Bob Cole Division Second Round: #1 Trail Smoke Eaters vs. #5 Toronto Maple Leafs

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by God Bless Canada, Dec 1, 2006.

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  1. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    The Trail Smoke Eaters will play the Toronto Maple Leafs in the second round of All-Time Draft playoffs. The Smoke Eaters finished first in the Bob Cole Division during the regular season and received a first round bye. The Maple Leafs finished fifth in the Bob Cole Division, but defeated the fourth-seeded Halifax Schooners in seven games in the first round. Here are the rosters:

    TRAIL SMOKE EATERS​


    Coach: Dick Irvin Sr.
    Captain: King Clancy
    Alternates: Trevor Linden, Tim Horton, Ron Francis​


    #27 Frank Mahovlich-#21 Ron Francis-#10 Guy LaFleur
    #19 Toe Blake-#12 Joe Primeau-#22 Rick Tocchet
    #25 Vincent Damphousse-#18 Ralph Backstrom-#15 John MacLean
    #9 Esa Tikkanen-#11 Kirk Muller-#16 Trevor Linden
    #24 Mickey Redmond

    #3 J.C. Tremblay-#2 Tim Horton
    #7 King Clancy-#8 Terry Harper
    #6 Harry Cameron-#5 Bill Barilko
    #4 Gary Bergman

    #31 Grant Fuhr
    #1 Lorne Chabot
    #30 Sean Burke​


    TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS​


    Coach:Hap Day
    Captain:Scott Stevens
    Alternate:Dave Keon
    Alternate:Mario Lemieux
    Alternate:George Armstrong​


    #10 Pavel Bure #66 Mario Lemieux #8 Mark Recchi
    #7 Bill Barber #13 Mats Sundin #10 George Armstrong
    # 8 Joe Klukay #14 Dave Keon #6 Ron Ellis
    #61 Cory Stillman- #9 Dan Bain #44 Todd Bertuzzi
    #12 Eric Staal,C

    #4 Scott Stevens #5 Nik Lidstrom
    #20 Lennart Svedberg #20 Gary Suter
    #21 Bobby Baun #2 Bob Goldham
    #24 Robert Svehla

    #20 Ed Belfour
    # 35 Tom Barrasso
    #1 Roberto Luongo
     
  2. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    I decided to save my old pal Elvi a little time and take care of this thread. Sorry to step on your toes, buddy, but I had a little free time and thought "what the hey."

    In terms of talent, I don't think there's much separating these teams. Goaltending is close to even. Come playoff time, I'd take Fuhr over Belfour. But they're still two of the bottom five or six No. 1 goalies in the draft. Fuhr's a proven playoff ace who backstopped four teams to the Stanley Cup. (He was injured when Edmonton won their fifth Cup in 1990). Belfour had some great playoffs, too, although he had some less-than-stellar moments, especially early in his career. Trail has an edge at the back-up position with Lorne Chabot over Tom Barasso, but Toronto has the edge at No. 3 with Luongo compared to Sean Burke.

    Defence is fairly even, too. Toronto has one of the most intriguing top pairings in the draft with Lidstrom-Stevens. Both are playoff-tested, Conn Smythe-winning defencemen. Trail's 1-2 punch of Horton and Clancy has more rings, but not the Conn Smythe Trophies. If there is an edge on defence, it's the 3-4 players: Tremblay and Cameron are a notch above Suter-Svedberg, although Suter is a very good No. 3 defenceman. I've read from one knowledgeable poster that Tremblay is the best defenceman not in the HHOF. Even if Toronto goes with Baun as their No. 4, Trail still has an edge. Both teams have third pairings that will be difficult to play against.

    Toronto has one of the best collections of centres in the draft. A definite edge there. Trail has likely the best left wing corps left in the draft. A definite edge there. Neither team has an overly dominant right wing corps, although Trail does have a game-breaker in Guy LaFleur. Both Trail and Toronto have a second line winger whose purpose is to open up room for linemates, instead of score six times in a seven-game series. One aspect to note is the battle between the third and fourth lines. Trail has two lines that they can throw out against the Lemieux and Sundin lines. Toronto has a really good third line to throw out against the Francis or the Primeau lines, but the fourth line will struggle to stop either of those lines.

    Coaching is a very interesting matchup. Without a doubt, two of the top 10 coaches of all time. Hap Day beat Dick Irvin several times during the 40s. From that perspective, Toronto has the edge. But Day also doesn't have Turk Broda to save his team this time - he has Belfour. Belfour's great, a surefire HHOFer, but he's a definite step down from Broda.

