Discussion in 'Vancouver Canucks' started by Ronning On Empty, Jan 27, 2019.
Previous Thread: Brandon Sutter -- Save Us GranBranSen || Part 4
Last post of the previous thread:
P/60 is one of the best measurements, yes, but it doesn’t constitute an entire argument. It’s one facet to a larger argument. As in, there are other variables that also help prove Bonino > Sutter, like their respective contracts.
The stat itself is black and white. If you can’t accept the clear nature of it, that’s on you, it’s not an indictment of the stat itself or my ability to employ it.
Last, if you’re going to take the position that Logic is completely subjective, then you will not find agreement. Period.
Points Per/60, what does it really mean?
Lot of different opinion p/60. I think you are getting confuse on your personal opinion vs logic. If you taken any course in school about logic. You will learn it can be subjective a lot of times. Hardly anyone gave your reasoning on why P/60 is a good measurement.
Guys who cares if Bonino or Sutter is better, let’s call it even. The fact we gave up Bonino, 2nd rounder, Clendening for Sutter and late 3rd rounder is a win for Pittsburgh. Factor in the contract Bonino had and the horrible contract we gave Sutter, it ended up being a very bad deal for us. Let’s move on from this and steer the thread back to Sutter and the disappointing season he’s having, cheers!
I am done with Sutter vs Bonino. See you guys in other threads.
The problem really isn't even Sutter versus Bonino, it's that a gm looked at two roughly comparable secondary players and thought one was "foundational" and therefore worth overpaying for. And his eye for talent still hasn't improved.
Anyway, moving on. Sutter can be a decent role player, but is still stupidly overpaid.
I'm glad you linked that thread. The OP there is struggling to contextualize the P/60 stat and so he asks how it should be used. It's similar to your quandary here, where you are either unable or unwilling to contextualize the P/60 stat in order to further the discussion beyond it.
The first response in the thread explains this very well:
"Per 60 rates are a measure of efficiency, that require more context than they generally receive."
It's not an inherently good/bad stat, like you are illogically trying to pose. It's a measurement that requires context. That context being other stats and argument structures that adhere to logic in order to come to a rational conclusion.
On the point of logic: You do not understand logic. It's never wholly subjective, that would make it arbitrary. A structure you can just throw away as you see fit. When in fact it is used to reach meaningful conclusion. Arbitrary rationales do not do this.
Logic can be subjective in what we apply it to, but the structure of argument that follows is still rooted in objective logic. Your argument structure does not employ forms of objective logic, and it's why you continue to face disagreement.
It's reached a point where the Canucks aren't even at 'neutral' with Sutter and Gudbranson in the lineup. They've now got replacements that would actually 'improve' the hockey club on a nightly basis. In essence, the Canucks are 'carrying' them because of salary considerations.
But how do you unload more than $8m in combined salary? Not likely going to happen.
Much like Gudbranson you'd have to be pretty brain dead not to trade Sutter this year if there's any remaining interest. You have replacements for these players in the organization that are at the very least neutral, and may improve, the roster (i.e. Gaudette and Biega). There's no reason to carry a couple guys who are basically playing themselves out of the league in real time.
Was shocked when looking at the underlying data of how horrible Sutter really is:
GA/60 (goals allowed per 60 mins)
(Beagle & Gaudette 2.4)
GF/60 (goals scored per 60 mins)
In 21 games played Sutter has 1 assist (opening night) and is - 13. Sutter is the worst player offensively and defensively on the roster. To illustrate how horrible Sutter has been offensively: Biega has 4 assists in 14 games; Beagle, Schaller, Motte each have 5+. Gaudette & Beagle are better players (heck even Gaunce & Granlund are better options for centring the 3rd line based on analytics). Sutter completely sucks the offensive life out of any wingers he plays with.
Welp, so much for Sutter's trade value.
Good thing we healthy scratch him so young players with offensive skill and upside can develop or at least have their trade value upped . . . oh, wait . . .
I really think a top playoff team would pay a good price for Sutter. I also think we are a better team with Gaudette playing Sutter's spot as the third line center.
Injuries have taken their toll on both Sutter and Gudbranson imo....serious shoulder injuries for both and Sutter has had a history of hernia and abdominal surgeries.
And it's a reached a point where the Canucks have younger and cheaper prospects who could replace both guys. Besides, they're getting to the point in their careers where they're clearly outside the age cohort of players who'll form the next core on a rebuilding team. So that leaves the trade market. But the rest of the league can see the same film and underlying stats that the Canucks look at daily.
Without eating some serious salary, these guys are mostly unmovable.
Not if they know how to use google.
Canuck career stats:
PPG = .39
33pts per/ 82
averag GP = 61 p/80
ATOI = 16:12
OZS = 36.44%
Summary = Lower echelon of 3rd line player production over used and injury prone. Good penalty killer and poor at elevating linemates. Is more of a decent 4c at this point than a good 3c who can back up his top2 Cs
GF % = 45.12 (302 out of 360)
GF/60 = 1.84 (311 out of 360)
GA/60 = 2.24 (138 out of 360)
CORSI % = 44.7 (354 out of 360)
Summary = In the worst 10-20% of players who play decent minutes in production, good at suppressing offense. Even in relation to players who play bottom 6 minutes he has been poor at producing any offense and is extremely frustrating at distributing timely passes, has had another poor injury prone season to date and is poor value for his contract.
Except Sutter was this bad before he suffered those injuries here.
Imagine how terrible Bonino would look instead...
Realistically Benning is going to hold onto his guys because next season is the make or break season for his administration. Next season marks year 6 of his tenure and Green's 3rd as coach. Green has a 4 year contract and you don't leave coaches hanging into their final season. So, it's either an extension for Green in 2020 or they move off him. Can't see him going into 20-21 season on his last year. If the Canucks miss the playoffs next season, especially with the emergence of Pettersson, then I think Aquaman will fire him.
Delaying the rebuild the way the franchise did meant that they have fewer prospects in the 21-23 year age range to help them next season.
Sutter's NTC drops to a M-NTC where he can be moved to half the teams. But, I can't imagine a scenario where the Canucks are not retaining to drop his cap hit down to $3 million or take back a contract to even things out.
Hirsch's latest SN650 radio hit has him saying that there will be major interest in Sutter at the TDL. He speculates that teams have already called the Canucks on him.
Edit: Here is the radio spot:
Corey Hirsch on how the Canucks should approach the deadline - Sportsnet.ca
Just realized the assist he got against the Avs was his 2nd assist of the season. 2nd. Unbelievable.
Placed on IR during the game
what a garbage season
Just Benning lining up his annual injury excuses...
It's as if the team needs more quality depth players. I'm sure next year will be the year Jim figures it out. It's not like this is a yearly problem, he cites at the end of every single season. It's also not like he suggests he's happy with his depth, going into the season, every single year.
One hell of an asset this guy has turned out to be.
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