touch passes for scoring plays late in the year.

But those are two big trouble areas. He doesn't get enough on his backhand on rim around clearance efforts and he isn't good very often on stationary hold ins, especially if it comes up the wall and he is caught on his backhand. As a lefty that say he likes to play on the right he really needs to work on those things at the NHL level or he will head back the left side of the rink soon.

I am still very high on Smith and think those are easily worked on. He also seemed to lose half a step for whatever reason this year, maybe he put on too much weight in the off-season. But hopefully he comes back to where he was in that department, the guys around here that watch the Griffins started pointing out we didn't think he was skating his best or like we had seen before the NHL season even started. So not necessarily a step up in competition problem he has a higher gear and more explosiveness, he needs to work on putting that back in with drills. All of these are quite fixable skills in my opinion.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Where in my post did I say I think he is worth "multimillions" Hint: I didn't.

The only thing I stated is I think Holland buries our prospects to try and manager/lower their cap-hits, and I think it rubs some guys the wrong way.

Also I think they have a right seeing as how there is a pretty considerable difference between an AHL salary and an NHl salary, and if I am one of those guys I am going to want to re-coop some of that money.

We saw it with Hudler, and I think we may see it again with some of these prospects if we don't watch it.

MOD

So our young guys are getting revenge on the organization. They have had all they can stand of Kenny Holland and they're fightin' mad now!
Back-room union in Grand Rapids, the kids are meeting and planning to topple the emperor and fight tooth and nail to reclaim the wages they should have earned had they been in the NHL before they were deemed ready... This is a rather far-fetched scenario you are painting. I think a deal with Smith gets worked out before arbitration as it usually does when Ken Holland is the GM; if Smith wanted to win back his lost earnings he would be holding out for other offers and his agent would be actively soliciting offers from other clubs. My opinion anyways; I think this whole theory is way over the top.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

So our young guys are getting revenge on the organization. They have had all they can stand of Kenny Holland and they're fightin' mad now!
Back-room union in Grand Rapids, the kids are meeting and planning to topple the emperor and fight tooth and nail to reclaim the wages they should have earned had they been in the NHL before they were deemed ready... This is a rather far-fetched scenario you are painting. I think a deal with Smith gets worked out before arbitration as it usually does when Ken Holland is the GM; if Smith wanted to win back his lost earnings he would be holding out for other offers and his agent would be actively soliciting offers from other clubs. My opinion anyways; I think this whole theory is way over the top.

Are they actively meeting about this? No probably not.

You won't get a much bigger Holland defender (please don't hurt me Mods, I'm describing myself), but I have said numerous times before that I think this trend is starting to develop.

Ericsson
Helm
Abdelkader
Howard
Filppula (to somewhere else)
Hudler ( to somewhere else, back, to somewhere else)
Quincey

The breaks aren't there. Quincey even said pretty immediately out in LA he was happy, really it gave him a chance to play a bunch and get paid accordingly because of it in both LA and Colorado.

Is it a conspiracy theory, a little bit. But we aren't getting breaks, Kronwall really being the last. You might call Kindl this who a lot of us thought would try to get out of dodge as soon as possible or really hold our feet to the fire. But it seems to be trending the other direction and you cannot help but feel a lot of these guys are looking around and thinking I lost a couple million in this system, sure it helped me, but you slow played me and a couple million exist if I hit the market, pay up or I will really consider doing just that.

Filppula actually got a pretty nice second contract and it didn't slow this train down. But notably both Filppula and Kronwall while they did spend a season in Grand Rapids were brought along pretty quickly, they also were because they put up huge numbers and played well, which isn't the case for some of these guys.

 

[Frk It]

MOD

So our young guys are getting revenge on the organization. They have had all they can stand of Kenny Holland and they're fightin' mad now!
Back-room union in Grand Rapids, the kids are meeting and planning to topple the emperor and fight tooth and nail to reclaim the wages they should have earned had they been in the NHL before they were deemed ready... This is a rather far-fetched scenario you are painting. I think a deal with Smith gets worked out before arbitration as it usually does when Ken Holland is the GM; if Smith wanted to win back his lost earnings he would be holding out for other offers and his agent would be actively soliciting offers from other clubs. My opinion anyways; I think this whole theory is way over the top.

