Speculation: Botterill and Slow Cooking

Jame

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If you give me the choice between having placeholder vets who are TERRIBLE get those spots

vs

young prospects who are merely BAD because they're not ready,

then I take slow cooking all day. The prospects should look good when they come up, and not just better than a trainwreck, because we are invested in them learning how to succeed.

I'm not aware of the player who was too good for their AHL development this year.

This comes back to the point about players having different development needs and developing differently, under different circumstances/environments...

Case in point... Casey Nelson looked awful in Rochester. But challenged in Buffalo, and he began to emerge.

There’s no “one size fits all”, development strategy... but we employed one anyways.
 
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kp2575

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Going into next year I have no problem with bringing up the kids from Rochester that can't pass through waivers and keeping them up here. If they need to give Nylander, CM, and Borgen time/more time in the AHL that's fine. I'd rather spend a year giving the group of (Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, E-Rod, Nelson, Malone, and Smith) a chance to fail/succeed and see where they stand versus spending money on risk-reward trash piles. (Along with bringing along the younger players that can pass through waivers.) It gives them a year to grow in the league and be evaluated while pushing 10 million of garbage contracts off the books in Moulson and Pommers. Their spots are going to be filled with the likes of Pu, Asplund, VO, and potentially others at the AHL level anyway.
 

Dingo44

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Maybe it's a year premature, or maybe this is the time to make this move, but what about "promoting" Taylor from Amerks HC to a Sabres assistant? I'm not sold on Chris Hajt as an assistant coach, especially for D. Tails can continue to work with guys who've made the Sabres next year like Ullmark/Guhle/Baptiste/Bailey/Nelson/Nylander/Smith/Malone and continue to teach them to prepare, train, and play the 'right" way. You'd have to backfill Rochester with another great development coach. But this also gives us a potential interim/future HC on the bench if/when Housley gets fired.
 

Jame

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I thought I did address this.

What I was bringing up about the placeholder vets vis a vis development was it was a necessary evil coming into this season. IMO we had no options from within. Going forward we should have some options with the players I listed (and you mentioned Malone). So I think he would be willing to use them. That would be the happy medium you reference. Something I don't believe was realistic to start this year. I guess I'm saying he would come to that happy medium less from adapting from the vet experience this year than from incorporating options I don't think he had previously.



Does Botts have enough faith in these guys to use them as depth? Of the guys we've mentioned.......

- Guhle/Ullmark are givens IMO
-Nelson probably is as well if he's signed. (I'm not sure of his waiver status which would impact this)
- Bailey/Baptiste, we won't know for sure until its time to tender QO. If they get them then they'll be here due to their waiver status.
- CJ Smith and Malone its impossible to say even with the talk that Smith would have been here a few weeks ago had he been healthy.





Fair enough. I have no idea what to expect either mostly because I don't know what his plans are. Is he looking to tweak and be patient? Doesn't sound like it. Is he looking to move out bigger pieces? If so, how big will those pieces be? Will those moves include any of the youngsters we discussed?

Why doesn’t Guhle need to be slow cooked?
 

AustonsNostrils

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Maybe it's a year premature, or maybe this is the time to make this move, but what about "promoting" Taylor from Amerks HC to a Sabres assistant? I'm not sold on Chris Hajt as an assistant coach, especially for D. Tails can continue to work with guys who've made the Sabres next year like Ullmark/Guhle/Baptiste/Bailey/Nelson/Nylander/Smith/Malone and continue to teach them to prepare, train, and play the 'right" way. You'd have to backfill Rochester with another great development coach. But this also gives us a potential interim/future HC on the bench if/when Housley gets fired.

Taylor's not ready and best for him if we think he has the potential to be an NHL head coach is to put in some seasons as a head coach in Rochester.

It looks like there are going to be a bunch of experienced NHL coaches out of work soon - Quennville at the top of the list, Trotz quite possibly, same for Vigneault, Darryl Sutter is still out there, Todd McLellan

I've always liked Vigneault but all these coaches if you ask the fans of their teams will have a lot of criticism.

This has to be the off-season Sheldon Keefe gets an NHL job, he's done an incredible job with the Marlies, they set an AHL record this year for road wins and he's doing it without the Leafs top prospects who are almost all on the Leafs.
 

