Brendan Shanahan vs Keith Tkachuk

[vadim sharifijanov]

It is easy to say for us with the luxury of hindsight but I don't think Tkachuk is a very good fit in Detroit.

true, hindsight is 20/20. but in that link i posted upthread, we have theo fleury calling out peak phoenix-era tkachuk for being a selfish player whose team couldn't win with him at the helm back in the '97-'98 season.

i think definitely by nagano at the very latest, we all knew how toxic tkachuk was.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

true, hindsight is 20/20. but in that link i posted upthread, we have theo fleury calling out peak phoenix-era tkachuk for being a selfish player whose team couldn't win with him at the helm back in the '97-'98 season.

??? Maybe I missed it but I don't see that quotw anywhere in that link. I see Todd Simpson calling Tkachuk a dirty player.

I'm sure its there somewhere... I can't imagine a Vancouver fan would misconstrue a quote to paint a player as a locker-room cancer...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Here are some Sports Illustrated articles to remind us of just how highly regarded Tkachuk was in the early 90s.

He spent part of last summer's vacation establishing himself as
the game's preeminent power forward, helping lead the U.S. to
the gold medal in the World Cup of Hockey in September. In that
tournament the 6'2", 210-pound left wing scored five goals in
seven games and struck a blow, literally, for countless NHL
players. In an early-round game against Canada, Tkachuk squared
off with Colorado Avalanche winger Claude Lemieux, one of the
league's most despised players. In the ensuing fracas, Tkachuk
broke Lemieux's nose. Says Phoenix winger Jim McKenzie, "There
were a lot of toothless smiles around the league."

http://www.si.com/vault/1997/03/03/...eith-tkachuk-does-his-hell-raising-on-the-ice

He was also the long-term captain of the Coyotes, and I don't recall anyone ever complaining about his leadership... until it was time to fight about $$$ again. Assistant captain of the 1996 World Cup Team.

From 1992-98 (Tkachuk’s first 7 years in the league)

He scored 236 goals in 458 regular season games for .52 goals per game.
He scored 17 playoff goals in 32 playoff games for .53 goals per game.

His (well deserved) reputation as a playoff failure is mostly from his St. Louis days.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

??? Maybe I missed it but I don't see that quotw anywhere in that link. I see Todd Simpson calling Tkachuk a dirty player.

I'm sure its there somewhere... I can't imagine a Vancouver fan would misconstrue a quote to paint a player as a locker-room cancer...

it's a three-part article. there are two pages beyond the first one.

Tkachuk has spoke out in recent days, calling his team's play '"stupid. We have a lot to thinking right now. We're struggling. We have to start playing as a team."

Are the Coyotes capable of bringing themselves together as a team? Theo Fleury doesn't think so.

"I don't know what the hell he is talking about," said Fleury. "That team is a bunch of individuals. They don't play like a team. "That team is a bunch of individuals. They yelled at each other on the ice," he said. "Roenick was yelling at the other guys in the second period. That's not a team. You don't yell at each other on a team. (Phoenix) is just a team of individuals and until they play like a team, they'll never go anywhere", stated the Calgary forward after their November contest.

the article is from the '97-'98 season, so that would presumably be november of 1997.




p.s. gretzky sucks

 

[Big Phil]

true, hindsight is 20/20. but in that link i posted upthread, we have theo fleury calling out peak phoenix-era tkachuk for being a selfish player whose team couldn't win with him at the helm back in the '97-'98 season.

i think definitely by nagano at the very latest, we all knew how toxic tkachuk was.

Fair enough, yeah you tend to forget the headcase Tkachuk was back then.

 

[MS]

If we were comparing Tkachuk to, say, Bill Guerin, the character issues/hothead behaviour don't outweigh the talent differential. Tkachuk was obviously an elite player.

But comparing him to Brendan Shanahan, it's just no contest. Shanahan was every bit as good as Tkachuk at the offensive/physical part of the game while being a better defensive and team player and having none of the distractions. And then killed it in the playoffs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If we were comparing Tkachuk to, say, Bill Guerin, the character issues/hothead behaviour don't outweigh the talent differential. Tkachuk was obviously an elite player.

But comparing him to Brendan Shanahan, it's just no contest. Shanahan was every bit as good as Tkachuk at the offensive/physical part of the game while being a better defensive and team player and having none of the distractions. And then killed it in the playoffs.