Took that a lil far, huh?

 

[Petes2424]

Helene St. James ‏@HeleneStJames 1 min
#RedWings D Brendan Smith filed for salary arbitration. Per Ken Holland, Wings will ask for 2-year deal, if it does go to arbitration.

It's a good deal for both sides. No animosity, and they'll both accept the ruling. You have guys in his situation who are signing for deals all over the place. A month ago, I would've said he'll come in somewhere around $1.8 for two years. Then you had the Josi deal which screwed things up. The Voynov deal brought reality back in, then up, then down contracts... And today Alzner signs for $2.4.

So basically Im back to $1.8. They'd be all to advised to try and get him for about 4 years at $2.2 or $2.3. I think Smith is going to have a real good season coming up. The experience and some of the adversity he faced this year will do him wonders.

His tools are comparative to a five tool player in baseball. A major strength of his, is he's not afraid to make a mistake. That in itself costs young players a year or two. Look at Kindl or Ericsson. Much like Dekeyser, Smith plays without regard for mistake. He had some oops absolutely but he learned from a lot. That's what you look for. Playing big minutes in big moments. He's going to be very good.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I don't see it as a revenge thing. If it were revenge or something, the kids would be looking for offer sheets. It's just a situation where the young guys want a little more money for playing a year or so extra. I bet Nyquist wants a bit more too. Andersson, probably not so much.

 

[Petes2424]

I was waiting for someone to point this out as it is often overlooked IMO. Quincey really doesn't make things easy for Smith.

I thought when Quincey was re-acquired he would fit in really, really nice. It just hasnt happened. I did however think he played better and better as the year went along. That said, he turns brain farts into soap operas.

If there's one move I'd really like to see the Wings make, it's to somehow move Quincey for a pick and then grab a guy like Klesla for the 62 fourth liners on the market. Even a Eaves/Emmerton/Quincey trade for Michalek would work well. I'd like another vet D to blend in with the young guys. 3 and 3 is a good number if two of those guys Klesla/Ericsson are solid and play with a lot of poise.

We'll see.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I thought when Quincey was re-acquired he would fit in really, really nice. It just hasnt happened. I did however think he played better and better as the year went along. That said, he turns brain farts into soap operas.

If there's one move I'd really like to see the Wings make, it's to somehow move Quincey for a pick and then grab a guy like Klesla for the 62 fourth liners on the market. Even a Eaves/Emmerton/Quincey trade for Michalek would work well. I'd like another vet D to blend in with the young guys. 3 and 3 is a good number if two of those guys Klesla/Ericsson are solid and play with a lot of poise.

We'll see.

Agree with this, I actually saw the rational behind getting Quincey and agreed with the move. Could pretend I didn't and hide my head in the sand but I did. His play did improve over the second half, in terms of he stopped getting walked all the time and settled into a more defensive role.

What did not improve though is how he used his partner and his passing game. He became a chuck it off the glass player, when he didn't we suffered and in particular Smith suffered from his erratic passing or poor decision making with the puck. You cannot handcuff a rookie like that and he did it far too often for my liking. Heck you cannot handcuff a pros pro like that, I honestly think it is because nobody was going to chew him out. He basically was playing with a conglomeration of rookies or younger players.

He has to talk out there and he has to push feedback and some of the other things. Always a little tough to tell how much of that is going on, but in my opinion from watching not enough. Clearly he forgot about how he broke in with motor mouth Chelios. That is a part of it and in my opinion another reason beyond the passing that went so poorly. Somebody has to be the leader of the pair, I think a big reason Ericsson and Kronwall started to take off is they communicate, you can see it all the time in game. Kindl and Cola were talkers on the bench, Kindl seemed more assertive with DeKeyser.

