Board-To-Board Mock - The Draft!

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bleedgreen

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nuckfan in TO said:
why is this not set up for you guys?

again every team needs to be in a certain spot... are you telling me that protecting 3 canes players and then being in a draft - a reversal draft at that, where you get 2 close picks together - isn't going to give you a chance at a stronger roster than you currently have on the Canes? the goal here is to try and get more balanced rosters for a SIM league after - so would those rosters be more balanced if we simply took the current NHL rosters, or actually gave teams a chance, through strategy, to build new ones through this draft?
first of all, i havent snapped at balej once, he snapped at me for asking why the worst teams go last, and ive made a point to thank him for the work numerous times. it is unfair to the lower teams, sure the canes pick twice in a row but after everyone else has picked on top of protecting their best players - there arent going to be a lot of guys left to turn the team around. then we dont pick again for almost 60 spots - thats the kicker. we can get a couple of guys now, but thats a long time to go without a pick. my original point was the good teams had the depth to overcome that, the lower teams dont. it is a setup to maintain the present balance of the league, imo, which is fine. do it the way you want, i have no problem with that, but naturally not a lot of people from the low end are going to jump all over it. how come if you disagree with something, youre *****ing? sorry i had an opinion. we've had some good discussions in the past, so i dont have anything against you, or balej. i want to participate in a mock, and i would love to have my team - but having the canes a step behind everyone when they already suck is a bummer. its a fair opinion.
 

Ensane

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Mar 2, 2002
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There's still a lot of good players left, I don't see why this is such an issue. The Canes for instance are able to keep three of their top players and can add a Demitra and/or a Foote to their roster and instantly make them better than they were last year and probably would've been this year. If anything this type of a draft would even the rosters out quite a bit.
 

NFITO

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bleedgreen said:
first of all, i havent snapped at balej once, he snapped at me for asking why the worst teams go last, and ive made a point to thank him for the work numerous times. it is unfair to the lower teams, sure the canes pick twice in a row but after everyone else has picked on top of protecting their best players - there arent going to be a lot of guys left to turn the team around. then we dont pick again for almost 60 spots - thats the kicker. we can get a couple of guys now, but thats a long time to go without a pick. my original point was the good teams had the depth to overcome that, the lower teams dont. it is a setup to maintain the present balance of the league, imo, which is fine. do it the way you want, i have no problem with that, but naturally not a lot of people from the low end are going to jump all over it. how come if you disagree with something, youre *****ing? sorry i had an opinion. we've had some good discussions in the past, so i dont have anything against you, or balej. i want to participate in a mock, and i would love to have my team - but having the canes a step behind everyone when they already suck is a bummer. its a fair opinion.

fair enough, and I wasn't really referring to you with the "b!tching" comment... it was more so the fact that the LA board decided to boycott the draft rather than let the fans there decide... as if the board has spoken for everyone - while in the rules discussion thread below there's an LA fan who's already talked about wanting to be part of that team.

I understand your point about where you pick.. but again in a 30 team draft there has to be some kind of order, and there'll always be someone that picks last in a pool.

Being a Vancouver fan I could just as easily complain... sure we get a #7 pick, but then we wait again for 1 and 3/4 rounds to pick again... and this while we also don't benefit much at all with the way the rules for prospects comes in, where we can't pick up a guy like Ovechkin and Malkin... or in the canes situation, they get to autoprotect a guy like Ladd, where our top prospect is Schneider, while guys like Kesler, King, Auld and Koltsov, the top prospects in our organization are all up for the draft and aren't be protected.

It's the younger teams, the ones still developing that in most cases get the better prospects pool to work with...

and then you have a team like Atlanta that totally benefits from this format... they get to protect Kovalchuk and Heatley, while also getting a top pick (they took Jovo), and still getting to autoprotect their top prospects from the last couple years.

When you break it down, sure it's not a perfect system... but honestly, can you realistically come up with one? where all teams will be happy?

