Bob Gainey speaks: 2005 Draft.

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Kickabrat

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Tom_Benjamin said:
When did they change the US Labour law or the US antitrust law to make this an accurate statement? Are you making this stuff up or do you actually understand how labour and antitrust law applies to sports leagues? Want to explain your position in the context of the antitrust law and the dozen or so cases decided by the courts?

I was not being sarcastic when I said the NHL was not the employer. Each player works for an individual team. These teams are competing businesses. They cannot stick their heads together and make up the rules. It is against the law for competing businesses to fix prices. They can't fix the price of labour either.
Tom
I have read considerably on this, have you? After all you are the one who said Crosby could sue but have still not come up with the grounds or the damages he would sue for.

Let's take your second point first: the NHL is not the employer. You may not have been sarcastic but you were wrong. This is what the NLRB act has to say:
"Associations: These are regarded as a single employer in that the annual business of all association members is totaled to determine whether any of the standards apply." Also, The Act does not cover certain idividuals including independent contractors (which may be what the NHL could try).

As for your first point, the following (taken from the NLRB website) is what I'm basing my opinions on. What are yours based on?
In its statutory assignment, the NLRB has two principal functions: (1) to determine, through secret-ballot elections, the free democratic choice by employees as to whether or not they wish to be represented by a union in dealing with their employers and, if so, by which union; and (2) to prevent and remedy unlawful acts, called unfair labor practices, by either employers or unions.

Unfair Labor Practice Cases
When an unfair labor practice charge is filed, the appropriate field office conducts an investigation to determine whether there is reasonable cause to believe the Act has been violated. If the Regional Director finds reasonable cause to believe a violation of the law has been committed, the Region seeks a voluntary settlement to remedy the alleged violations. If these settlement efforts fail, a formal complaint is issued and the case goes to hearing before an NLRB administrative law judge. The judge issues a written decision, which may be appealed to the Board for a final Agency determination. That final determination is subject to review in the Federal courts. Only about 4 percent of the cases proceed to Board decision.

Section 8(a)(5) makes it illegal for an employer to refuse to bargain in good faith about wages, hours, and other conditions of employment with the representative selected by a majority of the employees in a unit appropriate for collective bargaining. A bargaining representative which seeks to enforce its right concerning an employer under this section must show that it has been designated by a majority of the employees, that the unit is appropriate, and that there has been both a demand that the employer bargain and a refusal by the employer to do so.
Required subjects of bargaining. The duty to bargain covers all matters concerning rates of pay, wages, hours of employment, or other conditions of employment. On "nonmandatory" subjects, the parties are free to bargain and to agree, but neither party may insist on bargaining on such subjects over the objection of the other party.

An employer will be found to have violated Section 8(a)(5) if its conduct in bargaining, viewed in its entirety, indicates that the employer did not negotiate with a good faith intention to reach agreement. However, the employer's good faith is not at issue when its conduct constitutes an out-and-out refusal to bargain on a mandatory subject.

The employer's duty to bargain includes the duty to supply information that is relevant and necessary to allow the employees' representative to bargain intelligently and effectively with respect to wages, hours, and other conditions of employment.
The duty of an employer to bargain includes the duty to refrain from unilateral action, that is, taking action on its own with respect to matters concerning which it is required to bargain, and from making changes in terms and conditions of employment without consulting the employees' representative.

An employer who purchases or otherwise acquires the operations of another may be obligated to recognize and bargain with the union that represented the employees before the business was transferred. In general, these bargaining obligations exist--and the purchaser is termed a successor employer--when there is a substantial continuity in the employing enterprise despite the sale and transfer of the business. Whether the purchaser is a successor employer is dependent on several factors, including the number of employees taken over by the purchasing employer, the similarity in operations and product of the two employers, the manner in which the purchaser integrates the purchased operations into its other operations, and the character of the bargaining relationship and agreement between the union and the original employer.

The NLR Act is not a criminal statute. It is entirely remedial. It is intended to prevent and remedy unfair labor practices, not to punish the person responsible for them. The Board is authorized by Section 10(c) not only to issue a cease-and-desist order, but "to take such affirmative action including reinstatement of employees with or without back pay, as will effectuate the policies of this Act."

