Player Discussion Bo Horvat

[CanaFan]

I don't want either of those guys traded from Vancouver. There's a difference between expressing a desire and speculating about possibilities out loud.

Which is exactly what this thread’s OP did, if you’d bothered to read his first post.

But of course we all know that’s probably too nuanced for you.

 

[Melvin]

It’s a bull **** thread built on one persons bizarre speculation

It's a discussion worth having, despite its framing.

I have never really bought that Horvat is in the long term plans of this regime. I think it's worth talking about what his future might look like if Benning remains in charge. I think the probability of him being traded over the next two seasons is pretty high.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

Let's stay on track here please.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

Benning dwells in a vague, confusing world of heuristics. In this cloudy world Bo Horvat is not one of "his guys." He didn't draft him or trade for him. That's a big strike against him. For this reason I think he's always likely to at least look at trading him.

 

[DonnyNucker]

It's a discussion worth having, despite its framing.

I have never really bought that Horvat is in the long term plans of this regime. I think it's worth talking about what his future might look like if Benning remains in charge. I think the probability of him being traded over the next two seasons is pretty high.

Why do you think Horvat will be traded? I don’t think him being a Gillis draft pick is a sufficient reason. It’s one thing to speculate whether or not he should be traded and for what, but to claim that we almost moved him without providing a source is stupid. I can’t find any source naming Horvat in the past and if somebody can present evidence that would be great. Or close the thread. Imo, Horvat isn’t going anywhere. The team has already committed to him and his lack of a letter doesn’t mean anything at this stage

 

[StreetHawk]

It's a discussion worth having, despite its framing.

I have never really bought that Horvat is in the long term plans of this regime. I think it's worth talking about what his future might look like if Benning remains in charge. I think the probability of him being traded over the next two seasons is pretty high.

No regime can ever have “all their own guys”. You have to inherit players.

Canucks don’t have anything proven at C right now. Maybe it’s petersson. But they would need gaudette to emerge too. As for moving Bo and their own first to get Hughes, that’s highly unlikely.

Been a long time since a team traded out of the top spots. Quality over quantity when you’re talking a game changing player.

Cant be married to any player but any move should make sense. And I see very few deals that make sense moving Bo. For Subban, they would be doing exactly what Montreal did when they made that deal by shrinking their window. Weber has 4 years on subban. And subban has 6 years on Bo. When do prime years end for a player? Age 33/34? So subban could give you 4/5 more prime years bs the 10 from Bo? Are you that close to winning?

 

[DonnyNucker]

Benning dwells in a vague, confusing world of heuristics. In this cloudy world Bo Horvat is not one of "his guys." He didn't draft him or trade for him. That's a big strike against him. For this reason I think he's always likely to at least look at trading him.

Were the Canucks anxious to move the Sedins? Edler? Tanev? No. Just because they thought Shink was junk and the coach doesn’t like Hutton isn’t evidence that they are trying to cleanse the team of Gillis players

 

[Melvin]

Were the Canucks anxious to move the Sedins? Edler? Tanev? No. Just because they thought Shink was junk and the coach doesn’t like Hutton isn’t evidence that they are trying to cleanse the team of Gillis players

Don't put words in my mouth please.

It's more of a hunch. I don't think they've ever been sold on Horvat, from some of their comments when they got here, to sticking him on the fourth line with Dorsett to begin the season, to some of the comments made when they were negotiating a contract and now the reluctancy to name him captain.

I think he's their go to trade chit when trying to get guys like Subban and Karlsson and whether or not this ever actually happens depends more on them being able to close a deal.

 

[StreetHawk]

Don't put words in my mouth please.

It's more of a hunch. I don't think they've ever been sold on Horvat, from some of their comments when they got here, to sticking him on the fourth line with Dorsett to begin the season, to some of the comments made when they were negotiating a contract and now the reluctancy to name him captain.

I think he's their go to trade chit when trying to get guys like Subban and Karlsson and whether or not this ever actually happens depends more on them being able to close a deal.

Not like his draft picks have proven anything yet outside of Brock. Virtanen, mccann, juolevi, Tryamkin.