I guess part of the reasoning behind this whole thing was that it's not a draft that ignores what's in the NHL - where the top teams are rewarded for being the top teams, while finding a way to level the playing field - and a reversal draft, while eliminating salary concerns, and letting teams protect all their top young unsigned prospects, does just that - levels the playing field than what it currently is in the NHL.

I guess in some ways, you can compare this to the NHL situation right now... no matter what happens with the CBA, there is no way you can entirely level the playing field out there... hopefully the new CBA bridges the gap... but if the poorest teams in the league want a completely level playing field, they might as well fold now and join the AHL or UHL or whatever, cause it ain't going to happen in the NHL.

In the end though, I just don't understand the big deal behind these complaints, and any reason to "officially" boycott anything that someone posts on a site, where others are already showing interest. It's a simple game.... if you don't like it, don't play... but you can't worry about making everyone happy to make everyone play, cause that can never happen.... there are no perfect rules that fits nicely for 30 different draft slots.
 

chriss_co

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So is the mock draft scrapped cuz of the kings??

Frankly, the draft order is fine with me. Not every team can pick in the top 10. The draft order was done to spite certain teams. Plus, you get the 16th pick! Thats 14 picks better than Carolina.

Of course, Carolina gets a perk by picking two consecutive players of the same calibre.

Thats how these draft orders work!
 

bleedgreen

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chriss_co said:
Thats how these draft orders work!
understood, i know. nuckfan, i would have done it the same way but in opposite order. not to favor the canes, i know in a way it would, but their picks would still be 60 apart in the later rounds. it just gives the lower teams the first crack at the best players, and they are the teams that need it the most. the canes for example, kept two forwards who havent scored a career total of a hundred goals (or even fifty?), and a goalie who isnt even in the nhl yet. this core is years away from being effective, while ottawa kept a norris type, and two of the 4 best forwards on a stacked team. and then they add a top player to that, and we get whats left at the end. i think if you guys were doing this over here to start, and keeping amongst those on the mock boards - its a sweet setup. i think if youre trying to get everyone on the boards involved, it should be a more standard worst goes first style. keeps it fair and no one can complain. regardless, i want to play even though my team does get stuck at first, i really dont care that much and im not trying to make a big deal...im in. i just questioned it ar first since the original attempt was so broad in scope (across the board), i didnt agree with hooking up the top teams.
 

RobsonStreet

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Its no use complaining. One board refuses to participate. It's unfortunate, but their perogative.

Considering plenty of boards seem to be interested and have chosen to participate, why not consider this scenario: Apparently the majority of fans in LA, jaded from lockout issues and lack of league parity (after all, their core isn't as solid as other teams and yet they don't see their drafting positions bearing fruit) abandon their team. With no fan support, the team cannot compete. The league contracts. No more LA Kings. Diehards are forced to bite their tongue and cheer on the Ducks.

The next question is what do you do to their protected list?
 
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bleedgreen

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is this draft officailly over here now, is each boards still getting notified or what? if its here, i know the canes fans will miss it - just checking so i know where to look.
 

Ajacied

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I have mixed feelings on this draft. On one hand, I think that the way the order was determined was one of the worst methods possible. You're having the top 10 teams all having the chance to draft the top of the class players. Forget the snake thingy, it's like the Bolts and the Avs drafting Crosby and Brule, do you really think other, seemingly less fortunate and talented teams, would simply play along? Ofcourse does there have to be an order and ofcourse will some team pick first overall, and surely you will not like it if that team isn't your favorite; but at least come up with a fair set up. Pick the teams out of a head for all I care, 30 teams, 30 equal chances. Do not let the best teams draft first, it makes no sense and I can completely understand those who will not longer take part in this draft because of it. This was directed at the creator, not you NFITO, you've been doing an amazing job. On the other hand however, I like this idea very much, I think it has a lot of potential to grow into a competitive league with a lot of decent GM's. I just don't like the way the order was determined and the way it's organised at the moment. It takes forever for a team to draft a player (no one pays attention to the 8 hour rule) and with that there's a lot of chaos surrounding it with no clear cut player as the result. Joseph and NFITO often step in and pretty much decides for them.