The objective of the NLR Act to avoid or reduce industrial strife and protect the public health, safety, and interest, can best be achieved by the parties or those who may become parties to an individual dispute. Voluntary adjustment of differences at the community and local level is almost invariably the speediest, most satisfactory, and longest lasting way of carrying out the objective of the Act.
 

Tom_Benjamin

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Kickabrat said:
I have read considerably on this, have you? After all you are the one who said Crosby could sue but have still not come up with the grounds or the damages he would sue for.

When the NHL does not hold its entry draft in June as per the CBA, the agreement will not apply and, neither, likely, does labour law. Antitrust law will apply and antitrust law will see 30 separate employers trying to restrain the trade in labour. Crosby will file suit under antitrust law but will not ask for damages. The remedy he will seek is the right to negotiate with any or all 30 employers. If hockey teams don't fall all over themselves trying to sign him as soon as the lockout is lifted, he files suit again alleging collusion and claiming millions in damages.

Why did you think any of the stuff you posted was relevant?

Tom
 

Benji Frank

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The draft would be pointless. You can't trade a guy. You can't sign a guy. You can't even talk contract with a guy while the players are locked out. How can you possibly court & then draft a guy into a lockout??

If the lockout is still in effect at season's end, I'm betting the draft will be postponed indefinitely. They might change the age for draft eligibility to 19 or they might agree on having a certain window period to sign FA's (there will be lots once this year's cancelled!!!) and hold the entry draft prior to opening training camps once hockey finally does restart. Right now ,they probably need about 4 weeks to reorganize and have a little training camp. If they cancel this year, it might take 8 weeks or more to put a roster together & have a training camp.... The'll probably move the 45 day booking thing they got now back to 60 fairly soon.......
 

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Tom_Benjamin said:
When the NHL does not hold its entry draft in June as per the CBA, the agreement will not apply and, neither, likely, does labour law. Antitrust law will apply and antitrust law will see 30 separate employers trying to restrain the trade in labour. Crosby will file suit under antitrust law but will not ask for damages. The remedy he will seek is the right to negotiate with any or all 30 employers. If hockey teams don't fall all over themselves trying to sign him as soon as the lockout is lifted, he files suit again alleging collusion and claiming millions in damages.

Why did you think any of the stuff you posted was relevant?

Tom

I don't know if I am missing something or if it was already mentioned and I glossed over it (if so I apologize), but I gotta ask;

What does Crosby have to do about anything?

Until he is drafted, signed or even in negotiations isn't it up to the NHL (speaking in terms of any one of the 30 clubs) to show an interest in him? I don't understand how he can impose his wishes or perceived career expectations on the company he wants to work for.

If no team shows any interest in Crosby until the work stoppage is over, then doesn't it simply mean that he can go sign somewhere else or take his chances of getting his shot at a later date?

YES the kid has garnered alot of attention but it's not a right for him to play in the NHL. Doesn't he have to wait until a club shows interest in him before he can lay any kind of claim? When you look at it in a general sense, he is no different than any other prospect - future or past - that hasn't actually been selected by a club.
 

Digger12

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copperandblue said:
Wether it is cancelled or not, I think this idea has some merit to it anyways....

It does have merit, but I doubt it'll happen. The lawsuits would fly like crazy from south of the border...fear of litigation is why the draft age was lowered to 18 in the first place IMO.
 

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Digger12 said:
It does have merit, but I doubt it'll happen. The lawsuits would fly like crazy from south of the border...fear of litigation is why the draft age was lowered to 18 in the first place IMO.

I am not familiar with it, any simple language explanation as to why?

I actually thought that the draft age was raised from 17 to 18, but I could be wrong...
 

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Tom_Benjamin said:
When the NHL does not hold its entry draft in June as per the CBA, the agreement will not apply and, neither, likely, does labour law. Antitrust law will apply and antitrust law will see 30 separate employers trying to restrain the trade in labour. Crosby will file suit under antitrust law but will not ask for damages. The remedy he will seek is the right to negotiate with any or all 30 employers. If hockey teams don't fall all over themselves trying to sign him as soon as the lockout is lifted, he files suit again alleging collusion and claiming millions in damages.

Why did you think any of the stuff you posted was relevant?

Tom

Hmmm, if what you say is correct, I could be well on my way to being a millionaire...

All I have to do is declare myself eligible for the draft in June, and if I'm not drafted, I can sue the league for restraint of trade... That is a very interesting idea...

