TSN: Bob McKenzie on Insider Trading: Leafs have preliminary contract talks with Jake Muzzin

nuck

Schrodingers Cat
Aug 18, 2005
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Derms has played right side since he was a kid. And in junior and with Marlies. This is not even a big deal. That was Babs talk. No issue here.

But you have to admit he has not been particularly good this year. Sandin has probably leapfrogged him as the young LD that will get third pairing minutes next year and I think Lily is really close to being ready next season so he doesn't have an ideal spot, even if you think he is as effective on the right as the left. Add Barrie going out for a legit top 4 two way RD and he falls to #7 next season.

If they have no actual interest in adding a different top 4 RD and are going to maybe run Lily, Holl and Dermott next season he has a place but that is at best case a really risky gamble.

I agree with the consensus here that we can't go over 3 years or above 5.5 aav. If he walks I'm ok with that. I like the player, but our left side will be fine without him starting next season.

I don't think he would sign for three years. I think Stralman did because he is 33 and wanted to stay in Florida more than he wanted to win anything but at age 31 he would have expected four or five years. Getting a 30+ guy with any game left on a short deal is really rare. They would be fortunate to get Muzz for four. Taking Alex P out of the mix what are the UFA options? Not many younger UFA defenseman that will throw a hit so that would create a void the club can't really want.
 
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Leafsfan74

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Jul 2, 2018
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They need him at a fair price and a trade of prospects or two for another solid D man to help with a playoff push. I'm sure Dubas can get creative with the contract. That's what big money teams who are always going to be near the cap do. Find a way to make things fit.

There is even rumblings of Muzzins old mate Martinez being available. You get him for two years in his early 30's, which is prime for a D man and L.A might even eat some salary. Both guys have been paired up on a far less talented team, and, both eat big minutes. We absolutely have to get some shutdown pairings to deal with the talent in our conference and we don't have cap room to get a franchise D man even if they were available.

I think this is the year to shed a prospect or two to ensure you get into the playoffs with a deeper, more ready team than in the past few playoffs. They need to get in first, it will be a battle.
 

KuleminFan41

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Jan 5, 2009
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That contract can turn awfully bad awfully quick. Also vastly reduces our chances of getting Pietrangelo.
I'm not sure why people think there's going to be room for Pietrangelo . He's going to be extremely expensive if he makes it to the open market, which causes a ton of issues to the Leafs for the future. Even if the cap goes up(which it will), the Leafs will still have to sign Rielly, Sandin and potentially Liljegren in the summer of 2022 and do you really believe Rielly is going to only want a marginal increase to his contract? Especially if Pietrangelo comes in at 9+ million? If you bring him in, it wont be on a short term deal either and as he's already 30(in a couple days) it likely wont be worth committing to long term when that money can be used towards rounding out the blueline more. I understand the appeal of Pietrangelo , but signing him could end up causing more harm than good, which doesn't sound possible but it is.
 

Joey Hoser

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I'm not sure why people think there's going to be room for Pietrangelo . He's going to be extremely expensive if he makes it to the open market, which causes a ton of issues to the Leafs for the future. Even if the cap goes up(which it will), the Leafs will still have to sign Rielly, Sandin and potentially Liljegren in the summer of 2022 and do you really believe Rielly is going to only want a marginal increase to his contract? Especially if Pietrangelo comes in at 9+ million? If you bring him in, it wont be on a short term deal either and as he's already 30(in a couple days) it likely wont be worth committing to long term when that money can be used towards rounding out the blueline more. I understand the appeal of Pietrangelo , but signing him could end up causing more harm than good, which doesn't sound possible but it is.

The Leafs are at the cap, but they aren't handcuffed by bad contracts in any way. They can move anyone and receive relatively good value to make the space, if it makes sense. People can complain about overpayments all they want, but the Leafs have basically 100% flexibility and can do whatever they want.

I mean, if he needs 9x7, then that's probably just not going to work, but it might not have to be that.
 
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Kurtz

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I'm not sure why people think there's going to be room for Pietrangelo . He's going to be extremely expensive if he makes it to the open market, which causes a ton of issues to the Leafs for the future. Even if the cap goes up(which it will), the Leafs will still have to sign Rielly, Sandin and potentially Liljegren in the summer of 2022 and do you really believe Rielly is going to only want a marginal increase to his contract? Especially if Pietrangelo comes in at 9+ million? If you bring him in, it wont be on a short term deal either and as he's already 30(in a couple days) it likely wont be worth committing to long term when that money can be used towards rounding out the blueline more. I understand the appeal of Pietrangelo , but signing him could end up causing more harm than good, which doesn't sound possible but it is.

