Bob Cole Division Semi Finals - Victoria Cougars (2) vs Carolina Hurricanes (3)

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Jun 18, 2013
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Victoria Cougars (2)

Coach: Jack Adams

Ted Lindsay (C) --- Nicklas Backstrom --- Babe Dye
Alex Delvecchio (A) --- Tommy Dunderdale --- Shane Doan
Ray Whitney --- Ken Mosdell --- Terry O'Reilly
Don Maloney --- Mikko Koivu --- Dmitri Khristich


Ebbie Goodfellow (A) --- Bill White
Lloyd Cook --- Cy Wentworth
Jay Bouwmeester --- Bingo Kampman


Martin Brodeur
Gerry Cheevers

Spares: Art Gagne (RW), Adam Deadmarsh (LW)

PP1: Goodfellow - Cook - Lindsay - Backstrom - Dye
PP2: Bouwmeester - White- Devecchio - Dunderdale - O'Reilly
PK1: Bouwmeester - White - Mosdell - Koivu
PK2: Cook- Wentworth - Delvecchio - Maloney




VS




Carolina Hurricanes (3)

518b-C4O2qL._SX425_.jpg


Coach: Fred Shero

Keith Tkachuk - Joe Sakic (C) - Vladimír Martinec
Venjamin Alexandrov - Walt Tkaczuk - Vic Stasiuk

Johnny Gottselig - Jaroslav Holík - Joe Klukay
Miroslav Šatan - Jozef Golonka - Stan Smyl
Michal Handzuš, David Pastrňák


Zdeno Chára (A) - Nikolai Sologubov
Tomáš Kaberle - František Pospíšil (A)
Jerry Korab - Ken Daneyko
Petr Svoboda

Clint Benedict
Tomáš Vokoun

PP1: Kaberle - Sologubov - Tkachuk - Sakic - Martinec
PP2: Korab - Pospíšil - Alexandrov - Golonka - Šatan

PK1: Chára - Daneyko - Tkaczuk - Klukay
PK2: Korab - Pospíšil - Gottselig - Holík




 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Edmonton
Why Victoria should win

Offensive depth is big advantage for the Cougars

Lindsay (104.4) + Backstrom (81.4) + Dye (??)

TKachuk (73.9) + Sakic (97.7) + Martinec (??)

If we can agree that Dye and Martinec are close to a wash

185.8 vs 171.6 there is a reasonable advantage for Victoria.

Defensively I would lean towards your line, but I'm not sure it's enough to bridge the gap between the two.

Delvecchio (82.9) + Dunderdale (??) + Doan (66.1)

Alexandrov (??) + Tkaczuk (67.8) + Stasiuk (below 65.3)

Dunderdale is definitely better offensively than Tkaczuk and I doubt Alexandrov is that close to Delvecchio. That makes this a romp for Victoria.

Your line makes it up by being better defensively, but my line is able to play responsible two way hockey without giving up too much offense. Looking at the rest of your roster, if your top line isn't scoring I have a hard time seeing how it stays in games.

On defence, your defence is better by virtue of having Chara, but outside of your top two defensemen I think the Cougars have better depth on the back end. Kaberle in an ATD top 4 seems crazy to me.

Chara >> Goodfellow
Pospíšil > White
Sologubov < Wentworth
Kaberle << Cook
 

MadArcand

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Dec 19, 2006
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Seat of the Empire
Unfortunately I don't have much time at all for any arguments and can barely scrounge up enough time to vote, but what is the purpose of your bottom six? Both lines are weird scoring line/checking line hybrids, kind of catdogs that can do some of both but neither at good level.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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Brooklyn
Why Victoria should win

Offensive depth is big advantage for the Cougars

Lindsay (104.4) + Backstrom (81.4) + Dye (??)

TKachuk (73.9) + Sakic (97.7) + Martinec (??)

If we can agree that Dye and Martinec are close to a wash

185.8 vs 171.6 there is a reasonable advantage for Victoria.

Defensively I would lean towards your line, but I'm not sure it's enough to bridge the gap between the two.

Delvecchio (82.9) + Dunderdale (??) + Doan (66.1)

Alexandrov (??) + Tkaczuk (67.8) + Stasiuk (below 65.3)

Dunderdale is definitely better offensively than Tkaczuk and I doubt Alexandrov is that close to Delvecchio. That makes this a romp for Victoria.

Your line makes it up by being better defensively, but my line is able to play responsible two way hockey without giving up too much offense. Looking at the rest of your roster, if your top line isn't scoring I have a hard time seeing how it stays in games.

On defence, your defence is better by virtue of having Chara, but outside of your top two defensemen I think the Cougars have better depth on the back end. Kaberle in an ATD top 4 seems crazy to me.

Chara >> Goodfellow
Pospíšil > White
Sologubov < Wentworth
Kaberle << Cook

Does anyone actually take Ted Lindsay's VsX score at face value?
 

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Does anyone actually take Ted Lindsay's VsX score at face value?

It's tough because he was pretty easily the 2nd best player on his famous line. Now when Gordie Howe is the best and you have Red Kelly and company starring from the back end, I think you're going to have slightly inflated numbers.

But I don't think his score is a bigger outlier than the slugs who skated with Bobby Orr in Boston. The Ken Hodge's of the world that have their low 80's VsX scores used to illustrate a stronger offensive player than they actually were are the ones that puzzle me somewhat.

I don't think he's necessarily worth 104, as you'll never replicate Howe and Kelly on the same team here but it's hard to ding him that much. He's an all time great player whereas a guy like Hodge were just in the right place at the right time IMO, as far as offensive resumes are concerned.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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It's tough because he was pretty easily the 2nd best player on his famous line. Now when Gordie Howe is the best and you have Red Kelly and company starring from the back end, I think you're going to have slightly inflated numbers.