It would never work anyway. You have already stated that the NHL can't have a draft because it would be illegal without a valid CBA. How would Crosby be able to sue the NHL for not doing something they can't legally do?

How would any team be able to sign a player to a contract without the CBA being approved? The CBA declares the NHLPA the only representative of the players and all players must be in the union. When the NHL resumes play, there will be a new CBA in place (most likely, unless the players do decertify...). Crosby would need to follow the entry rules spelled out in the CBA in order to play in the NHL, regardless of what contract he may have with anyone else...
 

djhn579

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copperandblue said:
I am not familiar with it, any simple language explanation as to why?

I actually thought that the draft age was raised from 17 to 18, but I could be wrong...

I would have thought the league would actually prefer an entry draft when players were 19 or 20 years old so that they have a better idea of what kind of player they are drafting.

The problem with that though is that the players want to be drafted younger so they have more years to make money, and I think there was a fear that if the draft age was higher, players may sign elsewhere when they were 18 and wouldn't get to NHL at least until those contracts expired.
 

Digger12

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copperandblue said:
I am not familiar with it, any simple language explanation as to why?

I actually thought that the draft age was raised from 17 to 18, but I could be wrong...

Actually, the draft age has gone up and down like a yo-yo over the years.

In '65, it was 18.
In '67, it was raised to 20.
In '74, One 18 year old was allowed to be drafted per team in the first 2 rounds (to combat the WHA's earlier draft age at the time)
In '75, Back up to 20 again for everyone.
In '79, it was lowered to 19.
In '80, it was lowered to 18.

I believe the reason it was finally lowered to 18 was some American lawyer/lawyers making noise about suing the NHL for restraint of trade, or something like that?
 

Jag68Sid87

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I could see the push for the draft age to go back up to 19 in a relatively weak draft year, with no franchise player on the horizon, but not in a year when the 'next one' is supposed to enter the league. That would be tempting fate, and a potential major legal battle over the right of an 18-year-old to earn a living in the highest field of his craft--in my humble opinion.

They don't want to go there, not this year.
 

Kickabrat

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copperandblue said:
What does Crosby have to do about anything?.....
When you look at it in a general sense, he is no different than any other prospect - future or past - that hasn't actually been selected by a club.
djhn579 said:
Hmmm, if what you say is correct, I could be well on my way to being a millionaire......
Thank you copperandblue and gjhn579. Maybe tom will listen to you.


Tom_Benjamin said:
When the NHL does not hold its entry draft in June as per the CBA, the agreement will not apply and, neither, likely, does labour law. Antitrust law will apply and antitrust law will see 30 separate employers trying to restrain the trade in labour. Crosby will file suit under antitrust law but will not ask for damages. The remedy he will seek is the right to negotiate with any or all 30 employers. If hockey teams don't fall all over themselves trying to sign him as soon as the lockout is lifted, he files suit again alleging collusion and claiming millions in damages.
  1. Crosby is a Canadian, works in Canada, lives in Canada. How can he sue in the U.S. under any U.S. law when he has not incurred any damages from anyone or any company in the U.S.?
  2. Again a comment which indicates you have no clue what you are talking about. You don't have to wait until June for the CBA not to apply. It EXPIRED on Sept, 15. It no longer aplies.
  3. How can labor law not apply? Just because the NHL doesn't hold the draft all of a sudden labor law does not apply?
  4. The NLR Act specifically defines what constitutes an Association. The NHL qualifies. It is considered a single employer for purposes of the Act.
  5. Crosby can seek to ask whatever he wants. If the NHL imposes rules or negotiates a new CBA and a 1st year player can only earn $X, it doesn't matter what team signs him, he will only get $X. That's the whole point of this NHL/NHLPA disagreement. He won't get miliions on his first NHL contract.
  6. What collusion? Implementing the owner's last offer will be well within their legal rights if an impass is declared.
 

Tom_Benjamin

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copperandblue said:
I don't know if I am missing something or if it was already mentioned and I glossed over it (if so I apologize), but I gotta ask;

What does Crosby have to do about anything?

It is an interesting twist on the lockout story. I'm surprised the media hasn't picked up on it. I suppose they will if we slide past the date any reasonable season can be played. It is the hard luck of the NHL that they have a franchise player appearing in the year they might lose a season.

