Brandon Sutter -- Save Us GranBranSen || Part 4

[Disappointed EP40]

Career faceoffs

Sure. I am just answering one of his four questions. Read all My Sutter post. I never talked about faceoffs once.

Every argument you've posted has been nonsensical and grasping at straws. Get over it... Bonino is better.

 

[Canucks1096]

That was before Bonino made the NHL full-time. Since then he has been an effective player. Sutter in his first NHL year had 6 pts in 50 games. This was a terrible strawman.

Bonino is right now outplaying Sutter, and its not close.

Sutter was 19 and Bonino was 22. Two different situation.

Yes he is

 

[Canucks1096]

Every argument you've posted has been nonsensical and grasping at straws. Get over it... Bonino is better.

So we ignore the linemates and zone starts. You need to dig a little deeper

If Bonino had Sutter linemates. Do you really he can close to those numbers. Not a chance

 

[Canucks1096]

Sutter's "shutdown ability" is a very curious thing. When you look at typical underlying numbers (shooting events related), he looks fairly ordinary (maybe even poor). He's certainly not suppressing shots. But when you look at the goals data, some strange things come to light.

If you were to define "shutdown ability" as the ability to consistently prevent goals against, Sutter actually fits the definition quite well. And when you start looking at very large samples (where goals data becomes a much better indicator), Sutter's "shutdown" quality becomes quite intriguing.

Consider his career on-ice goals against numbers viewed against the rest of the NHL since the start of the "Behind the Net era" in 2007 (when fancy stats first became publicly available). To remove some of the noise from the goals data, let's examine Sutter against other NHL players with 4000+ minutes of 5v5 since 2007-08 (the results here are going to appear a bit cherry-picked but I honestly chose this grouping in an attempt to produce meaningful sample sizes): http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...0&teamid=0&type=goals&sort=SvPct&sortdir=DESC

Sutter looks pretty impressive here.

His 1.79 5v5 GA60 is 7th. So since 2007-08, only six NHL players with 4000+ minutes of 5v5 have allowed fewer goals against per sixty minutes of 5v5.

Sutter's -0.53 GA60 RelTM is 1st. So since 2007-08, no player (with 4000+ minutes 5v5) in the NHL has produced a lower goals against per sixty rate (5v5), relative to his teammates, than Brandon Sutter.

What's the deal here?

He doesn't suppress shots. His events metrics are kinda crappy (Corsi, Fenwick, etc) but Sutter sure seems to "suppress" goals against.

Is this a "shutdown" player?

Maybe not a typical one. But the results are sure interesting.

Also interesting is what Sutter's goaltenders have managed to achieve over his career. Among that same group of 4000+ minutes 5v5 players since 2007-08, Sutter ranks 2nd in on-ice Sv% (93.96). Ah, so "percentage driven" right? He's just been lucky. But can a player really be that lucky over 6215:45 5v5TOI? Six thousand odd minutes played in front of 12 different goaltenders on three different teams and over 8 NHL seasons. Was it really the goalies? Or does Sutter do something that helps goalies make more saves? And if he does make his goalies "better" then do his shots based underlying numbers matter as much?

Especially when the goals based numbers are so strong (in terms of goals against--we're talking "shutdown" ability here--his goals for numbers aren't great and his diffentials are fairly average).

But Sutter prevents goals against when he's on the ice (both relative to his teammates and relative to players around the league). Those numbers just don't lie. And stopping the other team from scoring (or at least significantly limiting their ability to do so) seems like what a "shutdown" player is supposed to do.

I would agree that Sutter's overall statistical profile is something of an enigma. And I'm really not sure how to explain it.

From watching him play, a couple things do stand out. He seems to be excellent on the backcheck with high end pursuit ability in tracking down and disrupting puck carriers in the neutral zone or forcing them into hurrying shots if they gain the offensive zone. This might explain part of his "shutdown" ability. He's not physical or grinding but he is fairly disruptive and seems to have a good stick defensively. He's also very successful in drawing penalties while not taking many (which sometimes can suggest a larger net positive on-ice effect that other indicators might be missing)--Sutter has had a positive penalties drawn-taken/60 every season he's played and has been +0.5/60 or better in all but one season of his career.