    The biggest edge in this series is in the intangibles. Trail has 69 Cup rings on their roster. This is a team that was built for the playoffs. Their first place finish in the division during the regular season should be viewed as a bit of a surprise. They don't have a leader as strong as Armstrong or Lemieux, but they have a lot of players who served as captains during their career. They also have a lot more character. Toronto's biggest weakness is their locker room character. Guys like Bure, Bertuzzi, Barasso and Belfour dot the roster. You can get away with having one or two suspects guys. But four? That's another story.
     
  3. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    Do we really trust this info from a guy with Trail Smoke Eaters as his avatar? ;)


    Can anyone tell me a little about Lennart Svedberg? From the little there is about him on eurohockey.net, The guy made the World Championships all-star team 3 years in a row, won the IIHF best defenceman award in 1970, and then died in a car accident at age 28.

    It seems like he was quite a player, and he was clearly still in his prime. Just wondering if anyone who saw him could comment on how he stacks up against, say, Salming.


    btw, a little off topic, but do you have to select player by position in these drafts? I just noticed that Damphousse was being played as a left wing. I could be wrong, but I only recall him as a centre.
     
  4. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

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  5. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    leafs won 43 cups between them and are hardly slouches and for game breakers

    lidstrom svhela sundin bure and soem fellow named mario lemieux

    should do rather well providing offense


    you discuss posible problems in the dressing rooms but i highly doubt any team captained by Scott stevens
    with Alternate Captains:Dave Keon:Mario Lemieux George Armstrong

    Natural leaders like Bain Barber Sundin Lidstrom Recchi Ban and Goldman can morethen pacifu any trouble that could be dreated by tom barrasso or pavek bure

    Belfour no trouble hes a wild party! Time to bond boys!!!


    #10 Pavel Bure #66 Mario Lemieux #8 Mark Recchi
    #7 Bill Barber #13 Mats Sundin #10 George Armstrong
    # 8 Joe Klukay #14 Dave Keon #6 Ron Ellis
    #61 Cory Stillman- #9 Dan Bain #44 Todd Bertuzzi
    #12 Eric Staal,C

    #4 Scott Stevens #5 Nik Lidstrom
    #20 Lennart Svedberg #20 Gary Suter
    #21 Bobby Baun #2 Bob Goldham
    #24 Robert Svehla

    #20 Ed Belfour
    # 35 Tom Barrasso
    #1 Roberto Luongo
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2006
  6. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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  7. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    Interesting tidbit, I read yesturday from the site BM67 linked to.

     
  8. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    what nyld tells me shows that he is a unselfish great player who is also a leader woo hoo victory for my team:D
     
  9. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    Taking a look at the two teams, I'd give the Leafs the edge and see them closing it out on home ice in game 6.

    The Trail Smoke Eaters biggest advantage is the quality of the 4th line, which come playoff time, might actually be their 3rd best line. An excellent set of LW's, and Fuhr, who I always thought was underrated and a big time money goalie. The Smoke Eaters certainly have more depth.

    As for the Leafs, strength up the middle, and the two best defenseman in the series. If I'm coaching the Leafs, I would probably split up Stevens/Lidstrom so that I made sure I had one of them on the ice for most of the game. I would also shorten the bench a bit and go with 3 lines.

    One other significant edge for the Leafs, would be a dominant power play, that could win a series by itself if the Smoke Eaters become undisciplined.

    In the end the strength up the middle of the Leafs, and the greatness of Mario overcomes the depth of the Smoke Eaters.
     
  10. Frightened Inmate #2

    Frightened Inmate #2 Registered User

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    Say what? Svehla as a game breaker. Really the only game breakers in the truest sense that you have on your team is Lemieux and Lidstrom and probably Stevens. Past that you can't name players that have yet to win a cup as gamebreakers in the postseason - especially someone like Svehla who has a total of what one playoff goal from someone whose greatest strength is creating offense that is dismal.

    As I have said before your team lacks the top end goaltending necessary for victory and the bonding thing just doesn't happen n a group which is going to be fractured. I mean at which round is Bure going to threaten to hold out or is Bertuzzi going to take off. Your team just seems really fractured from an outsiders perspective and at what point is that going to be detrimental.
     
  11. Transplanted Caper

    Transplanted Caper Registered User

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    This is a great matchup for the Maple Leafs. The disadvantage they had in goal in round one is nearly eliminated. I still maintain LL has the best top 3 up the middle in the draft (although I guess i am a bit of a Leaf homer). Still, this will be an interesting series indeed.
     
  12. pitseleh

    pitseleh Registered User

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    I disagree with these two points. I'd say that Horton and Clancy are easily better than Stevens. Lidstrom may be the best of the bunch, but in terms of top end talent, they're pretty even. But I'd take Trail's depth over Toronto's.

