Bobby Hull: Ambassador for hockey?

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"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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To steer the discussion towards people I have studied and really admire even if some were before my time:

Syl Apps
-It's harder to find in depth analysis of the true quality players/men once you start getting into the pre-O6 era but Apps has a good deal written about his character as a person. Just one tidbit I've found:
"Apps had more to do with the image the Leafs in the 1940s as Canada's team - the good guys, the very good guys - than any other player," author Jack Batten wrote in his book "The Leafs in Autumn." "He looked so dashing on the ice, all that speed and skill. And off the ice, he was the last word in pure vessels, a teetotaler, a non-smoker, a Baptist steeped in moral propriety, the model team captain."


Gordie Howe
-Seriously, is there any dirt on Howe? For as rough as he was as a player, he seemingly was a genuinely great man off it. Superstar, known coast to coast, all I've ever seen written about Howe in terms of his class away from the game was positive.

Jean Beliveau
-The gold standard.

Bobby Orr
-Another guy that was nothing but class off the ice.
Orr has been known to be fiercely loyal to former Bruin personnel and teammates. When Derek Sanderson had alcohol and prescription drug-abuse problems and wound up penniless, Orr spent his own money to ensure that Sanderson successfully completed rehab. Decades later, Orr and Sanderson went into business together managing finances for hockey players. Orr also helped out Bruins trainer John (Frosty) Forristall, his roommate during his first years with the Bruins, who had just been fired from the Tampa Bay Lightning for alcoholism in 1994. Forristall's drinking put him on bad terms with his brother John, so he returned to Boston jobless and soon afterwards was diagnosed with brain cancer. Orr took Forristall into his home for a year until he died at the age of 51. Orr was a pallbearer at his funeral.[135]

Orr is also well known for his charitable works, although he kept mention of them out of the press. Former Eagle-Tribune writer Russ Conway noted of one occasion when Orr and Conway visited Boston Children's Hospital, with a box of programs, pennants, pucks, pictures and Boston memorabilia: "We went from room to room, Orr popping in, unannounced to visit the kids. Some couldn't believe their eyes; sick as they were, they laughed in astonishment and delight. Bobby Orr! He talked and joked with every one of them, asking names, rubbing heads, giving everybody a little present from the box, leaving a stick, autographing everything in sight." Orr made Conway promise to not print a word in the newspaper. Orr was involved in numerous charity fund raisers.[136] In 1980, Orr was awarded the Multiple Sclerosis Silver Hope Chest Award by the Multiple Sclerosis Society for his "numerous and unselfish contributions to society".[137]

Ray Bourque
-Superstar on and off the ice. Humble, reserved and a quality human being.

Nicklas Lidstrom
-Maybe the quietest and unassuming superstar of all time. You'll never find anyone having a bad thing to say about the player or man.

Ron Francis
Joe Sakic
Shane Doan
Sidney Crosby
 

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"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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I know what abuse can do to you too, first hand. What now?

Maybe you didn't make a conscious choice when you brought up how you were raised, but that's what it meant. There's no way around it and by simply stating you didn't mean it doesn't somehow absolve you. You wrote it in a way that could only be interpreted one way. Then you got all defensive when people called you on it. That's what happened. People didn't get triggered, they called you on your BS moral pedestal. There's a big difference.

I don't fail to grasp anything from your writing. It's not that in depth nor is it that hard to dissect. It's fine that you don't like Hull because of what he did and allegedly did. Neither do I. But that doesn't give me or you the right to act all high and mighty when someone doesn't think his personal life effects his stature as hockey great. But that's what you did. You made it perfectly clear that you consider your values better and anyone who disagrees with your POV is not taking the issues of domestic violence seriously. The fact that you can't see this is astonishing to me. And about as arrogant as it gets.

Wrong. Flat out wrong.

I questioned Hull's ability to be viewed as an ambassador for hockey. Never once did I say his personal life should be used to hurt his stature as a hockey player. Again, I say, you need to go back and read what I wrote in full. People seem to be conflating the two and say I'm attacking both.

Also, simply bringing up my own life experiences does not make me arrogant. It makes my position on the abuse of women more relevant and would enlighten people as to the reasons why I may be offended that people think Hull a great ambassador for hockey...more so than somebody who doesn't have real world experience with the topic. But that doesn't make me "better" or some moral authority. Assuming that's what I meant is the real arrogance to be quite frank.

It'd be the same thing as a military "expert" who's read many books and studied the history of war but never been involved in one, trying to relate and speak on the same plane as a man (or woman) who was actually in war and felt the realities and horror that comes with it. It's not arrogance. It's perspective.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Counterpoints

To steer the discussion towards people I have studied and really admire even if some were before my time:

Syl Apps
-It's harder to find in depth analysis of the true quality players/men once you start getting into the pre-O6 era but Apps has a good deal written about his character as a person. Just one tidbit I've found:



Gordie Howe
-Seriously, is there any dirt on Howe? For as rough as he was as a player, he seemingly was a genuinely great man off it. Superstar, known coast to coast, all I've ever seen written about Howe in terms of his class away from the game was positive.