Then flash to the bench Bill Peters is talking to Smith, Tom Renney is talking to Smith, Babcock is leaning in for a word. That is a part of Q's job and he failed miserably in my opinion. If they are to be back together I want to see a bunch more talking.

 

[Bench]

Absolutely a fair point, and none of us know what would happen if he indeed had more NHL games under his belt.

In my personal opinion, I think timing/momentum is pretty important in development. Maybe if Smith is allowed to ride out that .5 ppg wave he was on during his call-up in the 11-12 season, he comes into the 12-13 season with way more confidence and is a different player. To me the player I saw in 11-12 and the one in 12-13 looked like two different guys.

That's entirely possible. But I've also said a few times over the season it could shake out more like Niskanen... where he was rushed into the NHL, played top minutes alongside a legend, and looked like a legitimate 35 point defender only to never hit that level again.

I've seen the fast track and the slow track fail to develop players. I'm not sure there's a clear answer or any guarantees. Mainly I bring it up because I see a lot of comments about how X player needs Y time and he'll get Z better. Which I think is more of an ideal than a guarantee.

But seriously if Kindl, Smith, and Dekeyser don't get Z better we're in trouble.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

But seriously if Kindl, Smith, and Dekeyser don't get Z better we're in trouble.

Does Z better mean Zetterberg's development curve better, because yes please!

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Apparently if the Wings use the second window to buy out Samuelsson, they'll only be on the hook for 1 mil in cap hit for this season and next. Seems like a small price to pay.

 

[Bench]

Does Z better mean Zetterberg's development curve better, because yes please!

Wouldn't that be the jackpot? Dynasty time, folks.

Apparently if the Wings use the second window to buy out Samuelsson, they'll only be on the hook for 1 mil in cap hit for this season and next. Seems like a small price to pay.

It's a super small price when I'm not cutting the checks. It's crazy to think the average American would have to work 20 years to earn 1 million dollars but in sports we're like "Meh, write it off...twice."

On that note, it's why I can see somebody like Smith would want to fight for every half million dollars. Who knows how long an NHL career goes, you need to maximize those gains.

 

[Yzerberg]

I think he means in terms of style/communication.

Quincey did have a very good playoffs, I agree, but it seemed to me like they did not have established roles together and had a lot of communication mis-haps.

Disco. I think both are good players and Smith has a chance to be very good. Some guys just don't play well together.

 

[Vladdy84]

Apparently if the Wings use the second window to buy out Samuelsson, they'll only be on the hook for 1 mil in cap hit for this season and next. Seems like a small price to pay.

I'm all for doing that. But the consequences may be devastating. When that other rummy gets 3 years 3M per. I think I'd rather just live with 1 year of Sammy at 3M and either just LTIR him or see if he can contribute when injuries occur throughout the season.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

http://cdn.agilitycms.com/nhlpacom/PDF/NHL_NHLPA_2013_CBA.pdf

That's for team elected arbitration. If a player elects arbitration, and it goes to case before settling, the team gets the buyout period. I already linked to it in the Salary Cap thread. It's a common misconception.

 

[InjuredChoker]

That's for team elected arbitration. If a player elects arbitration, and it goes to case before settling, the team gets the buyout period. I already linked to it in the Salary Cap thread. It's a common misconception.

I didn't see mention of that in current CBA. Maybe it has changed?

edit. yup, there is no mention in previous CBA, it seems.

Guess you are right and that could be a backup plan for Sammy, if he's healthy and Kenny is going to buy him out.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Are they actively meeting about this? No probably not.

You won't get a much bigger Holland defender (please don't hurt me Mods, I'm describing myself), but I have said numerous times before that I think this trend is starting to develop.

Ericsson
Helm
Abdelkader
Howard
Filppula (to somewhere else)
Hudler ( to somewhere else, back, to somewhere else)
Quincey

The breaks aren't there. Quincey even said pretty immediately out in LA he was happy, really it gave him a chance to play a bunch and get paid accordingly because of it in both LA and Colorado.