I think Tkachuk was even more physically feared than Shanahan - though it had a down side of some really undisciplined penalties. Agree that Shanny was better defensively and obviously more of a team player.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i don't know that tkachuk was any more physically feared than shanahan, though i think they're just about even in that regard. i do, however, think that tkachuk was more of a guy who could produce offense on his own.

i honestly don't know how shanahan put up 40 goals on the whalers that year; he just didn't seem like a guy who could dominate without a good center feeding him the puck. as far as power forwards go, tkachuk was the rarer offensive talent in that regard. he wasn't spring of '02 bertuzzi, but he was closer than maybe any winger since neely.

but as others have said upthread, shanahan so completely murders tkachuk in every intangible that i don't think it's close, either in hindsight or even at the time. it's not only that tkachuk is a minus character guy, it's also that shanahan is a big plus character, leadership, and locker room chemistry guy.

 

[nwaZ*]

Eh, sure Shanny was better in the playoffs but he has 0.73 ppg while Tkachuk has 0.63. A difference, sure, but it's not like Shanny was a total monster in comparison to Keith Tkachuk.

 

[MadLuke]

You could make a case for Tkachuk in the regular season, but his playoff stats are abysmal. He had a chance to make an impact on a really good St. Louis team, but instead he shat the bed. Add in his holdouts early in his career and it's easily Shanahan.

Both scored little in playoff it seam, 28 goal in 89 for Tkachuk, 60 in 184 for Shanahan, with multiple playoff with just 1 goal with the Wings, but those Shanahan team had a lot of dept.

0.31 vs 0.326 Goal by games in playoff.

 

[seventieslord]

Both scored little in playoff it seam, 28 goal in 89 for Tkachuk, 60 in 184 for Shanahan, with multiple playoff with just 1 goal with the Wings, but those Shanahan team had a lot of dept.

0.31 vs 0.326 Goal by games in playoff.

but one of them is based on a much larger sample including many more games s a teenager and past age 30 (105 to 27)

 

[Blargh]

Was Shanahan ever "the man" on his team? Perhaps his season on the Whalers. But he also demanded to be traded and could be considered a problem player for the Whalers. I remember it being public knowledge that he wanted out. One year as the face of the franchise and it was a very unhappy face.
Also, check out the Mike Keenan quote that Shanahan was "half the player he thought he was" That's not exactly a glowing review of leadership or a team player. That's also with the Blues, not the Whlaers. So that's two teams in a row that clashed with Shanahan
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/10/sports/whalers-finally-trade-shanahan-for-coffey.html
The Whalers and Keenan's assesment comes during Shanahan prime. Yes, I know someone will point out Keenan's history with player X, y, z, aa, ab, etc.... But it is still should be considered
Perhaps Shanahan is still a better team player than Tkachuk, but he ain't spotless. And if we stick to the prime years, this is the Shanahan we have to use. Also I don't think we can use many of Shanny's years in Detroit as prime years. I am sure he was very happy in Detroit with the pressure on the big boys as he won Cups with one the NHL's best run and classiest organizations.

Why do people keep taking about Tkachuk as a Blue? The question was about the player in their prime. Does anyone consider Tkachuk's prime years being 2000 to 2005? His Prime years was as a Jet/Coyote.

Also, consider once Selanne was traded from the Jets and the team was basically done in Winnipeg. Tkachuk took over. After Feb 6, 1996, Tkachuk scored 41 points in 29 games, 1.41ppg, he had 57 in 47, 1.21ppg, before the Selanne trade.
So before someone says Hartford was a dead team with an uncertain future to excuse Shanahan, consider how Tkachuk responded in a similar situation.

I am on fence between the two players but just want to point out some of Shanahan flaws while everyone else is pointing out Tkachuk's.

 

[Copmuter*]

Obviously St. Louis was content with Tkachuk's character...

After trading him to Atlanta they re-signed him that summer

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Was Shanahan ever "the man" on his team? Perhaps his season on the Whalers. But he also demanded to be traded and could be considered a problem player for the Whalers. I remember it being public knowledge that he wanted out. One year as the face of the franchise and it was a very unhappy face.
Also, check out the Mike Keenan quote that Shanahan was "half the player he thought he was" That's not exactly a glowing review of leadership or a team player. That's also with the Blues, not the Whlaers. So that's two teams in a row that clashed with Shanahan
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/10/sports/whalers-finally-trade-shanahan-for-coffey.html
The Whalers and Keenan's assesment comes during Shanahan prime. Yes, I know someone will point out Keenan's history with player X, y, z, aa, ab, etc.... But it is still should be considered
Perhaps Shanahan is still a better team player than Tkachuk, but he ain't spotless. And if we stick to the prime years, this is the Shanahan we have to use. Also I don't think we can use many of Shanny's years in Detroit as prime years. I am sure he was very happy in Detroit with the pressure on the big boys as he won Cups with one the NHL's best run and classiest organizations.