Fair points. The way I look at it is we're currently paying $12 mil for Muzzin+Ceci+Barrie. For that same $12 mil we can have Pietrangelo+Sandin+Lil next year.

Beyond that, the new NHL TV deal will kick in, and if we look at what happened to NBA's salary cap when they got their new tv deal 4 years ago - the cap jumped from $70 mil to $90+ mil in a single off-season. I'm hoping that whatever jump happens in the NHL will be enough to re-sign our RFAs and UFAs like Freddie and Morgan at that point. But certainly, we'll have to make some tough decisions at that point.
 

Menzinger

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Good. Though ideally they will go for shorter term (say 4 years at a higher aav).

And give him a bonus heavy deal that pays next to nothing in real dollars over the last yesr or two as well and there becomes very little risk involved
 

nuck

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Fair points. The way I look at it is we're currently paying $12 mil for Muzzin+Ceci+Barrie. For that same $12 mil we can have Pietrangelo+Sandin+Lil next year.

Beyond that, the new NHL TV deal will kick in, and if we look at what happened to NBA's salary cap when they got their new tv deal 4 years ago - the cap jumped from $70 mil to $90+ mil in a single off-season. I'm hoping that whatever jump happens in the NHL will be enough to re-sign our RFAs and UFAs like Freddie and Morgan at that point. But certainly, we'll have to make some tough decisions at that point.

The Leafs may not have any interest in AP. He will be expensive, will want 7 years plus a NM so the term will likely last well into his decline. Plus it would make Dermott the club's only remotely physical D man and TD may be end up on the 3rd pairing. Pietrangelo is not at all Drew Doughty in the contact department.

It could also be that they have to decide between spending money and assets on a legit top 4 guy right now to maximize their window, vs trying to make that splash this summer when they don't really know if Pietrangelo will even be interested. I think they would spend it now, and I don't think they will concentrate on an expiring deal to make AP more affordable, they will get the guy they can with most likely win with. I also think they would be very apprehensive about adding yet another big dollar deal.

Having said all that, if he is potentially signable for under $10M then AJ, Barrie and Ceci are $10.6M so things could be in the realm of possible even with Muzzin retained.
 
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Ratboy

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Jul 15, 2009
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He brings an element our D needs. But these types of players rarely have fast footspeed. We need his type more than barrie. Perhaps that's what management is thinking.
 
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Canada4Gold

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Some of the number thrown out in this thread are hilarious. Now I understand why the Barrie v. Muzzin thread was so lopsided. People think they can get Muzzin for 2 million and 2 years less than he'll probably sign for on the open market. He's going to get 5-6 years for at least 6 million, and it'll be a Karl Alzner contract within 2 years. No thanks.
 
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Canada4Gold

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Barrie will be a UFA. They would be crazy to sign him with Liljegren ready. Sandin and Liljegren will be a solid young pair for us in protected minutes if they choose. Personally i think they might be excellent in a more responsibility type roll.

Sandin is poised as Kaberle was his rookie season type level from what I’m seeing ha. Give these guys a few years and we have more cap strain coming in a couple years.

Maybe Liljegren only getting 9 games before the playoffs is something the team is really struggling with on a forward looking decision. Lets say Liljegren is ready and they bring him in now with Sandin, its cap difficulties big time in three years. Better to have them spread out a year is likely a better decision.

Muzzy over Barrie is the need for us. I am glad they are going that way to sign Muzzy if true.

Liljegren is 20, his contract has already started, he's RFA in the summer of 2022 regardless, whether he plays 0 games before then or 200.
 

Luminiferous

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Oct 11, 2018
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He should find a new team. Really like his game, but in 4 or 5 years I don't think he will be beneficial. Let him become an overpayed player on another team, in this strange league where you earn big money based off past prosperity.
 
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KuleminFan41

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The Leafs are at the cap, but they aren't handcuffed by bad contracts in any way. They can move anyone and receive relatively good value to make the space, if it makes sense. People can complain about overpayments all they want, but the Leafs have basically 100% flexibility and can do whatever they want.

I mean, if he needs 9x7, then that's probably just not going to work, but it might not have to be that.
I'm not saying the Leafs are handcuffed, but they could by giving out a massive contract to Pietrangelo . Yes, they could make moves, but you end up hurting your depth just to give a guy a massive overpayment . There's absolutely no way Pietrangelo comes to the Leafs on a sweet heart deal and I don't want the team to be gutted just to make him fit. There are going to be guys out there that, while not as good as him, will be better suited. An added bonus is having a guy who isn't goign to make significantly more money than Rielly , lessens the chances of him asking for a significant pay increase in a couple years.


Fair points. The way I look at it is we're currently paying $12 mil for Muzzin+Ceci+Barrie. For that same $12 mil we can have Pietrangelo+Sandin+Lil next year.

