Brandon Sutter -- Save Us GranBranSen || Part 4

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4Twenty

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To me, he just looked really slow in that series (despite having a decent regular season), and this ,on a veteran team that had too many slow players.....I've always felt that the Sutter trade, and the Dorsett signing were a response to the humiliating defeat they took from the Flames...

Bonino has done well for himself, on teams that have had tremendous depth..I have no horse in this race,I was just making a comment on Bonino's playoff performance, and why the trade was made.
Dorsett was extended before that playoff series, which may be part of the reason he couldn't ratchet up the intensity when everyone else did. Sbisa and Dorsett got extensions before the playoffs started, which was silly and I said as much at the time.

You definitely have a horse in the race, that's why you continue to come to bat here with your usual one liners. You called him a "complete no show"....

If we're actually elaborating on that playoffs, what I recall is Willie didn't care for matchups and Bonino was struggling against the Monahan/Gaudreau group and that was evident to everybody but Willie. Horvat and the Sedin line were handling their minutes against that line well, but Willie allowed Hartley to dictate that matchup. I won't excuse Bonino for being outmatched there, he was, and didn't have his best series, but in my mind, and I'm sure if you went back and read this forum and other such sites online at the time, I would say I'm remembering better than you and 1-2-3-4 Willie was the major reason for that series loss And that's on top of being unable to adapt and get away from the Bieksa-Sbisa tandem as well.
 

Askel

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So you decided to look at his linemates for one season. The difference for me and you is I look at the whole career to determine who is better. You are looking at one season. That is cherry picking and you are exaggerating as well. You know Bonino it not always outplaying Sutter

Bonino most frequent linemates

2012 Blake Cogliano
2013 Ryan Selannae
2014 Belesky Palmieri
2015 Burrows Higgins
2016 Kessel Hagelin
2017 Kessel Hagelin
2018 Hartnell Jarnkrok
2019 Scissons Watson

I think most of us can agree 2018 and 2012 Bonino had the worst linemates. It So Happens Sutter outscored him both season. Is that a coincidence?

Like I said Sutter can produce better with lower end players.

Look at the season before Bonino plays with Kessel and only produce 3 more points than Sutter.

Yes Bonino can play with talent better it look at the ppg through 82 games. A difference is a only 4 points and that's it.

Sutter was in to fill that second line center until Horvat was ready to Play on the top 6. Once Horvat Was ready to play in the top 6, Sutter will move down and take the hard matchups.

I was wrong about the Malkin. I didn't know. The site I believe just listed the linemate he most frequently played with. But one of the article did claim that line was doing well. But its a still a small stretch. When Sutter did have regular top 6 Forward he was able produce at a 47 point pace when he is in Carolina

You didnt respond about about Sutter being in the top 7 or 8 in forward in scoring and that's why he is on the pp.. I am guessing you are accepting that argument.

Also you didn't respond when I said Bonino can produce with talented player. I am guess you are accepting that argument as well.

Anyway "you wrote as always Bonino is outproducing Sutter" you know that is not true. This example of the 5 letter word that starts with the T. Are you doing that now? If you are, we need to stop.
I´ve made my point. I think Bonino is better, not this season but overall. You apparently don´t.
 

tyhee

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A couple of things:

1. There was a lot of discussion recently on a thread with a poll about Benning's standing among general managers about whether Sutter was brought in to shelter Horvat.

Pretty clearly he wasn't brought in for that purpose. He was brought in because he was "foundational." To quote Benning, "“Acquiring Brandon Sutter, to me he’s a foundation piece for our group going forward ..."
Benning calls Sutter a ‘foundation piece’ for Canucks

There were comments that he didn't actually shelter Bo because Bo got more defensive zone starts. Benning made a comment in the summer of 2015 that indicated that wasn't the way they intended to shelter Bo, though. They wanted to avoid him having to play 2nd line center before he was ready. Again quoting Benning (from the same article) "Bo Horvat, the last half the year, played really well for us ...We don’t want to put pressure on him to be somewhere in the lineup that he can’t handle it going forward. We want to make sure that he keeps developing as a player."

So to the extent the Canucks intended to use Sutter to shelter Horvat, it wasn't related to defensive play. It was playing up in the lineup.