    And I think that Trail's first powerplay unit is pretty dynamite as well. Two of the top 20 forwards of all time, and an elite powerplay quarterback in Cameron. Lemieux-Bure is a deadly combination, but I don't think it's that big of a difference.

    It's a pretty even series, but I see Trail pulling this one out, since they have a greater abundance of character players. Obviously guys like Armstrong and Keon are strong leaders, but for every one of those guys, Toronto has a Bertuzzi and a Belfour.
     
  13. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    mats sundin 88 game winning goals and counting

    belfour has 461 career wins 75 career shut outs
    1 stanley cup
    88 ca=reer playoff wins 14 playoff shut outs
    2 Vezina Trophy
    4 William M. Jennings Trophy

    maybe many of you are too young to recall how great eddie was
    or maybe your nto a leaf fan and didnt watcvh him in his first 2 yrs in toronto.

    it is clear you dont have the ability to create bonding but you seem to know about division and seperation :)

    i think the western folk took bertuzzie goonery to heart big bad wolf never had such bad pr as poor todd bertuzi

    he always seems like a nice guy whenever i seen him on tv I never heard of him being a cancer till his goonery a few season past.

    I recall him be seperated last season from his reammates alot. Last season he seemed ot just hang with naslund and morrison. No one wanted to support his barbaric acts. Some wanted him banned from hockey He made a mistake and its time to forgive.

    He hasso much talent Big and mobile, he owns soft hands that do damage around the net. Can score spectacular goals, but is also adept at playing the set-up role. When on his game, he can dominate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2006
  14. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    You don't have to select a player by position, but your team is hurt if you load up at one position. In Damphousse's case, it was a lot more than his early years. His best season, 1995-96, was at centre, but most of his prime was played at LW.

    He was an LW for the Leafs in the late 80s/early 90s, he was the LW on the Oilers short-lived Pipe Line with Bernie Nichols and Joe Murphy, and he was an LW in his first three seasons in Montreal, including 1993, when he won the Cup.

    I think one of the strengths of my bottom two lines is versatility. Damphousse thrived at both centre and left wing. Tikkanen played all three forward positions. Linden played a lot at centre and right wing. Muller played mostly centre, but also had some years at left wing early in his career.

    We went with two two-way lines knowing that each team is going to have two strong scoring lines. MacLean was a solid all-round player who could play a good defensive game and get involved physically. He also had three straight 40-goal seasons before shredding his knee. Backstrom, for my money, is one of the best defensive centres to ever play the game. A great skater and world-class smarts and anticipation. We didn't get his old running buddy (Provost), but we did get Terry Harper, and Backstrom and Harper (along with Provost) teamed to contain the stars of the Original 6.

    If we run into penalty trouble, we can trot out three strong penalty killing units - an asset that few teams have. And with our checking lines and Grant Fuhr in net, we think we're as tough as any team in the league with a one-goal lead and one minute to play.

    LL's third line will certainly cause lots of problems for our Francis line, but we love the match-up of Bain's line vs our Primeau line. Primeau and Blake were likely our two biggest steals.
     
  15. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    How many does he have in the playoffs? Regular season numbers mean squat now. It's all about what they did in the playoffs. And Sundin's playoff record would be described as lukewarm at best. (74 points in 83 games, for a player with Sundin's skill and regular season portfolio, isn't spectacular).
     
  16. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

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    Not including last years playoffs, so 67-04, the Leafs trail Trail in GWG 77-56 and OTG 14-6.
     
  17. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    I'm not so sure. I think they'd be better seperate. Bure doesn't use his linemates well and Mario likes to control the puck.
     
  18. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    I actually have the utmost respect for the Leafs top line. We know that if we can stop them, we will win this series. But stopping them is the key. I don't know if you'd really change the situation much if you moved Bure to Sundin or Bain's line. I think Bure's better off with a centre who will simply get him the puck and play a two-way game (a Gilmour or a Francis, for example) but a Lemieux-Bure combo is going to be incredibly tough to defend against. It's times like these that I'm glad I have two two-way, well-rounded lines.

    In the last draft, LL's top line was Gretzky-Bure-Kariya. I think this line works better, because they have Recchi on the right side to work the corners. He also gives a different look, as he has a good shot with a very quick release. Recchi can dangle, but he's a good fit as the bookend for this line.

    I should clarify one thing I said earlier: I'm not a big fan of the GWG stat (or most stats in general). I love the OT winner stat, but let's face it: my team has played so many playoff games that we should have an edge in the number of OT winners. I think GWG in one-goal games is noteworthy, but what's the significance of the winning goal in a 7-1 game?
     
  19. Evil Speaker

    Evil Speaker Registered

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    Agreed, the Smoke Eaters have one of the more balanced defensive corps in the draft from 1-6.
     