Jean Beliveau
-The gold standard.

Bobby Orr
-Another guy that was nothing but class off the ice.


Ray Bourque
-Superstar on and off the ice. Humble, reserved and a quality human being.

Nicklas Lidstrom
-Maybe the quietest and unassuming superstar of all time. You'll never find anyone having a bad thing to say about the player or man.

Ron Francis
Joe Sakic
Shane Doan
Sidney Crosby

All had the benefit of opposites.

Apps had Conn Smythe - beat them in the alley.

Howe had Ted Lindsay and Jack Adams. Could go on and on about the others down to Sakic with Patrick Roy and Bob Hartley.

Just a question of recognizing these relationships.
 

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"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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All had the benefit of opposites.

Apps had Conn Smythe - beat them in the alley.

Howe had Ted Lindsay and Jack Adams. Could go on and on about the others down to Sakic with Patrick Roy and Bob Hartley.

Just a question of recognizing these relationships.

True, but I'm referring more to the off ice character those guys had/have. How they conducted themselves away from the game.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428
... Hull on-ice performance made him an ambassador, because it's not like people in Chicago were purchasing tickets to watch Elmer Vasko.
What? :rant: Moose Vasko! The Norris trophy finalist and back-to-back 2nd team all-star defenseman and later Blackhawks captain. I think some got their money's worth watching him play!

4818-141Fr.jpg


ATD 2012 bio said:
- ''I used to think they were booing me. Now I know they want me to go out and do my best. It's great to be wanted!'' - Elmer Vasko, on fans chanting 'Mooooose' everytime he went rushing the puck

Legends of Hockey said:
At 6'3" Vasko was a huge man for his time. The Chicago fans likened his up-ice charges to that of a moose... He was partnered with Pierre Pilote to form one of the toughest defensive tandems in the league.

Total Hockey said:
Vasko reached the NHL in 1956-57 and at 6'2'', 200 pounds he was one of the biggest player in the league. His size and strength made him a solid, and popular, defenceman.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,667
16,392
What? :rant: Moose Vasko! The Norris trophy finalist and back-to-back 2nd team all-star defenseman and later Blackhawks captain. I think some got their money's worth watching him play!

4818-141Fr.jpg

....Yeah. Not really, and not the point I was making either.

Substitute Doug Jarrett to Elmer Vasko if that "fits" better for you.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Exactly

True, but I'm referring more to the off ice character those guys had/have. How they conducted themselves away from the game.

Exactly - applies to off ice as well.

Look at Syl Apps and his political career in the Kingston area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syl_Apps

Lindsay and the start of the NHLPA, leader with Doug Harvey.

and so forth.

Not black and white.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
With regards... he kinda started a thread on Hull's suitability as an Ambassador for hockey, that he was Under no obligation to start (duh).

And Hull's personnal life is probably more than just a bit relevant to this.

Of course, RL issues didn't mean he couldn't be an ambassador. Hell, I'm pretty sure BOB PROBERT was something of an ambassador, too, just not at the same level. And it's probably understood that Hull on-ice performance made him an ambassador, because it's not like people in Chicago were purchasing tickets to watch Elmer Vasko.

Ah, no. I dont believe this thread was in fact started with any "honest intent". Its premise including the very title itself had to be edited due to its subjective & biased nature. hf HOH is not a Bully or Moral Pulpit. So that would be Point Number One.

Point Number Two; yes indeed, of course its relevant. Most people, certainly anyone interested in the history of the game & its' players, coaches, officials, "builders" & so on generally aware of whatever skeletons whomever has hanging in their closets. While its' relevant on one level & mostly of an anecdotal nature, tangentially relevant, its irrelevant to whatever they did on the ice or behind the bench unless it affected their performance. Even then as we'll never know the whole story, cause & effect, who are you, who am I or anyone else to act as a Moral Arbiter, Amateur Psychologists... Judge, Jury & Executioner. And no, thats not a question. Thats policy around here.

As I mentioned up-page every player who's ever donned an NHL jersey, playing 1 game or 1000 is an "Ambassador to the Game of Hockey", and one could further argue that the same could be said for anyone who's ever been an Administrator, GM, Scout, Coach or Player from elite Amateur through NCAA, Junior, Senior including International, Semi-Pro, Minor Pro or Pro be it European Elite, the old WHA or whatever. With players, anyone who ever innately had the talent to play at an appreciable level, indoctrinated, cultivated.... its in their blood, their souls. Bobby Hull as one of the Greatest Players All Time, a guy who changed the game on & off the ice is one of the highest ranking & greatest Ambassadors the games ever seen. And that is an undeniable fact.