Beyond that, the new NHL TV deal will kick in, and if we look at what happened to NBA's salary cap when they got their new tv deal 4 years ago - the cap jumped from $70 mil to $90+ mil in a single off-season. I'm hoping that whatever jump happens in the NHL will be enough to re-sign our RFAs and UFAs like Freddie and Morgan at that point. But certainly, we'll have to make some tough decisions at that point.
You also can't forget they have to sign Dermott too and there are reports of the Leafs wanting to retain Muzzin. People are banking a bit too much on Sandin and Liljegren playing well out of the gate in my opinion. The Leafs have a lot of pressure as it is and we don't know where things will go after the playoffs, if the Leafs even make it this season. To basically put 2 rookie defenseman out there who come with high expectations as is, on a cup contending team at the same time, could be a recipe for disaster. There's no hurry to bring up both of them together at the same time like people want. Another year for Sandin or Liljegren isn't going to hurt their development in my opinion

I've said it in the past, the deals for the big 3 aren't going to look nearly as "bad" in a couple years because of the cap potentially reaching 100 million but the Leafs can't be making deals based on what they think the cap may look like in a few years. I'd rather not potentially handcuff the team now by potentially signing a big ticket UFA while being forced to trade away depth to compensate, which could hurt the team in the short term .
 

Canada4Gold

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Dec 22, 2010
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I don't think there's any coincidence this and the Barrie thing came out on the same day. The Leafs likely have very preliminary talks with both guys just to see what kinds of numbers they might be looking at, Barrie's number was way too high so the Leafs leaked they were negotiating with Muzzin to pressure that down, Barrie's side leaks they love Toronto to pressure Toronto's number up. The guy who Barrie's agent leaked that to goes to Dubas for a comment and Dubas tells him Barrie's number was 8 to get the fanbase on their side.
 

Walshy7

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Sep 18, 2016
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Sign tanev
Sign muzzin
Trade dermott

Rielly. Tanev
Muzzin lily
Sandin. Holl

As muzzin and tanevs contracts expire sandin and lily move up

what year are you living in? Tanev isn’t close to a top pair d anymore, barely even a top 4 one if at all
 

Morbo

The Annihilator
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Pretty sure this is just a formality at this point. A lot of questions need to be answered before we sign him or anybody to significant dollars.
 

Rare Jewel

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Pretty sure this is just a formality at this point. A lot of questions need to be answered before we sign him or anybody to significant dollars.

Possibly yeah.

I still look at the Spurgeon contract that was recently done and in terms of numbers, you can make a case for him asking for around that. Which makes it makes it very unlikely.

I think trying to find a younger defenceman that's like Muzzin is the way to go.
 

JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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I don't think there's any coincidence this and the Barrie thing came out on the same day. The Leafs likely have very preliminary talks with both guys just to see what kinds of numbers they might be looking at, Barrie's number was way too high so the Leafs leaked they were negotiating with Muzzin to pressure that down, Barrie's side leaks they love Toronto to pressure Toronto's number up. The guy who Barrie's agent leaked that to goes to Dubas for a comment and Dubas tells him Barrie's number was 8 to get the fanbase on their side.
Barrie did same thing in Colorado. He was very clear to all. He wanted 8M per. and sakic said no way. and Dubie knows all this already so there is no need to even ask them to repeat same song and dance. So Sakic did smart thing and tried to unload him for a 2nd line centre which he did. We got back Kerfoot and bottom line he is a weak 3rd line centre at best. Now that Engval can play above him at much cheaper rate I expect Kerfoot to go this summer. and Barrie will go about his merry way this summer to try to realize his ferry tale dream. So we are likely to end up losing Kadri for not much unless we can turn Barrie into a 1st rounder next year.
 
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Al14

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Jul 13, 2007
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what year are you living in? Tanev isn’t close to a top pair d anymore, barely even a top 4 one if at all
Also, don't forget that Tanev is injury prone, so, not a good investment at all.

I'm so sick of posters that suggest trading for this player!
 
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Al14

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Jul 13, 2007
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Barrie did same thing in Colorado. He was very clear to all. He wanted 8M per. and sakic said no way. and Dubie knows all this already so there is no need to even ask them to repeat same song and dance. So Sakic did smart thing and tried to unload him for a 2nd line centre which he did. We got back Kerfoot and bottom line he is a weak 3rd line centre at best. Now that Engval can play above him at much cheaper rate I expect Kerfoot to go this summer. and Barrie will go about his merry way this summer to try to realize his ferry tale dream. So we are likely to end up losing Kadri for not much unless we can turn Barrie into a 1st rounder next year.
Even a 1st rounder can end up being a bust, so, it's still possible we end up losing Kadri for nada!
 

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