Bobby Ryan VS James Van Reimsdyk

[Samsquanch]

Both are burly, talented American born wingers that are former 2nd overall picks.

Both have a very similar 0.65ppg career average, and were considered to be star caliber players at times. But both have also suffered from inconsistency issues, are guilty of not using their bodies/size enough, and have had their effort levels called into question on occasion. And while neither of them were "bad" picks - both have been leapfrogged by other players from their draft in any redos.

Bobby had a far better and more impressive start to his career and burst onto the scene at a relatively young age. He had 4 straight 30 goal seasons at one point (with a 71pt/63pt career highs versus 61pts for JVR), and was one of the leagues most valuable young stars. He has the superior playoff numbers over JVR, and was the Sens best forward in their 2017 ECF run.

Simply put, he was the more offensively dangerous player in his prime due to his vision and soft hands, and was less reliant on elite linemates to feed him than JVR always has been imo.

And while JVR had a bad start to his career by comparison, and he was even traded before he really figured it out. Clearly hes playing the back 9 holes of his career at a far better pace than Bobby is right now. And of the two of them, hes been a better top 6 player for the last many number of years.

But if were asking the question of who was the more impressive 2nd OV pick as of today, not who do you think will have the better career eventually (because injuries, a deeply troubled family life/childhood, and eventual substance abuse have all taken their toll on Ryan both physically and mentally) - then who do you go with?

Click to read more...

 

[biturbo19]

I think you pretty much said it all, when it comes to Bobby Ryan having the more impressive "peak". For me, that's the better "2nd Overall Pick", compared to the guy in JVR who has maybe had a bit more longevity as a "stat compiler" later into his career, but never really been the "gamebreaker" Bobby was at the top of his game.

 

[Samsquanch]

I think you pretty much said it all, when it comes to Bobby Ryan having the more impressive "peak". For me, that's the better "2nd Overall Pick", compared to the guy in JVR who has maybe had a bit more longevity as a "stat compiler" later into his career, but never really been the "gamebreaker" Bobby was at the top of his game.

I like it bud, thanks! And while obviously that was my "slant" in the post - Bobby is the right answer for the exact reasons you just highlighted.

But Im sure there is a younger portion of the hockey world that will have only seen that JVR has pretty much been the better player of the two for the last 6 or 7 seasons, and would just assume that he is obviously the right answer.

Having said that, I thought it was a good idea for a poll considering the fact that they were both 2nd OV American born wingers with 0.65ppg average (yet got those points very differently) - but apparently not many people are interested in this question...

 

[Gurglesons]

Bobby Ryan had the better peak.

JVR more consistent career.

imo

I feel like the alcohol thing might be an excuse for Ryan’s sudden downfall, but in reality I think it was the fact the league got extremely fast from 2014 onward.

 

[Samsquanch]

I feel like the alcohol thing might be an excuse for Ryan’s sudden downfall, but in reality I think it was the fact the league got extremely fast from 2014 onward.

Totally unfair imo. This is a guy that we should literally be calling Bobby Stevenson right now - not Bobby Ryan - which is his assumed alias that he took after seeing the movie Saving Private Ryan while his family was on the run and hiding from the FBI...

Oh yeah.. thats because his dad beat his mother (who just died a few years ago to cancer) nearly to death while he was sleeping in the other room. And spoiler alert - they obviously found his Dad and jailed him eventually.. Lets not pretend like we can easily quantify what kind of mental toll that takes on a person.....

As someone who lost his mother to cancer a few years back (single mom/only child duo) - I can tell you the 2 years leading up to her passing away were just as hard (probably even more distracting tbh) than the 2 years since her passing have been. And while everyone is different, I can say that it impacted my work and personal life in some very, very real ways.

BUT - what we can easily quantify is Bobby's ridiculously bad luck with injuries to his hands and fingers. It was like a reoccurring SNL comedy routine or something with his hands and fingers, and each time it was something new that got them.