All in all, here's my proposal;

- Start all over from the point the team's all protected their 3 players.
- Come up with a fair set-up. The "teams in head" thingy is usually the best idea.
- Instead of asking entire boards, have each board have 2 representative's who announce the pick and who have the power to pick on their own may the board not come to an agreement. If the time-limit expires, you could settle the pick with one of the team's representative's as well.
- Hire more comissioners. 2 Isn't gonna cut it, I propose at least 5.

Just my two €0,02 ..
 

NFITO

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first of all, last contact I had with JB suggests that this draft isn't over.

There are a couple of people that have shown interest to be LA, and they'll be contacted to basically be part of that team management and PM the picks to JB... that was what I heard yesterday and I'm assuming we're just waiting for that to sort out, and then JB will continue the draft to Calgary.

Secondly, with the setup... i really don't think there is any need to change the order.

Bleedgreen, I totally understand your points... I just don't agree with them. You take away all but the top 3 players on each team and the difference between the "poor" and "rich" teams isn't that much anymore.

Yes, the Canes are hurt... but that's not so much the fault of the setup, but the fault of the Canes. There are plenty of bottom teams that have a good core of 3 - you give them the top pick on top of that, how is that fair to any of the top teams that end up losing the most in this draft? In the end you have a league, where in most cases it's the non-playoff teams that start with the best assets. I know the Canes aren't in a good situation - but that's because of their own lack of depth they started with in their top 3 - not the way the structure is set up.

For example, you have Florida, you protect JBo, Luongo, and Horton, then get another top pick, while keeping their top prospects like Olesz and Stewart under contract. How does this compare with a team like the Canucks, who are already older, have Naslund for possibly 1 season, and then have Bert and Ohlund protected, while losing Jovo, picking near the end of the round and lose their top prospects, since they aren't a team that drafts high and their top prospects are more developed, already signed and not auto-protected?

Where does Detroit fit in? They protect Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and Lidstrom, like Naslund may be around for 1 season... their top prospects - Hudler, Kronwall for example, are signed and available.

The bottom line is that the setup is trying to be more fair than what the situation currently is.

There are different ways to start a new SIM league. You can start with the current NHL rosters on each team, assign team management and then go with it... the Canes in this case would simply suck.

You could start from scratch, start a new draft and go with that... no protected players... agian then the way you determine the draft will determine which teams have the best chance to be best... with no relation to the NHL.

This method is just another... and really I don't think there are any problems with it.

Anyways, the setup has been done... sure teams will complain, but like I said before there isn't a setup where teams won't complain. I think that this works because it gives the teams that are best in the NHL the chance to start off strongest here - which is fair IMO.... at the same time - and just as important - the method tried to level the current playing field.

again, it's like the CBA... you keep the strongest teams, strongest, but the goal is to level the playing field, by improving the weaker teams at the cost of the strongest - the bridge between the top and bottom shrinks.

I think that's a fair starting point in a new league.

Concessions have also been made in the rules to level the field... where salary won't be an issue in the first season, and provisions are put in place where every team can be a "big market" ... and also the prospects rules, which will help the bottom teams much much more than the top teams.... these are automatic assets that can be used to improve any roster further - and the weakest teams start of with the best chance to get the strongest assets here.

all in all, no it's not a perfect system, but one that works and gives us a game much more fair and even that what we get with the current system.

complaints will be there, and won't stop... but I think this is a good compromise and really at this point I don't think there is any reason to re-start the draft.

Again with the current draft, just waiting for JB, who I'm assuming is waiting for the two people who had expressed interest in taking over the Kings to get back to him on their pick.
 