The reasoning goes like this (and I'd really like to hear Death from Above's opinion on this:

Antitrust law is trumped by labour law. The entry draft is legal because it is part of a valid negotiated CBA, whether it has expired or not. That CBA says there is to be a draft to be held in June each year. The draft determines what team gets the exclusive negotiating rights to Sidney Crosby, a consensus franchise player and tells Sidney where he will play.

If there is no draft in June, 2005, what is the status of Sidney Crosby? Since the provisions that were in the CBA have been rendered meaningless, isn't any restriction placed on the ability of Sidney Crosby to negotiate with any NHL team a violation of antitrust law? Absent an agreement between the NHL and NHLPA, he should have the right to decide where he will play.

Crosby would sue saying that he has reached the age when he can be signed by an NHL team and that there is not one of the thirty teams in the NHL who would not immediately sign him if they were free to do so. Why aren't they free to do so? What is their legal justification for not doing so? Is the collusion legal?

Tom
 

djhn579

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Tom_Benjamin said:
It is an interesting twist on the lockout story. I'm surprised the media hasn't picked up on it. I suppose they will if we slide past the date any reasonable season can be played. It is the hard luck of the NHL that they have a franchise player appearing in the year they might lose a season.

The reasoning goes like this (and I'd really like to hear Death from Above's opinion on this:

Antitrust law is trumped by labour law. The entry draft is legal because it is part of a valid negotiated CBA, whether it has expired or not. That CBA says there is to be a draft to be held in June each year. The draft determines what team gets the exclusive negotiating rights to Sidney Crosby, a consensus franchise player and tells Sidney where he will play.

If there is no draft in June, 2005, what is the status of Sidney Crosby? Since the provisions that were in the CBA have been rendered meaningless, isn't any restriction placed on the ability of Sidney Crosby to negotiate with any NHL team a violation of antitrust law? Absent an agreement between the NHL and NHLPA, he should have the right to decide where he will play.

Crosby would sue saying that he has reached the age when he can be signed by an NHL team and that there is not one of the thirty teams in the NHL who would not immediately sign him if they were free to do so. Why aren't they free to do so? What is their legal justification for not doing so? Is the collusion legal?

Tom

You can't have it both ways, either the CBA applies or it does not...

If it applies, even though it has expired, this clause is still in effect...

2.1. Recognition. The NHL recognizes the NHLPA as the exclusive bargaining representative of all present and future players employed as such in the League by the Clubs, but not including any other Club employees.

and this still applies...

8.9. Eligibility for Play in the League. No player shall be eligible for play in the League unless he: (I'll leave off all the details, you can read them in the attached link...)



If it doesn't apply, there can be no draft because the CBA is expired...

3.1. Term.


This Agreement is effective retroactive to September 16, 1993, and shall remain in full force and effect until midnight on the 15th day of September, 2004, and shall remain in effect from year to year thereafter unless and until either party shall furnish the other a written notice of termination of this Agreement 120 days prior to the 15th day of September, 2004 or not less than a like period in any year thereafter.


I'll assume that written notice has been given...


http://www.nhlcbanews.com/cba/index.html

And since no one is playing in the NHL right now, and no player can be signed by any club, whether a team owns the rights to that player or not, Crosby has no grounds to sue. He can ply his trade anywhere he wants, but if he wants to play in the NHL, he will have to wait until a new CBA is hammered out.
 

Blind Gardien

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Digger12 said:
Actually, the draft age has gone up and down like a yo-yo over the years.

In '65, it was 18.
In '67, it was raised to 20.
In '74, One 18 year old was allowed to be drafted per team in the first 2 rounds (to combat the WHA's earlier draft age at the time)
In '75, Back up to 20 again for everyone.
In '79, it was lowered to 19.
In '80, it was lowered to 18.

I believe the reason it was finally lowered to 18 was some American lawyer/lawyers making noise about suing the NHL for restraint of trade, or something like that?
I can't remember all the details, but as a Kingston fan, I know there was a big fuss about Ken Linseman as part of the basis for bringing the draft age down to 19 and then 18.