The poor bastard had at least 4 or 5 completely separate and total freak accidents to his hands after his first two seasons with the Sens (which were good ones in reality). And he was routinely getting hands and fingers injected and put to sleep in between periods so that he could continue the game. And anyone whos played hockey with a hand injury knows how badly that affects your game and ability to make finesse/offensive plays. Just receiving a pass with these composite sticks sends a jolt through your whole body, never mind shooting and digging for loose pucks in a battle...Hockey players need their hands just as badly as a tennis player or golfer does, true story.

Yes its true that his skating eventually caught up with him, and he could no longer be an elite 1st liner at that point.

But anyone who followed Bobby and his career will tell you that its not skating that took him down to this level so quickly. His talent was more than enough for him to coast through as a 40-50pt guy for his career (had the rest not taken so much away from him at the same time). Whereas JVR in the best case scenario possible was still at his peak a 50-60pt player. He had nothing more to give than that at any point, imo.

 

[Gurglesons]

Totally unfair imo. This is a guy that we should literally be calling Bobby Stevenson right now - not Bobby Ryan - which is his assumed alias that he took after seeing the movie Saving Private Ryan while his family was on the run and hiding in California from the FBI...

Oh yeah.. thats because his dad beat his mother (who just died a few years ago to cancer) nearly to death while he was sleeping in the other room. And spoiler alert - they obviously found his Dad and jailed him eventually.. Lets not pretend like we can easily quantify what kind of mental toll that takes on a person.....

As someone who lost his mother to cancer a few years back (single mom/only child duo) - I can tell you the 2 years leading up to her passing away were just as hard (probably even more distracting tbh) than the 2 years since her passing have been. And while everyone is different, I can say that it impacted my work and personal life in some very, very real ways.

BUT - what we can easily quantify is Bobby's ridiculously bad luck with injuries to his hands and fingers. It was like a reoccurring SNL comedy routine or something with his hands and fingers, and each time it was something new that got them.

The poor bastard had at least 4 or 5 completely separate and total freak accidents to his hands after his first two seasons with the Sens (which were good ones in reality). And he was routinely getting hands and fingers injected and put to sleep in between periods so that he could continue the game. And anyone whos played hockey with a hand injury knows how badly that affects your game and ability to make finesse/offensive plays. Just receiving a pass with these composite sticks sends a jolt through your whole body, never mind shooting and digging for loose pucks in a battle...Hockey players need their hands just as badly as a tennis player or golfer does, true story.

Yes its true that his skating eventually caught up with him, and he could no longer be an elite 1st liner at that point.

But anyone who followed Bobby and his career will tell you that its not skating that took him down to this level so quickly. His talent was more than enough for him to coast through as a 40-50pt guy for his career (had the rest not taken so much away from him at the same time). Whereas JVR in the best case scenario possible was still at his peak a 50-60pt player. He had nothing more to give than that at any point, imo.

I guess my point is Ryan seemed to overcome his demons from a play standpoint. His play slipped because of the league becoming faster.

 

[Samsquanch]

I guess my point is Ryan seemed to overcome his demons from a play standpoint. His play slipped because of the league becoming faster.

How did you come to that conclusion?

As I said he lost his mother 3 years ago - and from personal experience, the battle with cancer leading up to the passing of a loved one is the most distracting part.

And then he entered the NHL substance abuse program last year in the 2019-2020 season at the age of 33?

Im no psychologist, but that doesnt sound like the actions of a man that was playing with a full deck of cards these last few seasons, or a guy thats really conquered some serious childhood demons (that coincidentally also involved his recently deceased mother)... And I think it would be more than fair to say that Ryan has been compromised both mentally and physically the last 4 or 5 seasons. Hiding a wound is a much different thing than healing it.


-54pts in 2015
-56pts in 2016
-injuries/Sens MVP at fwd in 2017 playoffs
-life problems/reality sets in
-covid
-present day

Im going with my theory, the league was still plenty fast in 2017 when he was easily then Sens best forward leading up to double OT in game 7 of the ECF.. He didnt fade away never to be seen again after he went from being an average skater to a slow one. He was slow by the time that he arrived in Ottawa.