NFITO

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Ott = Snott said:
All in all, here's my proposal;

- Start all over from the point the team's all protected their 3 players.
- Come up with a fair set-up. The "teams in head" thingy is usually the best idea.
- Instead of asking entire boards, have each board have 2 representative's who announce the pick and who have the power to pick on their own may the board not come to an agreement. If the time-limit expires, you could settle the pick with one of the team's representative's as well.
- Hire more comissioners. 2 Isn't gonna cut it, I propose at least 5.

Just my two €0,02 ..

at this point I don't think there is any reason to start over... the idea to have boards vote on each pick is both positive and negative.

On the one hand it takes time... on the other you find out just how much support you have from the team boards in this, and it creates participation among fans in this idea, and you know who's best for the team's management positions.

I think the idea to start off with was to have this board to board mock until the 5th round or so... by that point each board would have a thread about GM voting, and vote for their team GM... then find the rest of who would be team management (AGM and scout)... after that point all the picks would be given by that GM after consulting (or getting votes) from the rest of his or her team... this is also the point where the rules page and website would be available for everyone.

So that would really take care of the pick problem at that stage, but prior to that you want to assess 2 things - 1, just how much interest there is on each board, and 2) through these open discussions on each board, each team can decide who's best suited for the GM position to represent them, and then the GMs can decide who is best suited for the other management positions.... sorta like a practical interview process.

After pick 5, the rest of it goes to the team management to pick.

The second issue, with commissioners... we have that addressed in the rules book... again we're waiting for the website to finalize and we will post the detailed rules there.

I have gone through and tried to put together a very detailed rule book covering everything from specific rules to how it fits with the FHL system - so even FHL newbies can learn the game quickly... it's also all focussed towards trying to keep the league realistic... all in all it's about 30 pages now, and we're setting it up in such a way that you wouldn't even have read it all - just go to the sections through hyperlinks to the parts that deal with the things you need to know now (I know it's long, but it's detailed and covers everything including the SIM, and set up hopefully in a way which will be easy to follow and go to specific parts).

I'm waiting for some feedback on all this from the other commissioners (we have 3 in total - JB, myself and habsgirl who is experienced in running quite a few FHL leagues and is our webmaster right now setting up the website, message board and the FHL SIM on it)...

but what I've added in the rules is a way to get the league community (GMs, AGMs, and scouts) involved in the commissioner's process... there are different committees set up where they (elected or selected depending on the committee) will be incharge to run things... this takes time off our hands, so that we can commish the league easier.

anyways, the rules book will clear up most of these questions, and we'll post it when the site is ready for further discussion.

Also put right into the rules where GMs (or teams) can change rules through majority voting in the offseason (so rules aren't changed mid-season)... setting up a GMs conference as well each offseason to discuss rules.

Again the point is to put this game in the hands of the GMs with us setting the framework of a realistic league.

Hopefully if everything falls into place, 3 commissioners will be enough, when you have all teams participating in basically "commishing" the league (I know that's not a word :) )... if not then we'll add commissioners through seasons, giving the options to those that have run on committees and have demonstrated that they would be good for the job through their unbaised decisions on the committees and the committement they've shown to the league - can even leave this to a vote, where after season 1, for example, the league votes on who they wish should be added to the commissioner's office from all those that are part of the league community.

anyways, once the rules page is up with the website, it'll clear up a lot of this.
 

NFITO

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bleedgreen said:
is this still going on?

I hope so...

I haven't heard any replies from Jozef Balej from the PMs I sent him on it, and don't see anything happening with the draft.

If the draft is dead here, we'll have to explore options to start a new draft with the fantasy league as the league should be set up in a couple weeks.
 

Ajacied

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nuckfan in TO said:
If the draft is dead here, we'll have to explore options to start a new draft with the fantasy league as the league should be set up in a couple weeks.

Let's just do this.. Joseph wouldn't mind..

I'd be happy to assist btw..
 