When the WHA and NHL both had the 20-year old draft, the nefarious Birmingham Bulls decided to pick Ken Linseman as a 19-year old in 1977 in the 10th round, despite the rule. (This would be analagous to the proposed stunt of picking Ovechkin with a late round pick in 2003). He wasn't supposed to be eligible for the draft until 1978, but he was a hot prospect who was pegged to go really high, and had gaudy stats (127 pts, 210 pim) in junior in '77. The Bulls were ready to sign him to a contract and put him into the lineup to start the '77-78 season, which got the NHL all up in arms, because he wasn't supposed to be eligible to go pro. But in the course of the ensuing legal wrangles, the lawyers for the Bulls and Linseman proved that the 20-year old draft age was unlawfully restricting Linseman from gaining employment, as he already had a deal with the Bulls and was ready to play. The NHL had to back down, and Linseman did indeed get to play with the Bulls (and was subsequently drafted in '78 by the Flyers).

Anyway, the NHL now knew the legal precedent had been set that any 19-year old could sign anywhere they wanted, so they had to lower their draft age, and further, the path had been paved well enough that it was clear any 18-year old could make the same challenge, and eventually they had to phase it all the way back. (Probably anybody was going to be legally free at any age, eg. see Gretzky at 17 in the WHA, but for whatever reason, they didn't feel as threatened to bring the draft age back that far, maybe they had reason to believe that no 17-year olds could make as convincing a legal case to claim unfair exclusion from employment, I dunno).

Something like that, anyway. FWIW.
 

me2

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Tom_Benjamin said:
When the NHL does not hold its entry draft in June as per the CBA, the agreement will not apply and, neither, likely, does labour law. Antitrust law will apply and antitrust law will see 30 separate employers trying to restrain the trade in labour. Crosby will file suit under antitrust law but will not ask for damages. The remedy he will seek is the right to negotiate with any or all 30 employers. If hockey teams don't fall all over themselves trying to sign him as soon as the lockout is lifted, he files suit again alleging collusion and claiming millions in damages.

Why did you think any of the stuff you posted was relevant?

Tom

The NHL may not stop a team from signing him. They might say to TeamX that he's been signed but is not recognised as an NHL player.

TeamX might then have to pay him $5m/y and watch him sit out NHL games.

If he appeals the NHL might let him play but might then declare the TeamX team illegal for that game and give the points to the opposition. He and the new team are then free to play as many games as they want. He could play all 82 if he wants.

This all then ends up with more lawyers than you can poke a stick at. The NHL would be allowing him to earn his full $5m/y, so its not financial damages he could seek.
 
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me2

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MePutPuckInNet said:
THIS THREAD IS INSANE.

Why the hell are any of you dropping Crosby's name around as if any of your speculations, assumptions, ideas or opinions are shared by him?

No one is saying THIS IS WHAT CROSBY WILL DO. Crosby is being used because he is the most powerful undrafted player not because its what he will/won't do. Its what he could/couldn't do that is being argued over.
 

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And since no one is playing in the NHL right now, and no player can be signed by any club, whether a team owns the rights to that player or not, Crosby has no grounds to sue.

But why can no player be signed right now?

The owners can make a case that they're waiting to see what the result of the CBA is before they start making contract decisions but how can they agree amongst themselves that no one will be signing anyone? If that doesn't sound like collusion what does?

The old CBA is expired. Nothing in it means anything anymore unless it is imposed upon the league.

How can 30 businesses that compete extremely hard against each other not make an offer to the prospect who can legitimately prove he should be one of the most sought after commodities in the league? He can point to his stats and awards in the Quebec league. He can point to his selection to the World Junior team and his stats with that team. And if that wasn't enough he could bring in expert witnesses who would testify that he might be the most talented 17 year old player since Mario. Why would these competing businesses not want to hire him?
 

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djhn579 said:
If it applies, even though it has expired, this clause is still in effect...

For sure, it applies. The case law is very clear. Jarome Iginla is not an unrestricted free agent even though the CBA that restricts him as expired. The players do not get access to antitrust remedies simply because the CBA is expired.

The difference in this case is that section 8 of the agreement is out the window when there is no draft.

And since no one is playing in the NHL right now, and no player can be signed by any club, whether a team owns the rights to that player or not, Crosby has no grounds to sue.

What stops the New York Rangers from signing Sidney Crosby on July 1st, 2005? Nothing in the CBA stops them if section 8 is out the window. If the answer is "the teams have agreed among themselves not to sign these players" Crosby probably does have grounds. If the CBA does not stop them from doing it, antitrust law will insist that they do.