But I guess that only Bobby really knows why he declined so badly at the end of the day, and whether or not his life outside of hockey was the main reason.

 

[Gurglesons]

How did you come to that conclusion?

As I said he lost his mother 3 years ago - and from personal experience, the battle with cancer leading up to the passing of a loved one is the most distracting part.

And then he entered the NHL substance abuse program last year in the 2019-2020 season at the age of 33?

Im no psychologist, but that doesnt sound like the actions of a man that was playing with a full deck of cards these last few seasons, or a guy thats really conquered some serious childhood demons (that coincidentally also involved his recently deceased mother)... And I think it would be more than fair to say that Ryan has been compromised both mentally and physically the last 4 or 5 seasons. Hiding a wound is a much different thing than healing it.


-54pts in 2015
-56pts in 2016
-injuries/Sens MVP at fwd in 2017 playoffs
-life problems/reality sets in
-covid
-present day

Im going with my theory, the league was still plenty fast in 2017 when he was easily then Sens best forward leading up to double OT in game 7 of the ECF.. He didnt fade away never to be seen again after he went from being an average skater to a slow one. He was slow by the time that he arrived in Ottawa.

But I guess that only Bobby really knows why he declined so badly at the end of the day, and whether or not his life outside of hockey was the main reason.

Bobby Ryan was the best forward in the Sens 2017 run? Hm. As a fan that went 7 games with them I don’t agree, but obviously you are a big fan of his.

I’m not trying to read any more paragraphs from you. I just feel like Bobby Ryan showed he could be a great forward in ANA and OTT and his game just aged out. If you want to build a narrative around his life that’s on you.

 

[JungleBeat]

Ryan was probably one of the softest players with the puck I’ve ever seen on the Sens, terrible skater with no balance as well.

 

[Samsquanch]

Bobby Ryan was the best forward in the Sens 2017 run? Hm. As a fan that went 7 games with them I don’t agree, but obviously you are a big fan of his.

I’m not trying to read any more paragraphs from you. I just feel like Bobby Ryan showed he could be a great forward in ANA and OTT and his game just aged out. If you want to build a narrative around his life that’s on you.

Lmfao ok then, one line it is.

You have no idea what your talking about. Good to know

 

[Samsquanch]

Ryan was probably one of the softest players with the puck I’ve ever seen on the Sens, terrible skater with no balance as well.

176pts

266pts

These are the totals of two players that were on the Sens since Bobby joined the team. One of them might get a statue one day if some fans had it their way. The other is Bobby. Guess who is who.

Yes his salary was a lighting rod for criticism. But his shortcomings. much like Spezza's were, are hugely over exaggerated by a portion of Sens fans.

A pissed off Bobby Ryan was like a bull in a China Shop. He might have fell down a lot - but then so did the other guy that he was making contact with.

 

[ESH]

176pts

266pts

These are the totals of two players that were on the Sens since Bobby joined the team. One of them might get a statue one day if some fans had it their way. The other is Bobby. Guess who is who.

Yes his salary was a lighting rod for criticism. But his shortcomings. much like Spezza's were, are hugely over exaggerated by a portion of Sens fans.

A pissed off Bobby Ryan was like a bull in a China Shop. He might have fell down a lot - but then so did the other guy that he was making contact with.

Alright we get it, you really like Bobby Ryan

 

[Voight]

Ryan's production went down once he stopped playing on the same line as Getzlaf. Good player, but fell off when he couldn't ride his coattails anymore.

Went with JVR here.

Bobby Ryan had the better peak.

JVR more consistent career.

imo

I feel like the alcohol thing might be an excuse for Ryan’s sudden downfall, but in reality I think it was the fact the league got extremely fast from 2014 onward.

More likely it has to do with him leaving Getz's wing.