Why do people keep taking about Tkachuk as a Blue? The question was about the player in their prime. Does anyone consider Tkachuk's prime years being 2000 to 2005? His Prime years was as a Jet/Coyote.

Also, consider once Selanne was traded from the Jets and the team was basically done in Winnipeg. Tkachuk took over. After Feb 6, 1996, Tkachuk scored 41 points in 29 games, 1.41ppg, he had 57 in 47, 1.21ppg, before the Selanne trade.
So before someone says Hartford was a dead team with an uncertain future to excuse Shanahan, consider how Tkachuk responded in a similar situation.

I am on fence between the two players but just want to point out some of Shanahan flaws while everyone else is pointing out Tkachuk's.

Interesting post. Made me think of Shanny chasing the $$$$ from NJ to St Louis too, kind of thing Tkachuk would have been criticized

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Interesting post. Made me think of Shanny chasing the $$$$ from NJ to St Louis too, kind of thing Tkachuk would have been criticized

except muller, verbeek, burke, that entire team other than maclean left because the devils wouldn't pay them.

but damn if lou didn't win all those battles...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

but on the other hand, as i'm calling shanny a good team guy, i can't pretend he didn't steal his own center's wife.

 

[Copmuter*]

but on the other hand, as i'm calling shanny a good team guy, i can't pretend he didn't steal his own center's wife.

Wasn't that Jeff Brown?

 

[seventieslord]

Wasn't that Jeff Brown?

I don't think so. I've heard a hundred times that it was Shanahan.

I dunno, it kinda adds to his legend... haha

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

I don't think so. I've heard a hundred times that it was Shanahan.

I dunno, it kinda adds to his legend... haha

You're correct. Jeff Brown is rumoured (MOD) to have done something else.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Interesting post. Made me think of Shanny chasing the $$$$ from NJ to St Louis too, kind of thing Tkachuk would have been criticized

No, Tkachuk is criticized for holding out on existing contracts before the ink even had time to dry. And for using $100 bills to light cigars in a crowded restaurant.

Big difference between that and signing a free agent contract.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

jeff brown (and the former mrs. mclean) is just rumours and conjecture, although i think every single person in vancouver believe it happened.

brendan shanahan and the former mrs. janney (the current mrs. shanahan), we know 100% happened. i mean, they are married now with three kids.

I don't think so. I've heard a hundred times that it was Shanahan.

I dunno, it kinda adds to his legend... haha

and janney was the one who was traded to try to salvage the room. ouch.

 

[Thenameless]

In terms of the 'glamour' side of being a star NHL power forward - goals, hits, fights - they were pretty close.

But Shanahan was a better two-way player, a consummate pro, and a playoff warrior. Tkachuk was a selfish hothead with ongoing fitness problems who wilted in the playoffs.

Nobody would take Tkachuk over Shanahan if they were building a team, ever.

Yup, it's the less obvious things where Shanahan walks away with this pretty easily.

 

[tony d]

Shanahan pretty easily.

 

[Dr Robot]

Fitness aside, it always seemed like towards the end of his career in STL that big walt was a really well liked veteran that I have never heard any issues about. On previous teams it might have been different but in STL he was talked about with quite a bit of respect from every thing I had heard. Shanny gets the great leader rep but at the same time the misses Janney issue isn't something that could just be glossed over.

If we are talking numbers you also have to take teams into context. Shanny did play longer so you would have to think his declining years would weigh down his production but his waning years involved playing on the late 90's early 2000s Red Wings. Tkachuk played 6 years on the terrible post lockout STL blues.

Playoff wise Shanny had 134 points in 184 games = .72 ppg. 56 points in 89 games for Tkachuk = .62 ppg.

They are a lot closer than some are making them out to be.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Shanahan, not close.

Tkachuk was insanely overhyped due to being the great "American Hope" in the years directly after Roenick stopped being such an exciting and dominant player.

I remember watching Tkachuk in 96-97 when he led the league in goals. I wasn't particularly impressed to be honest. I mean, he was a good player. A really good player. But that seemed like a bit of a statistical anomaly. I don't think he was the best goal scorer that year (if you know what I mean).

That said, Tkachuk was a really good player. But to compare him to Shanahan is insulting to Shanahan (IMO).