Player Discussion: Brayden Point - Part 2

[DFC]

It was definitely Kucherov who got the bigger boost when he got put with Point, rather than the other way around. Point was hands down our best forward to start the season, without Kucherov. Kuch didn't find his game until he got put with Point.

Even though I'm arguing Point's case (only because I think there are people turning on him, and that's absurd in this situation), I do think the numbers are a bit misleading and Point, particularly on the PP, benefited more from Kuch than the other way around. But the idea that Point is a product of Kuch is crazy to me, and they clearly made EACH OTHER better. It's debatable which guy benefited more. I would say Point, but there's a case to be made the other way.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Okay. So, still, find me a guy who scored 90 points or more, maybe even 80, who signed for 7% of the cap. What's the point of looking at all the side factors if that's the one that's unprecedented?

14 guys scored 90+ points last season. In the last 10 seasons 90 points was hit only 48 times by 29 different players. So less than 5 times a season and the 14 guys last year make up almost half of the 29 that have done it. It was a different season than normal so hard to judge based off of that. Most of the guys that hit that number were already signed or have a long record of big numbers.

Another thing is that Point isn't the franchise player. Most if not all those guys that hit 90 are the face of franchise and Point isn't ours. So some of that money those guys are getting is because they are that player for their team and there isn't another guy who produces close to them. With us we have others who are the face or produce more. It might not be right and sucks for Point but that's just the way it is.

 

[ccman68]

It doesn’t really matter how good Point actually is. The thing that matters is that Brisebois can use Point shooting 21.5 and playing with Kucherov in negotiations to bring the cap hit way down. It’s very easy for him to say that Point hasn’t proven shit and needs to keep producing at this level for a few more years to get his big payday.

 

[DFC]

14 guys scored 90+ points last season. In the last 10 seasons 90 points was hit only 48 times by 29 different players. So less than 5 times a season and the 14 guys last year make up almost half of the 29 that have done it. It was a different season than normal so hard to judge based off of that. Most of the guys that hit that number were already signed or have a long record of big numbers.

And every single one of those guys is making more than 5.7. And would be making a loooot more than 5.7 if their contract was up this year. And most of them got their More Than 5.7 before they ever scored 90.

Another thing is that Point isn't the franchise player. Most if not all those guys that hit 90 are the face of franchise and Point isn't ours. So some of that money those guys are getting is because they are that player for their team and there isn't another guy who produces close to them. With us we have others who are the face or produce more. It might not be right and sucks for Point but that's just the way it is.

Sure. But faces of the franchise get massive deals. Nobody's saying that's what Point will get. I'm just saying 5.7 is laughable, and nobody in his position has ever signed for less than 7% of the cap.

 

[TheDaysOf 04]

It is diminishing what he did though. When has a player said, "I scored 90 points, but scoring is up, so pay me like a 60 point guy." Not in the history of never.

You're not wrong. I'm sure that's the position Point and his agent are taking and why the two sides haven't agreed on a contract yet. Also, I know there's been a lot of talk about his offensive stats but let's not forget Point is also an incredible two-way player. So there's plenty of things that would justify Point getting paid. But if you're JBB you want to be sure you get the value right where it should be. Every million matters. Being able to do that helps continually keep this incredible group of players together on the same team.

Let's forget Dubas, because this didn't start with him. It started with Draisaitl and Eichel, both of whom signed for bigger money than Point after seasons that weren't as good. We can't just pretend it's not happening, not if we want anybody to play for us.

You can consider the moves bad if you want. Unfortunately, they're becoming the norm. We're lucky that we don't have to follow the trend completely, but it's silly to think we're going to be the one team that ignores it altogether and just forces our RFAs to play for a fraction of what their peers are making.

It's hard to compare every situation to ours but it's no secret just in general Edmonton and Buffalo are and have been 2 of the worst run teams for a while. Unlike them, I trust we know what we're doing and the results of previous contracts we done with our guys should give us confidence in that. There's a middle ground we can reach with Point or any player for that matter where we neither over pay and they don't feel ripped off. Isn't that how it should be?

 

[Flat Ronnie]

@DFC


Why Lightning aren't swayed by market with bridge offer for...

“I think what happens throughout the NHL is relevant, whats happens in your organization is more relevant,” BriseBois said Friday, before Marner’s signing was announced. “This has always been true. Teams are at different places in their success cycle, they’re looking for different things. Some teams put more value on having the knowledge they have a player signed to a long-term deal. Other teams don’t value that as much.”

 

[DFC]

You're not wrong. I'm sure that's the position Point and his agent are taking and why the two sides haven't agreed on a contract yet. Also, I know there's been a lot of talk about his offensive stats but let's not forget Point is also an incredible two-way player. So there's plenty of things that would justify Point getting paid. But if you're JBB you want to be sure you get the value right where it should be. Every million matters. Being able to do that helps continually keep this incredible group of players together on the same team.

The only thing I'd argue with is that the reason for the hold-up isn't because of Point and his agent; it's just that the offer on the table is absurdly low. Which is why I'm now very optimistic about all of this. I don't believe JBB had any intention of Point signing this. I don't know if they even planned to start talking until other RFAs signed. It seems like they might have planned to wait it out all along.

The low offer is a good sign though. It means there's plenty of space to work with, and a team-friendly deal is still pretty likely to happen.

It's hard to compare every situation to ours but it's no secret just in general Edmonton and Buffalo are and have been 2 of the worst run teams for a while. Unlike them, I trust we know what we're doing and the results of previous contracts we done with our guys should give us confidence in that. There's a middle ground we can reach with Point or any player for that matter where we neither over pay and they don't feel ripped off. Isn't that how it should be?