 

[JungleBeat]

176pts

266pts

These are the totals of two players that were on the Sens since Bobby joined the team. One of them might get a statue one day if some fans had it their way. The other is Bobby. Guess who is who.

Yes his salary was a lighting rod for criticism. But his shortcomings. much like Spezza's were, are hugely over exaggerated by a portion of Sens fans.

A pissed off Bobby Ryan was like a bull in a China Shop. He might have fell down a lot - but then so did the other guy that he was making contact with.

Spezza actually made his line mates better. Ryan was a total anchor and suppressed a young Zibanejad and made him do all the heavy lifting in the defensive end.

 

[biturbo19]

I like it bud, thanks! And while obviously that was my "slant" in the post - Bobby is the right answer for the exact reasons you just highlighted.

But Im sure there is a younger portion of the hockey world that will have only seen that JVR has pretty much been the better player of the two for the last 6 or 7 seasons, and would just assume that he is obviously the right answer.

Having said that, I thought it was a good idea for a poll considering the fact that they were both 2nd OV American born wingers with 0.65ppg average (yet got those points very differently) - but apparently not many people are interested in this question...

Oh, it's absolutely an interesting idea for a poll. As two 2nd Overalls who never really quite lived up to the billing, but were also still very good players, and far from "total busts". And it also has that interesting compiler vs peak element to it. Votes certainly reflect that opinions are pretty split on it.

Just for me...what you said about Bobby's peak, pretty much sums up why i'd go with him here.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Philly really got shafted in the 07 draft. Imagine how different their team would've looked with Kane. The same Kane who broke the hearts of 21,000 fans three years later.

But...I'd say when both were at their very best, Ryan was better. Overall career--JVR.

Both dissapointments for their draft position. Both the number two pick after a generational star and a first ballot HOF lock respectively.

 

[LeProspector]

Philly really got shafted in the 07 draft. Imagine how different their team would've looked with Kane. The same Kane who broke the hearts of 21,000 fans three years later.

But...I'd say when both were at their very best, Ryan was better. Overall career--JVR.

Both dissapointments for their draft position. Both the number two pick after a generational star and a first ballot HOF lock respectively.

I disagree with this, for Ryan the only other players that were in the range of #2 overall at the time of the draft that have looked like better players are Price (Anaheim had Giguere and Bryzgalov) They didn't need a goalie, and Kopitar. Solid #2 pick in all honesty, they could've done MUCH worse, i'm sure Anaheim isn't disappointed whatsoever.

As for JVR, he's right in that group of Couture, Voracek and Patches, Benn and Perron as second best forward of that draft. Another Solid #2 pick, doubt Philly is disappointed with the selection

 

[Xspyrit]

Bobby Ryan was the best forward in the Sens 2017 run? Hm. As a fan that went 7 games with them I don’t agree, but obviously you are a big fan of his.

I’m not trying to read any more paragraphs from you. I just feel like Bobby Ryan showed he could be a great forward in ANA and OTT and his game just aged out. If you want to build a narrative around his life that’s on you.

I don't think there's much of a debate for that, even if you ask (most) Ryan haters

He was more productive than any other forward but also in the manner he did it, scoring many game winning goals (3 GWG, including 2 in OT) and with several key plays, like body checks, blocked shots, back-checks, or primary assists, like those 2 who particularly impressed me (even though the 2nd one was in a lost cause) :





That being said, yes "his game just aged out", he's 34 y/o now and has had a lot of injuries and personal problems. He ended up not living to his contract in Ottawa but still was a good/decent player for them all the way scoring at 0.5-07 PPG every season. Would have been better if he could have stayed away from the infirmary a bit

Some will try to paint as if he was a total liability but I don't know how much of that is rational. From 2013-14 to 2015-16 (+2017 playoffs), he was still quite productive. As his role changed and his production dropped later on, he still continued to produce at around ~0.50-0.55 PPG in his last 3 seasons and his advanced stats don't suggest he was "an awful player"