Tom
 

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BlackRedGold said:
But why can no player be signed right now?

The owners can make a case that they're waiting to see what the result of the CBA is before they start making contract decisions but how can they agree amongst themselves that no one will be signing anyone? If that doesn't sound like collusion what does?

The old CBA is expired. Nothing in it means anything anymore unless it is imposed upon the league.

well this, in my opinion,,,,,is a question that deserves an answer. unfortunately, you're not really going to get one. Apparently it's NOT ok for the owners to collude in the setting of players salaries, but it IS ok for them to all agree, informally of course, that they're NOT going to sign any players before the lockout is over.

It's a great big giant joke. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a lot of under the table activity regarding this even as we speak. Nobody is trustworthy. Both sides are going to do whatever the hell they feel they have to do in order to believe they've "won" something. If it means breaking laws, meeting with players in some back alley wearing a Nixon face mask, or even having "Uncle Joey" or "Cousin Vito" delivering a wrapped package of cryptographic contracts in the middle of the night...they're going to do whatever they want to do in the end. It just doesn't matter what the law says or what a CBA says. They'll find a way around whatever roadblocks there are.
 

me2

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Tom_Benjamin said:
For sure, it applies. The case law is very clear. Jarome Iginla is not an unrestricted free agent even though the CBA that restricts him as expired. The players do not get access to antitrust remedies simply because the CBA is expired.

The difference in this case is that section 8 of the agreement is out the window when there is no draft.


It could be argued that if the Draft part of the CBA is invalid the whole CBA is invalid. Especailly when the core of the CBA is based around player rights and the reserve system.

What stops the New York Rangers from signing Sidney Crosby on July 1st, 2005? Nothing in the CBA stops them if section 8 is out the window. If the answer is "the teams have agreed among themselves not to sign these players" Crosby probably does have grounds. If the CBA does not stop them from doing it, antitrust law will insist that they do.

Tom


Article 10.1.d Draft Related Unrestricted Free Agents.

Any Player not eligible for claim in any future Entry Draft pursuant to this Agreement and not on a Club's Reserve List shall be an unrestricted free agent. Further, any player eligible for claim in the Entry Draft but who was unclaimed shall be an unrestricted free agent subject to the provisions of Section 8.9(b).


Is Crosby eligible for drafting in the following year? I would have thought so. The NHL may argue that case meaning he's not a UFA, the NHLPA may argue he is. At which point the two sides may argue for quite some time before Crosby is even allowed to sign with a team.



8.1. General. Commencing with the 1995 Entry Draft and with respect to the Entry Draft to be held each League Year thereafter, the provisions of this Article 8 shall apply. Each Entry Draft will be held in June (or July in the case of the 1995 Entry Draft), on a date which shall be determined by the Commissioner.


If the season is lost, has there been a league year?



8.9. Eligibility for Play in the League. No player shall be eligible for play in the League unless he:


a) had been claimed in the 1994 Supplemental Draft or in the last Entry Draft, or was ineligible for claim in the 1994 Supplemental Draft or under Section 8.4(a); or

b) had been eligible for claim in the last Entry Draft but was unclaimed, and:

b i) had played hockey in North America the prior season and was age 20 or older at the time of the last Entry Draft, and signed a Player Contract which was signed and registered with the League between the conclusion of the Entry Draft and commencement of the next NHL season.

b ii) had played hockey in North America the prior season and was under age 20 at the time of the last Entry Draft, and signed a Player Contract which was signed and registered with the League between the conclusion of the Entry Draft and commencement of the Canadian Major Junior Hockey League season (except that if such player had signed an NHL Try-Out Form, which was signed and registered with the League during the aforesaid time period, then the deadline for signing and registering with the League a Player Contract with such Try-Out club shall be the commencement of the NHL season).

b iii) The words "eligible for claim in the last Entry Draft" in subparagraph (b) above mean "eligible for claim in all rounds of the last Entry Draft." The words "the prior season" in subparagraph (i) and (ii) above mean "a full season prior to the last Entry Draft."



The last entry draft would have been 2004, he was ineligible.
He's not old enough to by pass the draft.
He's eligible for 2006 draft.

Any team can sign him, but they might not be able to play him.
 