One you have a sure thing you hold it unless you can upgrade. Again with EK and PK it comes down to remaining prime years. If you’re not close yet and you are burning prime years it closes the window down to only around 3 prime years left for them to carry the team.

That’s why I think they need to more a couple more of the kids along. Need to see what their kids can do.

 

[Melvin]

Not like his draft picks have proven anything yet outside of Brock. Virtanen, mccann, juolevi, Tryamkin.

One you have a sure thing you hold it unless you can upgrade. Again with EK and PK it comes down to remaining prime years. If you’re not close yet and you are burning prime years it closes the window down to only around 3 prime years left for them to carry the team.

That’s why I think they need to more a couple more of the kids along. Need to see what their kids can do.

I believe they see Pettersson as 1c and Sutter as 2c

 

[StreetHawk]

I believe they see Pettersson as 1c and Sutter as 2c

EP is not proven yet. And might not be a C. See how long they leave him on the wing for.

Sutter, in no ideal world is he a 2C. Through only their rose coloured glasses.

No player is not tradable. But the Canucks are definitely not in a situation where they can afford to give up the younger player.

 

[GetFocht]

The Canucks will make every possible opportunity happen for Pettersson to play as a C. Benning and Green have said it on record they want the game to flow through him and he has shown the ability to be a game breaker. Pettersson also isn't a typical prospect, he's a super talent that will likely thrive in his first year.

by end of season, our centers should be:

Pettersson
Horvat
Gaudette
Beagle

 

[me2]

More likely Benning wants Sutter to step up. He's seems like the sort who thinks a veteran need to be the captain.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Don't put words in my mouth please.

It's more of a hunch. I don't think they've ever been sold on Horvat, from some of their comments when they got here, to sticking him on the fourth line with Dorsett to begin the season, to some of the comments made when they were negotiating a contract and now the reluctancy to name him captain.

I think he's their go to trade chit when trying to get guys like Subban and Karlsson and whether or not this ever actually happens depends more on them being able to close a deal.

My post was not addressed to you. HollywoodBurrows mentioned that he wasn’t drafted by the Canucks so he wasn’t their guy. Are you responding to the wrong post from me?

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Surely there is another option between naming Horvat as Captain and trading him. With a bunch of young players and prospects coming up and veteran depth, perhaps the Canucks feel it best to allow leadership to display itself organically in a lineup without the Sedins instead of pencilling Horvat in as Captain right away.

 

[StreetHawk]

Surely there is another option between naming Horvat as Captain and trading him. With a bunch of young players and prospects coming up and veteran depth, perhaps the Canucks feel it best to allow leadership to display itself organically in a lineup without the Sedins instead of pencilling Horvat in as Captain right away.

I would go a year without one. Let some time pass between hank and the next guy. What’s the harm?

 

[iFan]

It's a discussion worth having, despite its framing.

I have never really bought that Horvat is in the long term plans of this regime. I think it's worth talking about what his future might look like if Benning remains in charge. I think the probability of him being traded over the next two seasons is pretty high.

How is Horvat not in the long term plans? This is a player that you win a cup with... Every team would LOVE to have Horvat and the qualities he brings.

 

[iFan]

The Canucks will make every possible opportunity happen for Pettersson to play as a C. Benning and Green have said it on record they want the game to flow through him and he has shown the ability to be a game breaker. Pettersson also isn't a typical prospect, he's a super talent that will likely thrive in his first year.

by end of season, our centers should be:

Pettersson
Horvat
Gaudette
Beagle

I really don’t buy into Pettersson being a center in the NHL, especially at his age, that’s what we need him to be but I’m not sure that’s who he can be for us.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I’m a Canuck’s fan, and posting on a Canuck’s board. I have posted my bias outlook before here. So, yes I’m serious about how great Bo is. I just don’t understand all the negative stuff, and (kind of) hate for our players, and management. Sure we are now at the bottom of the league, but (with super great young players like Bo) I think our future looks very bright indeed.
I don’t like Couture, and really think Draisatl is way overpaid.