Kyndig

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3 minutes into this video Lebrun talks about Buffalo - says an ROR or Reinhart could be traded but probably only if a team was willing to overpay, Botterill not looking to trade them.

Insider Trading: Which coaches are on the hot seat?

So they're ready to make changes..Obviously Eichel isn't going anywhere but they don't really want to trade ROR or Reinhart either unless someone overpays and they don't want to potentially replace Housley with Quenneville. Doesn't sound like they're making any real changes at all. Also not going after a veteran coach who has won 3 Stanley Cups in the past 8 years would be peak stupidity.

Pominville is probably stuck with us for one more year.

Okposo is stuck here for eternity or until we buy him out most likely.

Bogosian isn't going anywhere for 2 more years because hes always injured.

Moulson will just get buried in the AHL again for one more year.

Beaulieu probably isn't going anywhere for one more year unless we can somehow manage to pawn him off for a late pick.

Wilson will probably be re-signed given we got a decent player for a 5th pick or whatever it was.

Lehner would have to be a sign and trade or something probably. I don't see him coming back.

TheChad isn't getting re-signed.

Pouliot isn't getting re-signed.

So essentially. Lehner, Pouliot, TheChad, maybe Beaulieu, Larsson?, Girgensons? could be on the way out. That doesn't change the team's dynamics at all aside from goaltending.
 

AustonsNostrils

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So they're ready to make changes..Obviously Eichel isn't going anywhere but they don't really want to trade ROR or Reinhart either unless someone overpays and they don't want to potentially replace Housley with Quenneville. Doesn't sound like they're making any real changes at all. Also not going after a veteran coach who has won 3 Stanley Cups in the past 8 years would be peak stupidity.

Pominville is probably stuck with us for one more year.

Okposo is stuck here for eternity or until we buy him out most likely.

Bogosian isn't going anywhere for 2 more years because hes always injured.

Moulson will just get buried in the AHL again for one more year.

Beaulieu probably isn't going anywhere for one more year unless we can somehow manage to pawn him off for a late pick.

Wilson will probably be re-signed given we got a decent player for a 5th pick or whatever it was.

Lehner would have to be a sign and trade or something probably. I don't see him coming back.

TheChad isn't getting re-signed.

Pouliot isn't getting re-signed.

So essentially. Lehner, Pouliot, TheChad, maybe Beaulieu, Larsson?, Girgensons? could be on the way out. That doesn't change the team's dynamics at all aside from goaltending.

Nope it doesn't change things much - but it may be better than making major changes. Unless there is an overpay we should carry on with this core and fill in with the Baileys, Baptistes, Malones, Faschings, Smiths, Nylanders, Asplunds, Pu's. I don't want more Pouliot and Nolan signings.
 

struckbyaparkedcar

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What I was bringing up about the placeholder vets vis a vis development was it was a necessary evil coming into this season. IMO we had no options from within. Going forward we should have some options with the players I listed (and you mentioned Malone). So I think he would be willing to use them. That would be the happy medium you reference. Something I don't believe was realistic to start this year. I guess I'm saying he would come to that happy medium less from adapting from the vet experience this year than from incorporating options I don't think he had previously.
The idea that Baptiste/Bailey became better NHL players than Moulson/Griffith/Nolan sometime during their additional development in the A is suspect.

Additionally, if the organization prioritizes waiver eligibility to the same degree in next year's camp, they didn't learn what Chain is getting at. Even if the player pool is younger.
 

Jame

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So they're ready to make changes..Obviously Eichel isn't going anywhere but they don't really want to trade ROR or Reinhart either unless someone overpays and they don't want to potentially replace Housley with Quenneville. Doesn't sound like they're making any real changes at all. Also not going after a veteran coach who has won 3 Stanley Cups in the past 8 years would be peak stupidity.

Pominville is probably stuck with us for one more year.

Okposo is stuck here for eternity or until we buy him out most likely.

Bogosian isn't going anywhere for 2 more years because hes always injured.

Moulson will just get buried in the AHL again for one more year.

Beaulieu probably isn't going anywhere for one more year unless we can somehow manage to pawn him off for a late pick.