Point Number Three; actually MXD ya, people were purchasing tickets to watch Moose Vasko, Eric Nesterenko, Doug Mohns, Kenny Wharram & Chico Maki et al along with the Stars on the club including Stan Mikita, Glenn Hall & Pierre Pilote, a Galaxy of Stars and yes, the brightest on those team's & in the league for a decade +, Bobby Hull. Team Sport. Did some people buy tickets to simply see Hull live & in-person? Of course. Absolutely. The Star of the Show. Face of the NHL, the Future of Hockey. But to suggest the fans in Chicago, Montreal, Toronto, NY, Boston or Detroit, post Expansion in places like St.Louis & Philly in general only bought tickets to watch Hull is to degrade, insult their intelligence and does a huge disservice to players like Vasko & all of the others who were pieces of work unto themselves & who were beyond interesting players to watch. People are buying a "package". Complete "Team".

Finally... I'm not sure what purpose this thread is actually serving anymore. For many and for most of us, we could talk positively about Bobby Hull until the cows home. Our little community here on HOH peppered as it is with mature, knowledgeable, astute & wholly objective Members who separate Church from State. Have the life experience & wisdom, understanding that yes, our Hero's are flawed, that its sad, but that if the sinner seeks redemption while not entirely forgiving let alone approving of whatever peccadilloes.... they themselves having experienced much in life themselves the human condition such, that **** happens sometimes, a person the product of their upbringing, times & conditions.... none of us Saints & if honest, with regrets... then that should be the end of it.

There are just countless examples of sports figures, entertainers, political & military leaders etc who have committed far worse crimes than Bobby Hull ever did. That this thread setup almost a "banquet" upon which one should feast on the dark past of so seminal and important an individual... its just saddens me. These are old wounds. Hull has acknowledged through words & deeds that no one is more harsh a judge of himself & of his actions (as we all should be in dealing with our own ****). Turned the page. Never forgotten, doesnt seek forgiveness. But in living the life he has, in giving all he has back to the game & to the fans he has & will continue to atone for his transgressions.

And thats it. If you dont like it? Too bad so sad. But this All You Can Eat of Bobby Hull Buffet is about to CLOSE. Rather than feasting on the corpse of past transgressions that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Bobby Hull the hockey player on the ice & what he accomplished, and if anyone cant get their head around & beyond his troubled off-ice life, that his life & times should be celebrated (without whitewashing) then this is not the thread for you to be posting on.... I'll give it a bit more time... leave it open for a bit but if this thread keeps spiraling the drain then were done here. This is getting way off topic, our core mandate, mission statement of hf HOH.

BE WARNED.
Think twice before you hit send.
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,775
7,802
Oblivion Express
The moral of the story is that most seem to think that what goes on away from the rink has no/little bearing to being thought of as a great ambassador for hockey.

How you act and carry yourself away from the game says as much if not more about being an ambassador in my book (As I showed with examples of superstars above), but we'll just all agree to disagree I guess.

Next.
 

Kant Think

Chaotic Neutral
Aug 30, 2007
1,191
143
Gatineau
To steer the discussion towards people I have studied and really admire even if some were before my time:

Syl Apps
-It's harder to find in depth analysis of the true quality players/men once you start getting into the pre-O6 era but Apps has a good deal written about his character as a person. Just one tidbit I've found:



Gordie Howe
-Seriously, is there any dirt on Howe? For as rough as he was as a player, he seemingly was a genuinely great man off it. Superstar, known coast to coast, all I've ever seen written about Howe in terms of his class away from the game was positive.

Jean Beliveau
-The gold standard.

Bobby Orr
-Another guy that was nothing but class off the ice.


Ray Bourque
-Superstar on and off the ice. Humble, reserved and a quality human being.

Nicklas Lidstrom
-Maybe the quietest and unassuming superstar of all time. You'll never find anyone having a bad thing to say about the player or man.

Ron Francis
Joe Sakic
Shane Doan
Sidney Crosby

You really shouldn't believe everything you read.

[Mod]

The sad truth is that what we know and what is are seldom similar.

And therefore, I stopped caring about such things a while ago.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
The moral of the story is that most seem to think that what goes on away from the rink has no/little bearing to being thought of as a great ambassador for hockey.

How you act and carry yourself away from the game says as much if not more about being an ambassador in my book (As I showed with examples of superstars above), but we'll just all agree to disagree I guess.

Next.

Yes we will agree to disagree and unfortunately you fail to grasp the entirety of just exactly what it is we fail to agree on.

There will be no "next" on this topic however if you'd like to start a thread Celebrating the Career of Bobby Hull I'm sure the
Membership would be most supportive of such efforts.

CLOSED
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,538
4,911
The moral of the story is that most seem to think that what goes on away from the rink has no/little bearing to being thought of as a great ambassador for hockey.

How you act and carry yourself away from the game says as much if not more about being an ambassador in my book (As I showed with examples of superstars above), but we'll just all agree to disagree I guess.

Next.

These are fair closing remarks. I don't think there is anything left to discuss here.
 
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