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As for Crosby, the thing I think might force the issue is not so much his right to sue, but the money currently being tossed around in Russia.... Khabby was offered something like 6 mill after tax dollars to play there. From what I hear, Richards, Lecavalier & Kovalchuk are getting roughly 300,000 per month after taxes. There's lots of guys out there right now. The thought of the next big thing starting his career overseas & all the publicity that goes with it, I'd think would be weighing on the minds of some owners and the NHL itself. This is the same league that did all sorts of dancing the last time a player of this magnitude (Lindros) was eligible for the draft. From memory, they changed the rules, so that an expansion club would not get him.... granted it wasn't as difficult a scenario back then, but I'm sure Crosby is a factor. Would the owners cave for him?? Most likely not. But I'm sure they'll be open to negotiations right up to the draft day and most likely already have an agreed upon format for selection order should there not be a season, but a CBA in time for the draft.....

Granted, he was offerred a decent contract to play in the WHA, but I think we all agree that Europe and Russia are a whole lot more stable and with the NHL flavour currently scattered throughout there, a whole lot more tempting...... plus, if I'm doing the math right, 300,000 per month might amount to considerably more then what's currently being tossed around here for an entry level contract anyways!!! :D :D
 

copperandblue

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Sep 15, 2003
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Tom_Benjamin said:
Crosby would sue saying that he has reached the age when he can be signed by an NHL team and that there is not one of the thirty teams in the NHL who would not immediately sign him if they were free to do so. Why aren't they free to do so? What is their legal justification for not doing so? Is the collusion legal?

Pardon my daftness Tom but I still don't get it.

I certainly appreciate that Crosby is being billed as the next great thing but is it a court of laws place to evaluate the talent of Crosby AND decide the the NHL is his rightful place to showcase that talent?

I know it seems out of the relm to question Crosby's talent with all the hype and what not, but for an example it seems to me that Doug Wickenheiser was a pretty sure fire prospect at one time as well - supposed to rival Gretzky's talent before he actually stepped on the ice proved otherwise...

Doesn't this still just boil down to Crosby himself feeling he deserves an NHL contract?

In which case any prospect wether they are pegged for the 1st round or the 9th round able to do the same thing?

Until an NHL team chooses to invest in Crosby he is just another prospect that may or may not have a future in the game (I understand that that notion seems rather harsh but again I don't see how this can boil down to talent when it is in a court of law).

It's also not like he is being held from making a living as there are other professional leagues that may employ him- should he choose to seek them out. So again it seems to me that it is a case of a potential employee wanting to write his own ticket for his future. Something I don't think I have ever heard of in any industry.

I agree that if the Maple Leafs (for example) broke ranks and entered negotiations then there would be precedence for his interest but I doubt that any team would do that and put the league in the league predicament. Besides, if a team did break ranks then don't they open themselves up to legal action by the league as well?

As long as every team is silent then it seems to me that it just boils down to wishful thinking on an 18 year old kids part.
 

Tom_Benjamin

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Sep 8, 2003
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copperandblue said:
I know it seems out of the relm to question Crosby's talent with all the hype and what not, but for an example it seems to me that Doug Wickenheiser was a pretty sure fire prospect at one time as well - supposed to rival Gretzky's talent before he actually stepped on the ice proved otherwise...

One defense the NHL could present in court is that all 30 teams independently decided the Sidney Crosby was a player who was not worth signing. That's surely what they would say if I launched a lawsuit and it would be a very easy case to win. That is an impossible case to present when the player is Sidney Crosby. He could flop - anybody could flop - but there is not a single team who would not draft him and sign him if they had the first pick in the draft and the draft happened.

Major league baseball lost a $1.8 billion collusion suit because 30 major league baseball teams tried to claim that Tim Raines at the top of his game was not worth signing. What's the difference? The teams can't simply decide among themselves that they will not compete for employees.

In which case any prospect whether they are pegged for the 1st round or the 9th round able to do the same thing?

If Crosby did successfully sue, every 2005 draft eligible player would become a free agent. Crosby just has the most obvious case.

I agree that if the Maple Leafs (for example) broke ranks and entered negotiations then there would be precedence for his interest but I doubt that any team would do that and put the league in the league predicament. Besides, if a team did break ranks then don't they open themselves up to legal action by the league as well?

If the Leafs broke ranks? That's the point. A rank is illegal. What legal action can the league take? A team broke the rules everybody knows are illegal?

Tom
 
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