Those are all good things.

But if I'm being honest, I don't know why Sutter prevents goals against. His shots metrics say it shouldn't happen. And the sheer size of the career sample suggests it's not just a statistical quirk. Something is happening in those six thousand odd minutes where Brandon Sutter has kept more pucks out of his team's own nets than nearly any other player of similar minutes played during the same
period of time.

So maybe not a typical shutdown forward. But maybe a highly effective one nonetheless?

For some reason nobody reply to this message. Please read. Thanks

 

[Askel]

Sutter has gotten at least 2nd unit pp time his whole career. He average 1.28 pp mins a season and average 4 to 5 ppp season. He played on 2nd unit pp with a Stanley cup contender in Pits. With a legit great team he can get 2nd unit pp mins but not with the Canucks? Does that make any sense?

"Sutter gotten a good chance to play with good players his career and failed at it each time"

Give me some examples. If you don't have example you are generalizing.

Sutter most frequent linemates since 2010 five on five

2010 Cole Whitney
2011 Dwyer Jokinen
2012 Dwyer Nodl
2013 Cooke Keenedy
2014 Adams Glass
2015 Downie Spaling
2016 Burrows Virtanen 20 games
2017 Eriksson Granlund
2018 Dorsett Granlund
2019 Rousell Virtanen

I think we can all agree maybe with exception Cole and Whitney. All are 3rd and 4th line players. A few players shouldn't even played in the nhl. To say he has gotten a good chance to play with good players is out to lunch. When he did have a chance to play with top 6 wingers he was able to produce low second line numbers 40 points in 72 games

I will agree Bonino can produce a little more with better linemates but Sutter can produce better with worst linemates. Imagine if Bonino has those linemates his career. I highly doubt he would be able to produce Sutter numbers which is about 15 plus goals and about 30 points.

Sutter was acquire to take hard minutes from Horvat and play more of defensive role when Horvat was ready to play regularly in the top 6. Which means Sutter will be playing tough defensive minutes with 3rd/4th line players. Jb traded for Sutter because he was a better fit for that role than Bonino

Friendly reminder. We don't have a Kessel for Bonino to play with here.

Sutter has been tried with Malkin and the Sedins. He couldn't score with them and was demoted to lower lines. Bonino scores when he gets better line mates. Sutter´s pace stays the same, which is the argument. Adding Sutter to play on the second line,, which he did here, was stupid. Sutter had his first good Canuck Season when Green came, and that is because green realized that Willie was an idiot who played Sutter in the top 6.

The thing is that you said that Sutter scored less because he didn't get PP-time, decide how you want to argue this, is he scoring less because of opportunity or because he can't score.

Bonino gets good results playing tough defensive minutes, so does Sutter (not this year). Adding Sutter did absolutely nothing for the Canucks, they only got worse. Meanwhile Bonino has been a part of two great teams.

To summarize my point. I think Bonino is better BECAUSE he can move up in the line-up. Bonino can play good shutdown minutes AND on a scoring line. Sutter is a fine 3rd liner, but he can't fill in when there is injuries in the top six, because he doesn't use his line mates. That why trading Sutter for Bonino was bad for this organisation, why I rather have Bonino over Sutter.

 

[WTG]

So we ignore the linemates and zone starts. You need to dig a little deeper

If Bonino had Sutter linemates. Do you really he can close to those numbers. Not a chance

We saw Sutter with the Sedins, they sucked.
The fact that Bonino CAN hang in there with good offensive players is exactly why he's better. Bonino can play a secondary scoring center and a defensive role, Sutter can only play a defensive role. And it's not like Sutter is better than Bonino defensively either.

 

[WTG]

Sutter has been tried with Malkin and the Sedins. He couldn't score with them and was demoted to lower lines. Bonino scores when he gets better line mates. Sutter´s pace stays the same, which is the argument. Adding Sutter to play on the second line,, which he did here, was stupid. Sutter had his first good Canuck Season when Green came, and that is because green realized that Willie was an idiot who played Sutter in the top 6.