  20. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    The Smoke Eaters certainly have better depth, but I like the top end of the Leafs, plus the strength down the middle.

    I'm a big believer in the winning formula of dominance at center, and premiere defenseman.
     
  21. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

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    Coaching: Irvin doesn't have the shining record that Day has, but he never coached a dynasty and coached almost 3 times as many games. Irvin coached in more Stanley Cup Finals than Day coached seasons. Advantage: Trail

    Goaltending: As much as I'm not a fan of Fuhr, I have to give him the nod over Belfour. The Chabot vs Barrasso matchup also goes in favour of Trail. Advantage: Trail

    Defense: As much of a terror Tim Horton with contacts is going to be, I still have to give the edge on top pairing to Toronto. On the 2nd pairing, while Clancy is steadier on defense than Svedberg, any edge on offense is lost to Suter vs Harper. Clancy also gives new meaning to the phrase "too small to play defense in the NHL", which is heard all too often at Entry Draft time. On the 3rd pairing, while Cameron is superior offensively, and Barilko is the biggest hitter, the pairing of Baun and Goldham is a defensive rock that has them beat. Advantage: Leafs

    Forwards: As hard as it may be to believe that a line of Mahovlich, Francis and Lafleur would be at a disadvantage, it is the case vs Bure, Lemieux, Recchi. It gets even worse when you factor in the checking lines of both sides. Klukay, Keon and Ellis are going to be more able to contain Trails top line than Tikkanen, Muller and Linden will Lemieux and company. The Smokes other checking line is probably a little better suited to facing Sundin's line, than their 2nd line, but I do not think the Leafs want to have their 4th line up against Blake, Primeau and Tocchet. Advantage: Overall I'd give the edge to Toronto, but with home ice advantage Trail might be able to swing some matchups their way and take it.

    This could swing either way. Trail has the coaching advantage to go with home ice, as well as better goaltending. Toronto has the best player in the series in the person of one Mario Lemieux. He has missed about a third of his career due to various injuries and ailments. Remember also that the Leafs have played a 7 game opening round series. The Leafs also have possible locker room problems hanging over their head.
     
  22. Evil Speaker

    Evil Speaker Registered

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    If you want to see premier defencemen look no further than Horton, Clancy, Cameron and Tremblay
     
  23. Frightened Inmate #2

    Frightened Inmate #2 Registered User

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    And a less than stellar playoff record where he hasn't lead a team to the finals let alone won a cup.

    Roman Turek also put up really nice numbers on a really good team so yeah... But Belfour has always had the advantage of playing behind a very solid team whereever he was (save San Jose and look how that turned out). He performed roughly the same with Toronto as Joseph did by the way, says a heck of a lot about the team more than the goaltender.

    No I am not a huge leafs fan but I have seen enough of Belfour in order to say that he really isn't a very good #1 goaltender in an all time draft.

    Canucks fan we have great insight into crappy locker rooms.

    Canucks fan once again so I don't know what all this hoo-ha is about
    You can't determine someones character from a TV soundbite. If it was only the Moore thing I would shrug it off but he was a huge part in a Canucks team doing nothing in the post-season because of his significant part in disrupting the locker room. Not to mention he played a very large part in Crawford getting fired from Vancouver as well. Does he have tallent - you bet he does. Does he take days off and have a huge chip on his shoulder - once again the answer has to be yes.

    He divided himself from his locker-room and caused conflict as a result which is one of the major reasons the Canucks missed the playoffs alltogether, and you can bet that this wasn't just something that happened last season but it was a festering scab on the Canucks organization as a whole just waiting to get infected (which Bertuzzi did a great job in accomplishing).

    But do you want a jackass as a fourth line player? A jackass who can't play defense at that.
     
  24. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    you...can't be serious. Belfour and Joseph looked good BECAUSE of the defence they played behind in Toronto?!

    You, sir, just blew my mind.

    It must be opposite day today, because I'm pretty sure they looked good IN SPITE of that mighty Maple Leaf defence corps, featuring such defensive stallwarts as McCabe, Berg, Cross, Erikson, Housley, Belak, and a 100 year old Jyrkki "oh **** I fell over again" Lumme.

    Not only was there poor personnel, but Pat Quinn had no concept of a defensive system whatsoever. Those Leaf teams just went for it all game long, knowing that Cujo and Belfour would keep them in the game. Look at how awesome the team was last season, when Belfour lost all his talent over the lockout (probably in a poker game). The Leaf roster is essentially the same, and they go from 2nd in the conference to missing the playoffs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2006
  25. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    stillamn lidstorm rechi andstall must had scored some gwg durign last seasons playoffs;)
     

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