But I don't think his score is a bigger outlier than the slugs who skated with Bobby Orr in Boston. The Ken Hodge's of the world that have their low 80's VsX scores used to illustrate a stronger offensive player than they actually were are the ones that puzzle me somewhat.

I don't think he's necessarily worth 104, as you'll never replicate Howe and Kelly on the same team here but it's hard to ding him that much. He's an all time great player whereas a guy like Hodge were just in the right place at the right time IMO, as far as offensive resumes are concerned.

It wasn't just Howe though; Kelly was so far ahead of the rest of the offensive defensemen in the league. I mean, Lindsay's VsX score would have him quite a bit above Bossy just on offensive, which I don't think anyone actually believes.

Agree with the rest of what you wrote.
 
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"You're a boring old man"
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It wasn't just Howe though; Kelly was so far ahead of the rest of the offensive defensemen in the league. I mean, Lindsay's VsX score would have him quite a bit above Bossy just on offensive, which I don't think anyone actually believes.

Agree with the rest of what you wrote.

Yeah, I mentioned Kelly. His impact from the back end was quite large offensively speaking.

I do think we have to be careful with Bossy though because it wasn't like he didn't have ridiculous talent around him, in the most open era in hockey history. Trottier isn't Howe, obviously, but he's a top 35 player or so all time. Potvin can certainly be argued over Kelly as a defensemen, though I have them basically as a wash. Love Kelly though for his overall ability and what he did in Toronto under Imlach. Gets overlooked a lot.

Overall though, yeah, I don't think a 104 is indicative of the actual offensive skill level regarding Lindsay. He certainly benefited from the folks around him and Ivan's style. Just don't want to over correct without some sort of actual study to give us of an idea of any Howe/Kelly effect. If it's even possible haha.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Yeah, I mentioned Kelly. His impact from the back end was quite large offensively speaking.

I do think we have to be careful with Bossy though because it wasn't like he didn't have ridiculous talent around him, in the most open era in hockey history. Trottier isn't Howe, obviously, but he's a top 35 player or so all time. Potvin can certainly be argued over Kelly as a defensemen, though I have them basically as a wash. Love Kelly though for his overall ability and what he did in Toronto under Imlach. Gets overlooked a lot.

Overall though, yeah, I don't think a 104 is indicative of the actual offensive skill level regarding Lindsay. He certainly benefited from the folks around him and Ivan's style. Just don't want to over correct without some sort of actual study to give us of an idea of any Howe/Kelly effect. If it's even possible haha.

Basically, I don't believe that Lindsay was a better offensive player than Joe Sakic.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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Jun 29, 2009
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Yeah, I mentioned Kelly. His impact from the back end was quite large offensively speaking.

I do think we have to be careful with Bossy though because it wasn't like he didn't have ridiculous talent around him, in the most open era in hockey history. Trottier isn't Howe, obviously, but he's a top 35 player or so all time. Potvin can certainly be argued over Kelly as a defensemen, though I have them basically as a wash. Love Kelly though for his overall ability and what he did in Toronto under Imlach. Gets overlooked a lot.

Overall though, yeah, I don't think a 104 is indicative of the actual offensive skill level regarding Lindsay. He certainly benefited from the folks around him and Ivan's style. Just don't want to over correct without some sort of actual study to give us of an idea of any Howe/Kelly effect. If it's even possible haha.

In 1984-85, Bossy registered 117 points playing with Brent Sutter and John Tonnelli, 6th in the league and 3rd among non-Oilers behind Hawerchuk and Dionne. That year Sutter finished the season with 102 points. Sutter's second best season is 63 points. In 1984-85, Trottier, without playing regularly with Bossy finished the season with 59 points in 68 games.

If I remember correctly Trottier was injured this season, but not 100% sure. Just clarifying that the above is not meant to draw any conclusions about Trottier, but to show that Bossy's production was not reliant on playing with Trottier. For your reference, the Islanders finished 5th in Goals For that season with 348.
 
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In 1984-85, Bossy registered 117 points playing with Brent Sutter and John Tonnelli, 6th in the league and 3rd among non-Oilers behind Hawerchuk and Dionne. That year Sutter finished the season with 102 points. Sutter's second best season is 63 points. In 1984-85, Trottier, without playing regularly with Bossy finished the season with 59 points in 68 games.

If I remember correctly Trottier was injured this season, but not 100% sure. Just clarifying that the above is not meant to draw any conclusions about Trottier, but to show that Bossy's production was not reliant on playing with Trottier. For your reference, the Islanders finished 5th in Goals For that season with 348.

Oh no doubt. I think Bossy is arguably the best PURE (not volume) goal scorer of all time and high end HOF'er. Like Lindsay, I don't want to deviate much off those benchmarks because of their standing in an all time light. I think we can all agree, no matter who the player is, playing on a dynasty is almost always going to be advantageous to your statistical output vs players who never really had a realistic chance to win (say a Dionne). There will always be context no matter who we are looking at.

Lindsay did lead the Wings in goals (33 led league as well) and overall scoring in 47-48. Howe was only 19 and in his first full season but Abel was 29. Lindsay also scored 3 SH goals this year to lead the Wings. That's another reasons i don't want to ding Lindsay TOO much because he did bring value beyond the offensive end of the rink. He can get overrated in that regard but by all accounts he was a very well rounded player.

48-49 saw Lindsay tie Abel for scoring lead on team but Ted had the best ppg rate. In fact he was the only player over a ppg pace.

49-50 Lindsay led the Wings in scoring again. Assists as well, nobody within 20 of him. Didn't realize this but Howe has yet to put up a PPG season yet. Never realized that before. Then Howe really explodes the next season at age 22. And we know the rest haha.
 

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