The thing is that you said that Sutter scored less because he didn't get PP-time, decide how you want to argue this, is he scoring less because of opportunity or because he can't score.

Bonino gets good results playing tough defensive minutes, so does Sutter (not this year). Adding Sutter did absolutely nothing for the Canucks, they only got worse. Meanwhile Bonino has been a part of two great teams.

To summarize my point. I think Bonino is better BECAUSE he can move up in the line-up. Bonino can play good shutdown minutes AND on a scoring line. Sutter is a fine 3rd liner, but he can't fill in when there is injuries in the top six, because he doesn't use his line mates. That why trading Sutter for Bonino was bad for this organisation, why I rather have Bonino over Sutter.

Beat me by 3 minutes!
But I agree big time. Bonino is a guy who can be in your bottom 6, be that defensive guy, then if there is an injury he can move up in the lineup. While Sutter is a guy who can only exclusively play in the bottom 6 and I sn't an upgrade on Bonino defensively.

A big point in the playoffs and getting to the playoffs is dealing with injuries. Having flexible players matter, and Bonino is more versatile and flexible than Sutter therefore more valuable, to any team.

 

[Canucks1096]

Sutter has been tried with Malkin and the Sedins. He couldn't score with them and was demoted to lower lines. Bonino scores when he gets better line mates. Sutter´s pace stays the same, which is the argument. Adding Sutter to play on the second line,, which he did here, was stupid. Sutter had his first good Canuck Season when Green came, and that is because green realized that Willie was an idiot who played Sutter in the top 6.

The thing is that you said that Sutter scored less because he didn't get PP-time, decide how you want to argue this, is he scoring less because of opportunity or because he can't score.

Bonino gets good results playing tough defensive minutes, so does Sutter (not this year). Adding Sutter did absolutely nothing for the Canucks, they only got worse. Meanwhile Bonino has been a part of two great teams.

To summarize my point. I think Bonino is better BECAUSE he can move up in the line-up. Bonino can play good shutdown minutes AND on a scoring line. Sutter is a fine 3rd liner, but he can't fill in when there is injuries in the top six, because he doesn't use his line mates. That why trading Sutter for Bonino was bad for this organisation, why I rather have Bonino over Sutter.

Brandon Sutter - Frozen Tools

Malkin story you made that up. They never played together. That site track linemates usage. Nice try

2016 Sutter only played 20 games and only played briefly with the Sedins and he was in on 4 points with the Sedins

2017 briefly with the Sedins as well and got 6 points. I checked the scoring log.

I will admit the production is not high but they didn't play a lot together and also Sutter is a rush type of player and is a center as well.

Can you admit now that Sutter wasnt given much opportunities to play with good players? The only full season he actually had legit linemates was in 2010 and he manage 40 points in 72 games. You did say before his whole career. If I give you Sedins as argument. That's not his whole career.

About the pp. Most team uses at least one forward on the point. Some team uses two. That means a total of 7 or 8 forwards will get pp time. So on average Sutter gets 15 G 30 P a season. With that production he is in the top 7 or 8 in forward scoring on his team? Does the top 7 or 8 scoring forwards deserve pp time? Yes or No. If No should a 4th liner be on the pp instead?

I will admit that Bonino can play better with skill players and produce better result. But I also think Sutter can produce better with 3rd/4th lines. Look at last year Bonino didn't have good linemates and Sutter outscored by a point while playing 10 less games. Even Bonino played with better linemates for the most part in his career. In his career Bonino only had about 4 or more points on a 82 game pace. He is not producing more with better linemates.

The question I want to ask yourself if Bonino need skill players to produce results. Is he really that good?

Bonino you need rely on getting him talented linemates. Sutter you don't need too. Bonino had 6 P in his 30 games in Pits. Then Kessel came to rescue.

In Van Bonino won't get the talent. That's why I think Sutter is a better fit.

One season In Pits Sutter regular linemates are Adams and Glass? Bonino will not be able much those two

Bonino if playing with the Canucks the record wouldn't be much difference.