What actually happened, of course, is that Sutter got injured, only played 20 games the following season so wasn't there to "shelter" anyone. Horvat ended up playing 2nd line center even though the Canucks didn't want to make him play that far up in the lineup at that stage of his career.

2. We've seen a lot of comments about Sutter's contract being bad when made but being ok now because of increases in the salary cap.

There is still hope that his play this season is linked to being hurt, but if Sutter's play this season is at all indicative of what it is going to be for the rest of his contract, his contract is terrible.
 
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Canucks1096

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So Bonino cant produce without talent but does produce with talent while Sutter cant produce with or without talent and that makes Sutter the better player somehow?

First three years after the trade from 2015 to 2018 season. Why did Sutter have a higher ppg than Bonino?

Why does Bonino only average a few more points per 82 game schedule for their career?

When Bonino was playing with 3rd line players last year. Why did Sutter outscored him while playing 10 less games?

Sutter has played with a lot worst linemates almost his whole career than Bonino. Why is Bonino ppg in his career is not that much higher.

40 points in 72 white with 2 legit top 6 wingers in Whitney and Cole is not producing?

Usually I tend value players less if they need a certain type of player to produce.

One season in Pits Sutter regular linemates where Adams and Glass. Imaging if Bonino had to play with those two. The puck probably won't even leave The Dzone.
 

Canucks1096

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Bonino is being discussed because one poster cannot accept information and is repeating himself.

-----

As an aside: The Patcast mentions that Sutter has 1 assist on the year, and it was in the first game. Everyone is noticing that Sutter is having a terrible season.

It's about three actually and a few neutral ones. But who is counting
 

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There are a few goalies who have more assists than Sutter has this season lmao

Last year he managed to find a niche but now he seems to have reverted back to being a liability like he was before, I don't know what happened but he looks completely unenergetic and pretty much ineffective when he's been playing, not sure you can pin all of that on his injury.

Might be time to flip him before his value completely evaporates, always a market for centers and it's not really practical to have two pure checking/shutdown lines which they seem to be keen on with this current lineup.
 

Canucks1096

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A couple of things:

1. There was a lot of discussion recently on a thread with a poll about Benning's standing among general managers about whether Sutter was brought in to shelter Horvat.

Pretty clearly he wasn't brought in for that purpose. He was brought in because he was "foundational." To quote Benning, "“Acquiring Brandon Sutter, to me he’s a foundation piece for our group going forward ..."
Benning calls Sutter a ‘foundation piece’ for Canucks

There were comments that he didn't actually shelter Bo because Bo got more defensive zone starts. Benning made a comment in the summer of 2015 that indicated that wasn't the way they intended to shelter Bo, though. They wanted to avoid him having to play 2nd line center before he was ready. Again quoting Benning (from the same article) "Bo Horvat, the last half the year, played really well for us ...We don’t want to put pressure on him to be somewhere in the lineup that he can’t handle it going forward. We want to make sure that he keeps developing as a player."

So to the extent the Canucks intended to use Sutter to shelter Horvat, it wasn't related to defensive play. It was playing up in the lineup.

What actually happened, of course, is that Sutter got injured, only played 20 games the following season so wasn't there to "shelter" anyone. Horvat ended up playing 2nd line center even though the Canucks didn't want to make him play that far up in the lineup at that stage of his career.

2. We've seen a lot of comments about Sutter's contract being bad when made but being ok now because of increases in the salary cap.

There is still hope that his play this season is linked to being hurt, but if Sutter's play this season is at all indicative of what it is going to be for the rest of his contract, his contract is terrible.

A few things

The reason why Horvat got more Dzone faceoffs is because he played more games. That poster with the fancy chart just wanted to make his argument a look a lot more sexy. 2016/2017 when Sutter was healthy 595 Dzone faceoffs. Horvat 555 Dzone faceoffs.

Also so JB called Sutter a foundation player? So that means his job wasnt to Shelter Horvat? You are indicating that term means he should be higher on the depth chart because he is a foundation player. So send me some evidence to prove that foundation player means that? A player that is not front line guy with leadership skills can still be a foundation player as well.
 

Fire Benning

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Something that seems to be constantly ignored when discussing the Sutter trade is that Bonino had two years left on his deal at less than two million per. That alone made him a pretty good asset to have compared to Sutter's extension at 4.375 mil.

Having a center who could eat up minutes in your middle/bottom six and produce around 25-30 points at a cheap salary also would've made him a pretty enticing trade chip for futures.
 