Is it a conspiracy theory, a little bit. But we aren't getting breaks, Kronwall really being the last. You might call Kindl this who a lot of us thought would try to get out of dodge as soon as possible or really hold our feet to the fire. But it seems to be trending the other direction and you cannot help but feel a lot of these guys are looking around and thinking I lost a couple million in this system, sure it helped me, but you slow played me and a couple million exist if I hit the market, pay up or I will really consider doing just that.

Filppula actually got a pretty nice second contract and it didn't slow this train down. But notably both Filppula and Kronwall while they did spend a season in Grand Rapids were brought along pretty quickly, they also were because they put up huge numbers and played well, which isn't the case for some of these guys.

I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think it's an organizational thing or a Ken Holland thing as some here would have us believe. I think that players league wide are done taking less money and are going to get everything they can out of the owners - I imagine they are tired of having their salaries rolled back every few years or having their overall cut of the pie diminished repeatedly.
There's no doubt that Detroit is seeing this, that was never my argument or my problem with some posts in this thread; I simply cannot agree that the majority of blame for this "backlash" falls on Holland's shoulders. Hell, Jimmy D. probably did more to annoy and anger players with his comments during the lockout than Kenny and his over-ripe policy ever has.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Took that a lil far, huh?

Yea I did Frk, apologies.

 

[Brick Top]

I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think it's an organizational thing or a Ken Holland thing as some here would have us believe. I think that players league wide are done taking less money and are going to get everything they can out of the owners - I imagine they are tired of having their salaries rolled back every few years or having their overall cut of the pie diminished repeatedly.
There's no doubt that Detroit is seeing this, that was never my argument or my problem with some posts in this thread; I simply cannot agree that the majority of blame for this "backlash" falls on Holland's shoulders. Hell, Jimmy D. probably did more to annoy and anger players with his comments during the lockout than Kenny and his over-ripe policy ever has.

I doubt that players got too worked up over Jimmy D's cattle comment b/c they all know at some level, in a sport in which they are ultimately a commodity that can be bought and traded away, it's true. Inflammatory to be sure when dropped during a labor negotiation, but true nonetheless.

Jimmy D's comment isn't potentially costing Red Wings prospects $ though, so I would think that over-ripe philosophy has the potential to anger the young players more. A few posters have pointed out how our RFA's aren't inclined to settle for cap-friendly deals after having their NHL exposure limited to potentially keep their 2nd contract amounts down, and I don't blame the players one bit on that one.

Oh- this is OT but definitely true: Nut Upstrom is the best Swedish-inspired username. Ever. I wish the Wings had a 6'5" rock of a defenseman named Nut Upstrom to clear the crease.

 

[Henkka]

Pretty much, with the current CBA, players are now fighting against each others with salaries, not against the owners.

There's the total salary pot (whole league), and your salary is just a percentage of it, and that percentage changes all the time because of many other different factors.

If you got more (bigger percentage from total salaries) somebody else is going to get less. If you get bought out, the buyout money is a slight percentage away from other players.

If the players are cattle (like they are), now they really are like bulls fighting against each other to be the better bull or best bull in the business.

 

[PelagicJoe]

Good luck getting that big contract, Brendan.

No kidding. I won't miss him if he ends up going elsewhere.

 

[Johnny Law]

But seriously if Kindl, Smith, and Dekeyser don't get Z better we're in trouble.

Its the old optimist/pessimist deal, I always prefer to believe in the happy path even if I know its not true.....Abdelkader is good for 30 goals !!!!!

Kindl I think is a little better than most think, he's a good puck mover, Quincy is tough to play with and he hasn't had a partner in general that really works with his game.

Smith is not the first player to file for arbitration, Flip did it, obviously Hudler and I'm forgetting somebody.

He isn't being a db, it's just the way some players negotiate.

 

[RedWinger10]

Maybe they buy out Sammy now?

They can't buyout until next summer. The best option would be to trade him for some deep draft pick and say good riddance.