 

[sting101]

Why the f*** are we still talking about Bonino?
He left Pittsburgh 2 yrs ago. tell me why he would stay in Vancouver instead of going east being UFA

 

[Canucks1096]

We saw Sutter with the Sedins, they sucked.
The fact that Bonino CAN hang in there with good offensive players is exactly why he's better. Bonino can play a secondary scoring center and a defensive role, Sutter can only play a defensive role. And it's not like Sutter is better than Bonino defensively either.

But he needs talent to produce. Without talent he can't produce much. Bonino is an average skater. He need two faster wingers for him to produce.

If he doesn't have two fast skill wingers. Bonino will get 6 P in his first 30 games like in Pits. Then Kessel came to the rescue

 

[Bleach Clean]

Why the **** are we still talking about Bonino?
He left Pittsburgh 2 yrs ago. tell me why he would stay in Vancouver instead of going east being UFA

Bonino is being discussed because one poster cannot accept information and is repeating himself.

-----

As an aside: The Patcast mentions that Sutter has 1 assist on the year, and it was in the first game. Everyone is noticing that Sutter is having a terrible season.

 

[Peter10]

But he needs talent to produce. Without talent he can't produce much. Bonino is an average skater. He need two faster wingers for him to produce.

If he doesn't have two fast skill wingers. Bonino will get 6 P in his first 30 games like in Pits. Then Kessel came to the rescue

So Bonino cant produce without talent but does produce with talent while Sutter cant produce with or without talent and that makes Sutter the better player somehow?

 

[Askel]

Brandon Sutter - Frozen Tools

Malkin story you made that up. They never played together. That site track linemates usage. Nice try

Do you know how to use google?
Here is articles about Sutter playing with Malkin are they all lies?
Penguins could stick with Malkin-Sutter-Dupuis for a while

Penguins notebook: Malkin to remain on wing, for now

Does Malkin Make Sutter Better?
I didnt make anything up,.

2016 Sutter only played 20 games and only played briefly with the Sedins and he was in on 4 points with the Sedins

2017 briefly with the Sedins as well and got 6 points. I checked the scoring log.

I will admit the production is not high but they didn't play a lot together and also Sutter is a rush type of player and is a center as well.

Can you admit now that Sutter wasnt given much opportunities to play with good players? The only full season he actually had legit linemates was in 2010 and he manage 40 points in 72 games. You did say before his whole career. If I give you Sedins as argument. That's not his whole career.

About the pp. Most team uses at least one forward on the point. Some team uses two. That means a total of 7 or 8 forwards will get pp time. So on average Sutter gets 15 G 30 P a season. With that production he is in the top 7 or 8 in forward scoring on his team? Does the top 7 or 8 scoring forwards deserve pp time? Yes or No. If No should a 4th liner be on the pp instead?

I will admit that Bonino can play better with skill players and produce better result. But I also think Sutter can produce better with 3rd/4th lines. Look at last year Bonino didn't have good linemates and Sutter outscored by a point while playing 10 less games. Even Bonino played with better linemates for the most part in his career. In his career Bonino only had about 4 or more points on a 82 game pace. He is not producing more with better linemates.

The question I want to ask yourself if Bonino need skill players to produce results. Is he really that good?

Bonino you need rely on getting him talented linemates. Sutter you don't need too. Bonino had 6 P in his 30 games in Pits. Then Kessel came to rescue.

In Van Bonino won't get the talent. That's why I think Sutter is a better fit.

One season In Pits Sutter regular linemates are Adams and Glass? Bonino will not be able much those two

Bonino if playing with the Canucks the record wouldn't be much difference.

Sutter has gotten opportunities to play in a top 6 role here in Vancouver. He was 2nd in ice time/game in 16/17 playing over 18 min a game and scoring at a 30 pt pace. He was 3rd on PP time per game among forwards. In 15/16 he was 3rd in icetime/ game and 4th in PP ice time/game, once agagin scoring at 30 pt pace. This is my point, Benning brought in Sutter to play in the top 6 , where he is not effective. Sutter was not brought to the Canucks to play in the bottom six he was brought in an deployed as a 2nd line center and faeild.

Sutter was making the Sedins worse thats why they took him of that line, he is a player that dont play well with others, of those 4 pts he got he got 3 in one game.