It's going to be a balance. Our internal structure will balance with league trends. Our players won't make as much as they would elsewhere, but there are perks to playing in TB that players seem to value. Oh, and we give out NTCs like candy. Which helps get those AAVs down. (Not applicable in this situation, but still. :p )

We have no idea what Point is asking. I doubt he's even made an ask yet. It seems both sides are just waiting a little longer to see what happens around the league. Point knows he can't get more than 8.4, so it's not like we're gonna hand him a crippling contract, regardless.

 

[DFC]

@DFC


Why Lightning aren't swayed by market with bridge offer for...

​

Um, yes? And that's why Point's not gonna get the $10.9m he could have gotten elsewhere. But it also doesn't make 5.7 realistic.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

Um, yes? And that's why Point's not gonna get the $10.9m he could have gotten elsewhere. But it also doesn't make 5.7 realistic.

They want to sign him to a bridge. If they give him a bridge around 8M what the hell are they gonna have to pay him in 3x years?!

That's the point. They're not gonna blow their load on a bridge deal.

 

[DFC]

They want to sign him to a bridge. If they give him a bridge around 8M what the hell are they gonna have to pay him in 3x years?!

That's the point. They're not gonna blow their load on a bridge deal.

They'll have to pay him a lot in three years regardless what the bridge is. The cap will be a lot higher with expansion and the TV deal.

Why would he sign for 5.7 when no one in his position has ever done it?

 

[Felonious Python]

They'll have to pay him a lot in three years regardless what the bridge is. The cap will be a lot higher with expansion and the TV deal.

Why would he sign for 5.7 when no one in his position has ever done it?

The TV/streaming deal(s) have yet to be signed. It's all speculation at this point. We also know that Sportsnet overpaid, regardless of reasons, so that will probably be a negotiating point which will lower the price tag.

ESPN has laid-off staff as well over the past few years to adapt to the changing market.

 

[DFC]

The TV/streaming deal(s) have yet to be signed. It's all speculation at this point. We also know that Sportsnet overpaid, regardless of reasons, so that will probably be a negotiating point which will lower the price tag.

Even if it doesn't, the cap goes up, and every class of RFAs gets paid more than the previous class.

 

[DaBolts]

We can't give him a NTC on a RFA deal. It's not a factor.

My bad, thought we could in year three of a bridge deal. Regardless, $7 million x 3 tops. I love this kid but he has to work with us until we clear off the dead money and older players which will take at least 2 more years.

 

[TeslaCoilFan]

Due to Marner's signing, my new prediction is that Point will sign for 3 years for $7 mil AAV.

Why? I have no fricking idea.

Just noting for posterity.

 

[Todd1a]

And every single one of those guys is making more than 5.7. And would be making a loooot more than 5.7 if their contract was up this year. And most of them got their More Than 5.7 before they ever scored 90.



Sure. But faces of the franchise get massive deals. Nobody's saying that's what Point will get. I'm just saying 5.7 is laughable, and nobody in his position has ever signed for less than 7% of the cap.

5.7 avv for point would not have be laughable last summer

 

[Zwui21]

Even if it doesn't, the cap goes up, and every class of RFAs gets paid more than the previous class.

I wouldn't be too sure about this:

 

[DFC]

I wouldn't be too sure about this:

If that happens...

The Leafs are so ****ed.

 

[Todd1a]

If that happens...

The Leafs are so ****ed.

Ya and so Are we unless we truly sign point for 5.7 avv lol

 

[Todd1a]

I wouldn't be too sure about this:

Wow we need the cap to go up 2 million next year and we have to trade killorn! Now Seattle is going to have like 10 first round picks for taking contracts that teams don’t want lol

 

[DFC]

Ya and so Are we unless we truly sign point for 5.7 avv lol

Not really. We'll take a step back, but not lose our entire defense.

In terms of pure talent, we have a full step on the rest of the league. At some point that might draw back. Doesn't mean we're screwed. Just means we're not constantly getting better, the way we've gotten used to.

 

[These Are The Days]

If that happens...

The Leafs are so ****ed.

That's gonna be so funny if it does. We were f***ed when Vinny, Marty, Richy and Boyle ate up so much of our cap but this is gonna be just as bad. The Leafs are literally rocking $13 million in LTIR and won't have any sort of space to do anything down the road.

And people got on Peter Chiarelli for his cap management. Dubas is like "Hold my Horton's"

 

[DFC]

That's gonna be so funny if it does. We were ****ed when Vinny, Marty, Richy and Boyle ate up so much of our cap but this is gonna be just as bad. The Leafs are literally rocking $13 million in LTIR and won't have any sort of space to do anything down the road.

And people got on Peter Chiarelli for his cap management. Dubas is like "Hold my Horton's"

I'm wondering if he can trade for LTIR contracts every year though. And at what point do those actually get positive value again, if teams are using them to circumvent the cap? Maybe as early as next year, when Dubas has to give up a 1st and a 3rd for Rick Dipietro or something. Because otherwise he can't ice a team.

 

[ccman68]

Point isn’t much better than Mcavoy. Gonna be around 6 mil.

 

[Zwui21]

 

[Todd1a]

Point isn’t much better than Mcavoy. Gonna be around 6 mil.

Man the whole hockey WOrld thinks that point should get 9 avv for 3 years they think 5.7 avv was such a low ball offer lol