NFITO

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Ott = Snott said:
Let's just do this.. Joseph wouldn't mind..

I'd be happy to assist btw..

okay ... done!

I don't want to keep waiting through the mock draft since it's taking so long to figure it out.

And OS, definitely would love your help in setting this up.

This is where we're at with it:

1) The board to board mock was supposed to give us the starting 25 man roster for each team. This now seems to be cancelled, so we need to start a new one up, with the team assignments in place (all GMs for teams must be in place).

2) We were then supposed to work on the rules while this draft was on-going. The rules are now complete and waiting to be setup on the new league site... the rules will need to be adjusted though depending on the level of participation we get - if we don't get enough teams with AGMs and scouts, or if we don't get player agents, then those rules will have to be re-written.

3) The League site is still under construction. Been informed yesterday that it should be ready near the end of this week.

4) Team management selections - we need to find out exactly how many people are interested, and fill all teams up. On the Rules thread, I've been putting names to teams of those that are currently interested... and a couple teams have multiple names so we can fill up multiple positions on those teams - or move people to another team if they would rather be a GM of another team, instead of an AGM or scout of their favorite team.

So what we need to do to get started:

- we need to fill up all team spots. If we can get this done by the end of NEXT week, then we can start the league up the following week with a new fantasy draft picked by each team management.

- we will then draft again, set up our own draft rules, and then have GMs pick their own teams.


Seriously I'd rather that we get all the rosters from this board-to-board mock, but the delays and complaints are getting annoying and we need to start something up before even those that have expressed interest, lose it and find something else.

So OS, if you'd like to help, you're welcome to it... you can even PM me if you like, with an email, so I can send you over the current rules we have, and get your feedback on it... if you have MSN IM or something, it would be helpful in discussing everything (usually communicate with the webmaster - habsgirl - via MSN or email)... but if you're interested, then we can add you to the current group of commissioners and go from there.

I really want this league to work... I've been in quite a few sim leagues now over the years, and the one thing that most seem to lack is a realistic appeal to it... which is what we're trying to make here... and I think we really have a good foundation of that going now, so it'd be a shame if all the work we've put into setting up the rules and the website all goes dead because this mock draft seems to be dying.
 

kimzey59

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Aug 16, 2003
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Here's an idea, why don't you just PM TwzKing (the Kings Gm) and get his pick and then continue the BTB Mock? The Draft was going fine until the Kings board started their little temper tantrum, so designate their Gm and move on from there. You can post a message on the Kings board telling them who to PM their picks to if they're still interested in participating(if anybody else is interested in the GM spot they can PM TwzKing and work out the Hierarchy themselves and determine the picks via a Management vote). You don't have to scrap the entire thing when there is only a handful of malcontents holding things up.
 

NFITO

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kimzey59 said:
Here's an idea, why don't you just PM TwzKing (the Kings Gm) and get his pick and then continue the BTB Mock? The Draft was going fine until the Kings board started their little temper tantrum, so designate their Gm and move on from there. You can post a message on the Kings board telling them who to PM their picks to if they're still interested in participating(if anybody else is interested in the GM spot they can PM TwzKing and work out the Hierarchy themselves and determine the picks via a Management vote). You don't have to scrap the entire thing when there is only a handful of malcontents holding things up.

we'd already talked about that, and that was supposed to be the plan... I've already PMed both TwzKing and another poster who was interested in taking over the Kings when this mess started... I told both posters to PM JB directly about it, and he'd get their picks for the Kings.

I also PMed JB about it, and he agreed that this is the way we'd go.

This was last week... haven't heard anything since, no PMs, no posts nothing...

I've just received a PM from OS and he looks to be interested in running a new mock draft with new rules, and work that into the SIM... OS is a long time poster here, and while we've butted heads a few times over the years, he's reliable and I know he can get this thing going and finished so that we can all get into the SIM league... think that is what we need to do from here.
 
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