Well have to disagree here I think Sutter has gotten a lot of opportunities and failed at being a top six players. Canucks had Vrbata and Higgins/Burrows at second line wingers at the time of the trade I think Bonino would have gotten better results with them than Sutter did. Sutter cant pass, thats why he cant play in the top six.

I dont mind Sutter as a third liner, I think would prefer Bonino since he is better at using his linemates and therefore can move up in the lineup.

 

[Askel]

So we ignore the linemates and zone starts. You need to dig a little deeper

If Bonino had Sutter linemates. Do you really he can close to those numbers. Not a chance

Boninos linemates this year is Colton Sissons, Austin Watson, Jarnkrok, Salomaki. Sutter get Virtanen , Eriksson, Roussel and Motte. Sutter has 5 pts in 21 games. Bonino has 27 pts in 51 games.

Bonino is as always outplaying Sutter.

 

[xtra]

Boninos linemates this year is Colton Sissons, Austin Watson, Jarnkrok, Salomaki. Sutter get Virtanen , Eriksson, Roussel and Motte. Sutter has 5 pts in 21 games. Bonino has 27 pts in 51 games.

Bonino is as always outplaying Sutter.

So now who has the better line mates?

Has benning created a 3rd line that he’s proud off that would be a 4th line at best on a contender or has sitter been playing with more talented players than bonino?

 

[Canucks1096]

Boninos linemates this year is Colton Sissons, Austin Watson, Jarnkrok, Salomaki. Sutter get Virtanen , Eriksson, Roussel and Motte. Sutter has 5 pts in 21 games. Bonino has 27 pts in 51 games.

Bonino is as always outplaying Sutter.

So you decided to look at his linemates for one season. The difference for me and you is I look at the whole career to determine who is better. You are looking at one season. That is cherry picking and you are exaggerating as well. You know Bonino it not always outplaying Sutter

Bonino most frequent linemates

2012 Blake Cogliano
2013 Ryan Selannae
2014 Belesky Palmieri
2015 Burrows Higgins
2016 Kessel Hagelin
2017 Kessel Hagelin
2018 Hartnell Jarnkrok
2019 Scissons Watson

I think most of us can agree 2018 and 2012 Bonino had the worst linemates. It So Happens Sutter outscored him both season. Is that a coincidence?

Like I said Sutter can produce better with lower end players.

Look at the season before Bonino plays with Kessel and only produce 3 more points than Sutter.

Yes Bonino can play with talent better it look at the ppg through 82 games. A difference is a only 4 points and that's it.

Sutter was in to fill that second line center until Horvat was ready to Play on the top 6. Once Horvat Was ready to play in the top 6, Sutter will move down and take the hard matchups.

I was wrong about the Malkin. I didn't know. The site I believe just listed the linemate he most frequently played with. But one of the article did claim that line was doing well. But its a still a small stretch. When Sutter did have regular top 6 Forward he was able produce at a 47 point pace when he is in Carolina

You didnt respond about about Sutter being in the top 7 or 8 in forward in scoring and that's why he is on the pp.. I am guessing you are accepting that argument.

Also you didn't respond when I said Bonino can produce with talented player. I am guess you are accepting that argument as well.

Anyway "you wrote as always Bonino is outproducing Sutter" you know that is not true. This example of the 5 letter word that starts with the T. Are you doing that now? If you are, we need to stop.

 

[xtra]

It’s funny that admitting that bonino is the better player is a hill someone is willing to die on when every objective person will say that.

If the belief is that we are clouded by anti benning hate then simply post a poll on the main board with your stats and the bonino stats and et them decide

 

[sting101]

my take on the Bonino Sutter deal.

After the Calgary series and 14/15 management did not like the looks of H.Sedin and Bonino down the middle for our team.( Too slow) The thought going forward was that Horvat would eventually be a 2C anyway and that Sutter would be a upgrade in speed without much if any loss in production and would eventually play the Malhotra role and would be a good western kid that would stick around (as he has) as a "foundation'" for the growth of our young players because of his history of playing against other teams top lines.