This isn't about being positive or negative, it's accuracy. Praising Bo and deriding Draisailt and Couture doesn't make sense. They are clearly better players. It's fine to like Bo. It's also fair to dislike Draisaitl and Couture as a matter of preference, but if we are evaluating them all on merit, your statements do not hold in any factual sense.

Be a fan. Be the most positive fan you want to be. At the same time, allow others to be negative if that is their conclusion.

In the end, an overly positive or negative opinion gets found out for what it is here. It's just a function of a board that wants/seeks truth rather than fiction, even if the fiction helps your fandom. Everything has a place here.

I'd put Horvat as like the 30th best centerman in the NHL. Or somewhere in the 28-32 range.

If you trade him, you are just hoping another centerman turns out like him.

Intriguing statement. I did a work up based upon the top C scorers this past year, excluding the Cs that played primarily on the wing. These are the Cs I feel are better than Horvat (no research done), give or take a few:

1. McDavid
2. Malkin
3. Mackinnon
4. Kopitar
5. Crosby
6. Stamkos
7. Tavares
8. Kuznetsov
9. Seguin
10. Barkov
11. E. Staal
12. Trocheck
13. Schenn
14. Draisaitl
15. Pavelski
16. Monahan
17. Eichel
18. Matthews
19. Bergeron
20. Larkin
21. Couture
22. Getzlaf
23. Scheifele
24. Kadri
25. Johansen
26. Stastny
27. Toews
28. Turris


Here are the ones that could be argued to be better:

Stepan
Duchene
O'Reilly
Backlund
J. Staal
Koivu
Zibanejad
Dubois
Nugent-Hopkins
Johnson

These are the Cs that have only played one season at C, or have performed as a high end C for one season:

Point
Schenn
Karlsson
Barzal
Hischier

How do you see it?

 

[Tables of Stats]

Intriguing statement. I did a work up based upon the top C scorers this past year, excluding the Cs that played primarily on the wing. These are the Cs I feel are better than Horvat (no research done), give or take a few:

Just for some added perspective, Horvat was 45th when accounting for points per game with a 40 game minimum while his actual points total placed him outside of the top 50 last season with the same minimum games play filter set. I'll still argue that with better linemates he'd be further up the list but it's tough to argue that he's not more of a 1B type without another step forward in his game.

 

[Breakers]

This isn't about being positive or negative, it's accuracy. Praising Bo and deriding Draisailt and Couture doesn't make sense. They are clearly better players. It's fine to like Bo. It's also fair to dislike Draisaitl and Couture as a matter of preference, but if we are evaluating them all on merit, your statements do not hold in any factual sense.

Be a fan. Be the most positive fan you want to be. At the same time, allow others to be negative if that is their conclusion.

In the end, an overly positive or negative opinion gets found out for what it is here. It's just a function of a board that wants/seeks truth rather than fiction, even if the fiction helps your fandom. Everything has a place here.





Intriguing statement. I did a work up based upon the top C scorers this past year, excluding the Cs that played primarily on the wing. These are the Cs I feel are better than Horvat (no research done), give or take a few:

1. McDavid
2. Malkin
3. Mackinnon
4. Kopitar
5. Crosby
6. Stamkos
7. Tavares
8. Kuznetsov
9. Seguin
10. Barkov
11. E. Staal
12. Trocheck
13. Schenn
14. Draisaitl
15. Pavelski
16. Monahan
17. Eichel
18. Matthews
19. Bergeron
20. Larkin
21. Couture
22. Getzlaf
23. Scheifele
24. Kadri
25. Johansen
26. Stastny
27. Toews
28. Turris


Here are the ones that could be argued to be better:

Stepan
Duchene
O'Reilly
Backlund
J. Staal
Koivu
Zibanejad
Dubois
Nugent-Hopkins
Johnson


How do you see it?

-32nd among all centers in Points Per Game
-27 among all centers in Primary Points per Game
-22nd among all center in Primary points per 60
-20th among all centers in Goals per 60 is 5v5
- His most telling stat is is his GAR (goal above replacement) which puts him at 20 among centers.
- He took the 20th most faceoffs
- 26th in face-off percentage

He has a very strong case to be around the 30th best centerman in the NHL

Also Kadri sucks and is incredibly overrated. Horvat is better than him in most categories except goals. He drives play more 5v5 and does a hell of a lot more for his team.
If there is one hill I am going to die on it is that Kadri is overrated. Leaf fans call him a 1C.