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Peter10

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The reason why Horvat got more Dzone faceoffs is because he played more games. That poster with the fancy chart just wanted to make his argument a look a lot more sexy. 2016/2017 when Sutter was healthy 595 Dzone faceoffs. Horvat 555 Dzone faceoffs.

You dont really know how percentages work, do you?
 

Canucks1096

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First three years after the trade from 2015 to 2018 season. Why did Sutter have a higher ppg than Bonino?

Why does Bonino only average a few more points per 82 game schedule for their career?

When Bonino was playing with 3rd line players last year. Why did Sutter outscored him while playing 10 less games?

Sutter has played with a lot worst linemates almost his whole career than Bonino. Why is Bonino ppg in his career is not that much higher.

40 points in 72 white with 2 legit top 6 wingers in Whitney and Cole is not producing?

Usually I tend value players less if they need a certain type of player to produce.

One season in Pits Sutter regular linemates where Adams and Glass. Imaging if Bonino had to play with those two. The puck probably won't even leave The Dzone.

You don't really know how to reply to this message, Do You?
 

Canucks1096

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There are a few goalies who have more assists than Sutter has this season lmao

Last year he managed to find a niche but now he seems to have reverted back to being a liability like he was before, I don't know what happened but he looks completely unenergetic and pretty much ineffective when he's been playing, not sure you can pin all of that on his injury.

Might be time to flip him before his value completely evaporates, always a market for centers and it's not really practical to have two pure checking/shutdown lines which they seem to be keen on with this current lineup.

Nick Bonino 2010/2011 season

26 GP 0 G 0 A 0 P

He was last in scoring in the entire nhl. Not counting goalies. Btw a lot of goalies outscored him. Lmao.

Of course some other players had 0 point but Bonino played most games with 0 point

Anyway Sutter shoulder is not a 100%. Sutter only 3 games in the previous 5 seasons before joining the Canucks. With this team he just can't stay healthy.
 

Peter10

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You don't really know how to reply to this message, Do You?

Did think it was that relevant but since you are insisting on it...

First three years after the trade from 2015 to 2018 season. Why did Sutter have a higher ppg than Bonino?

Because he is playing more minutes.

PlayerGoals/60Total Assists/60First Assists/60Second Assists/60Total Points/60
Brandon Sutter0.670.730.370.371.41
Nick Bonino0.680.910.560.351.59
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
But then again you said you "dont believe" in points per 60 as if it was some sort of witchcraft.


Why does Bonino only average a few more points per 82 game schedule for their career?

Because he averages a minute less TOI per game

GPTOITOI/G
Brandon Sutter6781120116:30
Nick Bonino529823815.36
[TBODY] [/TBODY]


When Bonino was playing with 3rd line players last year. Why did Sutter outscored him while playing 10 less games?

It might be related that Sutter scored 9 points during garbage time in the last 10 games when the Canucks were out of it. But yeah both had the same points per 60 in the end. So I give Sutter a even on this.

Sutter has played with a lot worst linemates almost his whole career than Bonino. Why is Bonino ppg in his career is not that much higher.

I think thats a rather subjective thing but if you have anything to prove or just indicate that Sutter on average had worse linemates than Bonino, I am looking forward to see that.

40 points in 72 white with 2 legit top 6 wingers in Whitney and Cole is not producing?

Well yeah, thats about 9 years ago and he never came close to matching that again.

Usually I tend value players less if they need a certain type of player to produce.

Usually I tend to value players less if they produce on a terrible rate given their ice time.

One season in Pits Sutter regular linemates where Adams and Glass. Imaging if Bonino had to play with those two. The puck probably won't even leave The Dzone.

Nice strawmen, he played 7.7% of his even strength ice time with those two guys in 13-14 and didnt have a really fixed line. Although, he played a lot with Glass which isnt helping.

However, in his first season with VAN where had just 9 points in 20 games, his 2nd most frequent linemates were the Sedins. For reference that was a 20.8% of the EV TOI compared to the 7.7% you brought up earlier. He also had 54.1% of his PP time with the twins.
 
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Canucks1096

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Did think it was that relevant but since you are insisting on it...



Because he is playing more minutes.