Wilson will probably be re-signed given we got a decent player for a 5th pick or whatever it was.

Lehner would have to be a sign and trade or something probably. I don't see him coming back.

TheChad isn't getting re-signed.

Pouliot isn't getting re-signed.

So essentially. Lehner, Pouliot, TheChad, maybe Beaulieu, Larsson?, Girgensons? could be on the way out. That doesn't change the team's dynamics at all aside from goaltending.

You can make pretty big changes by buying out and/or burying the dead weight (Poms, Bogo, Beaulieu, Moulson), not re-signing any of the garbage (Gorges, Falk, Pouliot, Josefson, Tennyson, Nolan, Griffith), and making a big change in Goal by moving on from Lehner.

That alone turns over 50% of the opening night roster...
 

joshjull

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Why doesn’t Guhle need to be slow cooked?

What does that mean to you, "slow cook" him? Also why are you asking me? I view players individually and don't have some arbitrary development model that I apply to all. I've stated many times, over the course of this season, that I didn't think anyone in our system had shown they were ready to make the jump to the NHL at the start of this year. If you disagree thats fine. But thats the standard I go by to determine in my mind whether someone should be given a chance to start in the NHL. So its not hard for me to see Guhle's play right now and think he's ready to start in the NHL next year. Its completely constant with my view on development.
 
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Fezzy126

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The idea that Baptiste/Bailey became better NHL players than Moulson/Griffith/Nolan sometime during their additional development in the A is suspect.

Additionally, if the organization prioritizes waiver eligibility to the same degree in next year's camp, they didn't learn what Chain is getting at. Even if the player pool is younger.

I don't think anyone here is saying that (at least I hope no one is); however, the goal isn't to be better than the placeholders. The goal is to allow each of these players to grow so they can reach their maximum potential. If keeping them on the farm is the best path for the latter, then so be it. I don't see how anyone on here can say one way or another what would have been best for an individual player's development, even in hindsight, unless it was completely botched.

Then the discussion becomes more about the selection of the veteran placeholders, but that topic has been discussed ad nauseam all year.
 
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brian_griffin

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Thank you.

I'm not at all a fan of food preparation terms and methods when talking about developing hockey players. I find the whole thing distasteful.
Relax, no one suggested you simmer down.

We aren't all seasoned vets when it comes to this sort of thing.

Well, at least Dex spoke up, instead of just stewing on it. This topic of young player development is ripe for discussion, and, despite some disagreements, the arguments put forth have been cogent, and in no way half-baked. .
 

joshjull

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The idea that Baptiste/Bailey became better NHL players than Moulson/Griffith/Nolan sometime during their additional development in the A is suspect.

Additionally, if the organization prioritizes waiver eligibility to the same degree in next year's camp, they didn't learn what Chain is getting at. Even if the player pool is younger.

Thats not at all the point being made.

The role of the place holder is right in their descriptive. They are there to hold a place on the roster or in the lineup until the young player is viewed by the coaches/management to be ready to take over. They are not playing because they are viewed as the better player. A young player being in the AHL or NHL, being in the lineup and how much they play when dressed is largely determined by how their play is viewed by the coaches and/or management. Not because a placeholder vet is determined to be a better option.

I also have no idea why Bailey keeps getting brought up in these discussions. He was here by game 6 and left 7 games later with a lower body injury (I believe an ankle). His struggles to get his game going after that and another injury in Rochester are why he wasn't option in the first half.
 
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joshjull

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I don't think anyone here is saying that (at least I hope no one is); however, the goal isn't to be better than the placeholders. The goal is to allow each of these players to grow so they can reach their maximum potential. If keeping them on the farm is the best path for the latter, then so be it. I don't see how anyone on here can say one way or another what would have been best for an individual player's development, even in hindsight, unless it was completely botched.

Then the discussion becomes more about the selection of the veteran placeholders, but that topic has been discussed ad nauseam all year.

Exactly.

The thing is the youngsters viewed by coaches/management as ready to play instead of the placeholders haven't really be effected by them. The two that fall into that category are Guhle and Nelson. You don't see their ice time or being able to dress getting effected all that much by placeholders.
 