 

[Horse McHindu]

This isn't about being positive or negative, it's accuracy. Praising Bo and deriding Draisailt and Couture doesn't make sense. They are clearly better players. It's fine to like Bo. It's also fair to dislike Draisaitl and Couture as a matter of preference, but if we are evaluating them all on merit, your statements do not hold in any factual sense.

Be a fan. Be the most positive fan you want to be. At the same time, allow others to be negative if that is their conclusion.

In the end, an overly positive or negative opinion gets found out for what it is here. It's just a function of a board that wants/seeks truth rather than fiction, even if the fiction helps your fandom. Everything has a place here.





Intriguing statement. I did a work up based upon the top C scorers this past year, excluding the Cs that played primarily on the wing. These are the Cs I feel are better than Horvat (no research done), give or take a few:

1. McDavid
2. Malkin
3. Mackinnon
4. Kopitar
5. Crosby
6. Stamkos
7. Tavares
8. Kuznetsov
9. Seguin
10. Barkov
11. E. Staal
12. Trocheck
13. Schenn
14. Draisaitl
15. Pavelski
16. Monahan
17. Eichel
18. Matthews
19. Bergeron
20. Larkin
21. Couture
22. Getzlaf
23. Scheifele
24. Kadri
25. Johansen
26. Stastny
27. Toews
28. Turris


Here are the ones that could be argued to be better:

Stepan
Duchene
O'Reilly
Backlund
J. Staal
Koivu
Zibanejad
Dubois
Nugent-Hopkins
Johnson

These are the Cs that have only played one season at C, or have performed as a high end C for one season:

Point
Schenn
Karlsson
Barzal
Hischier

How do you see it?

That’s an incredibly good list, but I’d still take Crosby over Kopitar.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Neither.

Horvat won’t be traded and won’t be captain. No clue why everyone thinks he will. Has never even worn a letter in 4 years here. No captain next year. 3 A’s.

Gudbransen
Elder
Sutter.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Neither.

Horvat won’t be traded and won’t be captain. No clue why everyone thinks he will. Has never even worn a letter in 4 years here. No captain next year. 3 A’s.

Gudbransen
Elder
Sutter.

I think Horvat and Boeser will get A’s next season......with Sutter being named captain. Sutter is the right choice in my opinion. He’s outspoken, a leader amongst the younger generation in the lockerroom (many players have said this during their time in Vancouver), and is seasoned enough to handle the media pressure.

I think he should be named captain.

Let Horvat and Boeser focus on hockey and improving their games while the Canucks are still rebuilding/a work in progress.

Keep in mind that Naslund and Henrik didn’t become captains of the Canucks until they were around 25-26.....when the Canucks started to trend upwards.

Horvat’s time to be a C here will come. It’s not a matter of “if” it’s a matter of “when.”

Sutter is far and away the correct choice for next captain.

 

[Bleach Clean]

-32nd among all centers in Points Per Game
-27 among all centers in Primary Points per Game
-22nd among all center in Primary points per 60
-20th among all centers in Goals per 60 is 5v5
- His most telling stat is is his GAR (goal above replacement) which puts him at 20 among centers.
- He took the 20th most faceoffs
- 26th in face-off percentage

He has a very strong case to be around the 30th best centerman in the NHL

Also Kadri sucks and is incredibly overrated. Horvat is better than him in most categories except goals. He drives play more 5v5 and does a hell of a lot more for his team.
If there is one hill I am going to die on it is that Kadri is overrated. Leaf fans call him a 1C.

I think Kadri is overrated as well, so nothing to contest there.

Can you link to your numbers? I would appreciate it.

The advanced stats you have used place him as a strong scorer, but how are you factoring defensive play into your analysis?

Last, with the list I have posted, he could fit into the 28-32 range. I'm just curious as to how you see his ranking. Care to put together a list?