PlayerGoals/60Total Assists/60First Assists/60Second Assists/60Total Points/60
Brandon Sutter0.670.730.370.371.41
Nick Bonino0.680.910.560.351.59
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
But then again you said you "dont believe" in points per 60 as if it was some sort of witchcraft.




Because he averages a minute less TOI per game

GPTOITOI/G
Brandon Sutter6781120116:30
Nick Bonino529823815.36
[TBODY] [/TBODY]


It might be related that Sutter scored 9 points during garbage time in the last 10 games when the Canucks were out of it. But yeah both had the same points per 60 in the end. So I give Sutter a even on this.



I think thats a rather subjective thing but if you have anything to prove or just indicate that Sutter on average had worse linemates than Bonino, I am looking forward to see that.



Well yeah, thats about 9 years ago and he never came close to matching that again.



Usually I tend to value players less if they produce on a terrible rate given their ice time.



Nice strawmen, he played 7.7% of his even strength ice time with those two guys in 13-14 and didnt have a really fixed line. Although, he played a lot with Glass which isnt helping.

However, in his first season with VAN where had just 9 points in 20 games, his 2nd most frequent linemates were the Sedins. For reference that was a 20.8% of the EV TOI compared to the 7.7% you brought up earlier. He also had 54.1% of his PP time with the twins.

The thing is if You do think p/60 is a good way to measure a player. That means you are kind of making an assumption if that players play x amount of mins more his Production will increase. How do we know that? We don't, what is a player plays more bang and crash style or more up tempo. Every players conditioning is difference. They might be better off playing less mins. There is no evidences you can show me that proves if Bonino played 1 minute more his Production will go up.

If p/60 was such a great way to measure players. That means everybody should think Malkin is better than Crosby since for a lot years Malkin had a higher p/60 but almost nobody think that. Do you think Malkin better than Crosby. Mcdavid was 6th in p/60 last year. Do you think he is the 6th best player in the league?

Hansen from about 2011 to about 2013 had the best p/60. Do you think Hansen is the best player on the Canucks?

Come on. Go back on that site and look at the players Bonino and Sutter played well. It's not even debateable Bonino has better players with. In your opinion who had better linemates? Please be honest

Okay sure he played 7.7% With Glass and Adams. That combination was still the most. If you look at all the players on that site. You would see Ebbett and Megna there as well. Sutter pretty much played with 4th liners almost the whole season

The funny thing I been all this forum for years. When there is a debate between player A and B. The main debate people use is usually points or ppg. All of sudden p/60 matter so much in this argument. Lol
 

Peter10

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The thing is if You do think p/60 is a good way to measure a player. That means you are kind of making an assumption if that players play x amount of mins more his Production will increase. How do we know that? We don't, what is a player plays more bang and crash style or more up tempo. Every players conditioning is difference. They might be better off playing less mins. There is no evidences you can show me that proves if Bonino played 1 minute more his Production will go up.

If p/60 was such a great way to measure players. That means everybody should think Malkin is better than Crosby since for a lot years Malkin had a higher p/60 but almost nobody think that. Do you think Malkin better than Crosby. Mcdavid was 6th in p/60 last year. Do you think he is the 6th best player in the league?

Hansen from about 2011 to about 2013 had the best p/60. Do you think Hansen is the best player on the Canucks?

Come on. Go back on that site and look at the players Bonino and Sutter played well. It's not even debateable Bonino has better players with. In your opinion who had better linemates? Please be honest

Okay sure he played 7.7% With Glass and Adams. That combination was still the most. If you look at all the players on that site. You would see Ebbett and Megna there as well. Sutter pretty much played with 4th liners almost the whole season

The funny thing I been all this forum for years. When there is a debate between player A and B. The main debate people use is usually points or ppg. All of sudden p/60 matter so much in this argument. Lol

P/60 is a good thing to use if they players compared have a rather similar role. Of course it is stupid to compare guys who play 6 minutes a night with others who play 20 but if the difference is just a few minutes I think it is a good combination.

Also, quite honestly I couldnt really care less if Sutter is a slightly better player or not. Point is, him and Bonino are not too different in value in the grand sheme of things but if you take the contract into account it was a bad move by Benning, even more so since he added to Bonino. Neither Bonino nor Sutter are core players yet Benning thought he got a foundational player in Sutter who would help the team win while Brandon didnt really move the needle at all. Thats all I am saying.
 