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1point21Gigawatts

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Relax, no one suggested you simmer down.

fPe.gif



I hate the idea of trading core players right now. I have resigned myself to the fact that coaching isn't going to change, so the roster needs to but there are plenty of pieces we can get rid of without touching the guys who are actually worth something. If Reinhart is traded then Botterill will have lost me completely.
 

Sabresfansince1980

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Talent not required?

So, basically guys who are good guys but no other team wants to sign and have no other options. Then waive Bailey, Baptiste, and Fasching and hope they clear. Good plan.

Should I really bother with a serious response if you just want to put stupid words in my mouth? This is the stuff that made me not bother posting much here anymore.
 

oldgoalie

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Relax, no one suggested you simmer down.



Well, at least Dex spoke up, instead of just stewing on it. This topic of young player development is ripe for discussion, and, despite some disagreements, the arguments put forth have been cogent, and in no way half-baked. .
suddenly, I'm hungry.
 

Sabresfansince1980

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The whole concept of rookies vs vets, IMO, should simply come down to whether the rookie/young player has proven himself to be ready with his play and attitude. Starting trash vets doesn't have to mean they are better players, they don't have to perform better, don't have to make a playoff push. They don't have to prove anything except that they're willing to make an honest effort on behalf of the organization. If young players can't understand that they aren't being measured up against the vet, but being measured up against the standards that the coach/GM demand for their new vision of a future team, then that reflects on their attitude. I doubt an explanation would be too difficult to understand though, especially during transition years, and shouldn't cause some cloudy misunderstanding or conflict of message in young players' minds.

This doesn't equate to some blanket process for all young players, in fact it is entirely an individual approach based on the individual's development. If they're ready they move up and play. If they struggle they go back down. If at some point they become waiver eligible then the GM has to make a tough decision, but based on the young player's development, not the vet's level of play (we're not talking about a Hossa, Iginla, or similar guy still playing well, we're talking about fringe guys). It has nothing to do with how well the fringe vet performs. Obviously because of guaranteed contracts and cap rules, etc there will be tough calls for GMs, we all get that and that's a constant issue for all teams regardless of the state of their franchise. Sometimes decisions are made based on other reasons, but that happens all the time. Generally though, the above is how it should work. And NO, that doesn't mean tossing promising guys off to waivers for no good reason, despite what some smart guys around here want to be super smart about.
 

struckbyaparkedcar

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I don't think anyone here is saying that (at least I hope no one is); however, the goal isn't to be better than the placeholders. The goal is to allow each of these players to grow so they can reach their maximum potential. If keeping them on the farm is the best path for the latter, then so be it. I don't see how anyone on here can say one way or another what would have been best for an individual player's development, even in hindsight, unless it was completely botched.

Then the discussion becomes more about the selection of the veteran placeholders, but that topic has been discussed ad nauseam all year.
The idea that Baptiste/Bailey materially or irreplaceably developed during their additional time in the A is just as suspect.

Additionally, isolating the conversation to the AHL bubble ignores how giving the easiest minutes on the team to no-future players limited the development of NHL talent and generally stagnated things at the top.

The organization’s handling of the roster bubble has been arbitrary for the entire season. The idea that it was tied to any sort of development, especially past Guhle, is pure revisionism.
 

Dingo44

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Should I really bother with a serious response if you just want to put stupid words in my mouth? This is the stuff that made me not bother posting much here anymore.

But that's your quote. Sorry your feelings are hurt, but I just don't get the point you were trying to make. Doing what you are suggesting, if I read it correctly, means another season like the last one, if not worse, and overripe kids sitting in Rochester or maybe worse getting lost on waivers for nothing.

They don't have to be worth anything, just bring the right attitude and still want to play in the NHL.
 

Sabresfansince1980

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But that's your quote. Sorry your feelings are hurt, but I just don't get the point you were trying to make. Doing what you are suggesting, if I read it correctly, means another season like the last one, if not worse, and overripe kids sitting in Rochester or maybe worse getting lost on waivers for nothing.

Uh...no, my quote was not about waiving BBF and hoping they clear. I simply described the type of vets that would be placeholders, and you decided to make something up about how I thought young players should be handled. You made that up entirely by yourself, and that's the useless stuff that throws discussions into wastes of time.
 

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