I dont think they cared in the least that Bonino was on a better contract as he was not what they were looking for long term, probably would not have stayed beyond free agency in a rebuild and after watching how fast the NHL was becoming and Henrik being so slow already they were willing to even sweeten the pot to get the deal done.

I do know for a fact that they thought they could get more from Sutter offensively then they have and that Bonino absolutely has been the better player after the deal. Obviously NB has been the benefactor of some pretty ideal situations especially playing behind Crosby and Malkin with Kessel and Hagelin 2 of the fastest players in hockey. Nick Bonino has the talent vision and skills of a good top6 Centre just has poor foot speed which has him more ideally as a 3c on a good team. Brandon Sutter plays with tunnel vision and is a really poor playmaker yet has more 1 on 1 talent which unfortunately doesn't help his linemates much and has been a disaster with his inability to stay healthy.

We lost the trade. Alhough i'm pretty doubtful that Bonino would have stuck around and re signed here during the swoon and at 30 i'm not so sure where he would fit going forward either.

As for Sutter he better get his act together because for 3 years i have defended this player and this season he has been absolutely awful. So bad since his return that outside of a couple games he has been worse than a career 4th liner in Jay Beagle and the worst player on his line. We need him to get going not just for the team but so we can sell this player to San Jose or whoever for a nice package of assets once they feel Gaudette is ready to go.

 

[4Twenty]

They acquired Sutter because they thought he'd be a 2C once he got out from under the shadows of Crosby and Malkin and boy was that wrong.'

And if you disagree with that look back at what they were saying when he was acquired and how they used him the first two years he was here, certainly not Malhotra usage, which didn't start until last season.

It was never about wanting Bonino moving forward, it was about having a cheap stop gap 2/3 tweener C who would have returned a pretty nice package of futures at any point in the deal, and at sub $2m salary that would be something contenders would love to have....hence him winning two cups in a row and signing with another contender immediately after.

 

[VanJack]

The Canucks are better with Gaudette with the lineup.....and frankly it's ridiculous that he had to be sent to the minors with Sutter's return.

Jimbo has been quoted to the point of pedantry claiming that if a young player is ready to displace a veteran, then he'll make room for him. So this is really on the GM to fix it.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

They acquired Sutter because they thought he'd be a 2C once he got out from under the shadows of Crosby and Malkin and boy was that wrong.'

And if you disagree with that look back at what they were saying when he was acquired and how they used him the first two years he was here, certainly not Malhotra usage, which didn't start until last season.

It was never about wanting Bonino moving forward, it was about having a cheap stop gap 2/3 tweener C who would have returned a pretty nice package of futures at any point in the deal, and at sub $2m salary that would be something contenders would love to have....hence him winning two cups in a row and signing with another contender immediately after.

Did you watch Bonino in the 2015 series against Calgary..?...complete no show.

 

[4Twenty]

Did you watch Bonino in the 2015 series against Calgary..?...complete no show.

I've addressed this before, you can look it up. "Complete no show" is a throw away statement that doesn't say anything and doesn't even deserve a response. Would you care to elaborate?

What do you say about his playoff statistics every other year in his career? How would you compare the 3 points in 6 games being a no show to Sutter's 2 points in 5 games the same playoffs?

 

[Peter10]

Did you watch Bonino in the 2015 series against Calgary..?...complete no show.

Good thing that Sutter is a true playoff warrior.

 

[mathonwy]

Good thing that Sutter is a true playoff warrior.

Pens traded Sutter because HSK line sounded lame.

True story.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I've addressed this before, you can look it up. "Complete no show" is a throw away statement that doesn't say anything and doesn't even deserve a response. Would you care to elaborate?

What do you say about his playoff statistics every other year in his career? How would you compare the 3 points in 6 games being a no show to Sutter's 2 points in 5 games the same playoffs?

To me, he just looked really slow in that series (despite having a decent regular season), and this ,on a veteran team that had too many slow players.....I've always felt that the Sutter trade, and the Dorsett signing were a response to the humiliating defeat they took from the Flames...

Bonino has done well for himself, on teams that have had tremendous depth..I have no horse in this race,I was just making a comment on Bonino's playoff performance, and why the trade was made.