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Melvin

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Bonino was traded for Sutter because he had one bad playoff series, and Benning, like some fans, was dumb enough to believe that that meant something, and dumb enough to believe that Sutter, despite never having a good playoffs, would be a playoff player because his surname is Sutter, and dumb enough to believe that he had built a playoff team in the first place.
 

Bleach Clean

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P/60 is a good thing to use if they players compared have a rather similar role. Of course it is stupid to compare guys who play 6 minutes a night with others who play 20 but if the difference is just a few minutes I think it is a good combination.


You have the right of it and Canucks 1096 still does not. P/60 is a measurement. It's not meant to be conclusive or predictive. It's just a measurement of what had occurred, like PPG. Only, PPG is less accurate because it fails to accurately account for Total TOI and TOI/GP. Canucks1096 fails to understand this. Until he does, he's going to be stuck with the same repetitive and incorrect counter-argument.

By most pertinent measurements at the time, Sutter was clearly the lesser player when compared to Bonino. Add in their relative contracts, and it became more apparent who the better value player had been. So it made no rational sense to make that swap.

Benning made a reactionary mistake. He's a poor pro talent scout and the roster shows it. Sutter/Bonino is just one brick in that wall though.
 

Fire Benning

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Nick Bonino 2010/2011 season

26 GP 0 G 0 A 0 P

He was last in scoring in the entire nhl. Not counting goalies. Btw a lot of goalies outscored him. Lmao.

Of course some other players had 0 point but Bonino played most games with 0 point

Anyway Sutter shoulder is not a 100%. Sutter only 3 games in the previous 5 seasons before joining the Canucks. With this team he just can't stay healthy.

How exactly is Bonino's 2010-11 season relevant to my comment? Were you drunk when you typed this?
 
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Hit the post

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Something that seems to be constantly ignored when discussing the Sutter trade is that Bonino had two years left on his deal at less than two million per. That alone made him a pretty good asset to have compared to Sutter's extension at 4.375 mil.

Having a center who could eat up minutes in your middle/bottom six and produce around 25-30 points at a cheap salary also would've made him a pretty enticing trade chip for futures.
Bonino had another indirect (positive) effect in that he's better at using his wingers (ie., Vrbata) and thus whatever trade value they might have at the trade deadline. It's no different than sticking Y. Weber with Hamhuis in top four minutes.
 

VanJack

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The sad reality is that the Canucks would actually be a better team if they swapped out Gudbranson for a journeyman d-man like Alex Biega; and flipped Sutter and replaced him with a raw rookie like Gaudette.

That's what it's come down to with Jimbo's 'foundational players'.
 
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Canucks1096

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You have the right of it and Canucks 1096 still does not. P/60 is a measurement. It's not meant to be conclusive or predictive. It's just a measurement of what had occurred, like PPG. Only, PPG is less accurate because it fails to accurately account for Total TOI and TOI/GP. Canucks1096 fails to understand this. Until he does, he's going to be stuck with the same repetitive and incorrect counter-argument.

By most pertinent measurements at the time, Sutter was clearly the lesser player when compared to Bonino. Add in their relative contracts, and it became more apparent who the better value player had been. So it made no rational sense to make that swap.

Benning made a reactionary mistake. He's a poor pro talent scout and the roster shows it. Sutter/Bonino is just one brick in that wall though.

So it is not meant to be conclusive or predictive and yet you feel p/60 is such a great argument. Hmm.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you way of thinking it doesn't mean they don't understand

If p/60 was such a great argument. Then that user wouldn't even acknowledge Sutter and Bonino have similar value.

[mod]
 
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Bleach Clean

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So it is not meant to be conclusive or predictive and yet you feel p/60 is such a great argument. Hmm.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you way of thinking it doesn't mean they don't understand

If p/60 was such a great argument. Then that user wouldn't even acknowledge Sutter and Bonino have similar value.

[mod]


P/60 is one of the best measurements, yes, but it doesn’t constitute an entire argument. It’s one facet to a larger argument. As in, there are other variables that also help prove Bonino > Sutter, like their respective contracts.

The stat itself is black and white. If you can’t accept the clear nature of it, that’s on you, it’s not an indictment of the stat itself or my ability to employ it.

Last, if you’re going to take the position that Logic is completely subjective, then you will not find agreement. Period.
 
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