Blues Trade Proposals 2020-21

[simon IC]

More to your previous point @simon IC I think management is accepting that we don't have the personel available to play that grinding, shutdown defensive style we won the cup with.

I think they're trying to retool on the fly to make the best of the ROR, Schenn, Faulk, Tarasenko, Perron and Parayko contracts over the next 2-3 years. Hoping they can mold the team into something else that will be successful for another deep run or two.

We don't have the horses to fight fire with fire vs EDM, TBL, TOR, COL, FLA or a healthy BOS team... But, I think management is hoping we can be middle of the pack and get hot with some growth from Thomas, Kyrou and maybe a forward addition (if we know Steen is truly out for the season).

I don't think this hybrid approach is going to pay off, unless Binnington regains his 2018-19 form. Without a solid backend, we're not going anywhere in the playoffs, even if we're suddenly scoring in the top 5 teams of the league. I don't see our current dmen personel keeping us out of the 12-22 GA ranks.

Completely agreed.

 

[BlueKnight]

Completely agreed.

Seconded

 

[sfvega]

I feel like there is a lot to the theory that the Blues are trying to serve two masters by maintaining their identity as a big, tough defensive team but also adding a lot of leaner, skill players. Even in drafting guys like Fabbri, Tage, and Bokk who ultimately ended up traded. It isn't as if they've only flipped those guys for bigger, defensive-minded players. Our drafts have mostly been going away from what we've been in the past, including Kyrou and Perunovich. We appear to be trying to cobble together a hybrid of the old identity while also not being left behind in the new game of speed and skill. And instead of being able to do both, we're probably closer to being neither sadly.

 

[Frenzy31]

I feel like there is a lot to the theory that the Blues are trying to serve two masters by maintaining their identity as a big, tough defensive team but also adding a lot of leaner, skill players. Even in drafting guys like Fabbri, Tage, and Bokk who ultimately ended up traded. It isn't as if they've only flipped those guys for bigger, defensive-minded players. Our drafts have mostly been going away from what we've been in the past, including Kyrou and Perunovich. We appear to be trying to cobble together a hybrid of the old identity while also not being left behind in the new game of speed and skill. And instead of being able to do both, we're probably closer to being neither sadly.

Trading prospects that fell out of favor or aren't developing has little to do with team identity, but maybe issues with drafting (yes this is part of a Bill Armstrong issue).

I don't understand why everyone feels like we are going away from being physical. It isn't like Pie was a hitting machine, Krug will hit more then he did and Joel Edmonson, well he couldn't even carve our a role as a number 6 dman on our team - on a side that had Jaybo, Gunner, and Dunn. Can't beat out a guy who misses 50% of the games, I don't know what to tell you. Yes we are more of a transition d team then we had during the cup run, but only slightly. I think we may be more balanced, LH and RD on d.

Physical, we added Clifford, to go along with Sunny D, Barby, Macattack, Blaise. Kyrou for Tank, well it wasn't like Tank had been near as physical as he had been the first few years in the league. We still have a very defensive minded team. We have 3 dmen who can clear the crease and fall into that D first role, CP, Scandella, and Bortuzzo (remember him) and can play physical. Plus puck movers in Krug, Faulk, and Dunn.

 

[sfvega]

Trading prospects that fell out of favor or aren't developing has little to do with team identity, but maybe issues with drafting (yes this is part of a Bill Armstrong issue).

I don't understand why everyone feels like we are going away from being physical. It isn't like Pie was a hitting machine, Krug will hit more then he did and Joel Edmonson, well he couldn't even carve our a role as a number 6 dman on our team - on a side that had Jaybo, Gunner, and Dunn. Can't beat out a guy who misses 50% of the games, I don't know what to tell you. Yes we are more of a transition d team then we had during the cup run, but only slightly. I think we may be more balanced, LH and RD on d.

Physical, we added Clifford, to go along with Sunny D, Barby, Macattack, Blaise. Kyrou for Tank, well it wasn't like Tank had been near as physical as he had been the first few years in the league. We still have a very defensive minded team. We have 3 dmen who can clear the crease and fall into that D first role, CP, Scandella, and Bortuzzo (remember him) and can play physical. Plus puck movers in Krug, Faulk, and Dunn.

Trading prospects isn't the point, it is the skill set of the prospects traded to show that guys like Kyrou or Perunovich aren't outliers. We're drafting more and more guys like that.

Also, when you point to guys like Bortuzzo and Clifford and MacMac, those are bottom of the roster guys.

The core of our team looks very different in what they bring to the table than 5 years ago. Petro wasn't physical (and a lot of our fanbase was very critical of that, but that's here nor there) but he was big and he was a great defender for a long time. Faulk is known to have less than average defense and no physicality. Perunovich is similar but smaller. Krug is smaller and only average to slightly above average defensively, but more physical.

The difference in who we're bringing in is pretty easy to see, even if people want to make it more difficult than it is. And for the record, I do think we would have had to change eventually or risk being a slower team getting lapped in an offense-oriented league. But again, I think we're too far in the middle. We project to be a slightly above average defensive team this season and a pretty below-average offensive team, and worse than that in a couple years. We're not big or very defensively sound on defense. We don't have shot blockers everywhere. We lost two guys who were trees who were very hard to get past and we added two guys known for offense.

 

[Blueston]

Trading prospects isn't the point, it is the skill set of the prospects traded to show that guys like Kyrou or Perunovich aren't outliers. We're drafting more and more guys like that.

Also, when you point to guys like Bortuzzo and Clifford and MacMac, those are bottom of the roster guys.

The core of our team looks very different in what they bring to the table than 5 years ago. Petro wasn't physical (and a lot of our fanbase was very critical of that, but that's here nor there) but he was big and he was a great defender for a long time. Faulk is known to have less than average defense and no physicality. Perunovich is similar but smaller. Krug is smaller and only average to slightly above average defensively, but more physical.

The difference in who we're bringing in is pretty easy to see, even if people want to make it more difficult than it is. And for the record, I do think we would have had to change eventually or risk being a slower team getting lapped in an offense-oriented league. But again, I think we're too far in the middle. We project to be a slightly above average defensive team this season and a pretty below-average offensive team, and worse than that in a couple years. We're not big or very defensively sound on defense. We don't have shot blockers everywhere. We lost two guys who were trees who were very hard to get past and we added two guys known for offense.

A few weeks ago everyone complained we drafted too many Bluesy players instead of speed and skill. Now folks are upset we have too many speed and skill? Reality is every team needs both and last few Cup champs demonstrate that. Our model seems to be more skill on D to transition puck out of D zone to O where our size and strength wear teams down.

 

[sfvega]

A few weeks ago everyone complained we drafted too many Bluesy players instead of speed and skill. Now folks are upset we have too many speed and skill? Reality is every team needs both and last few Cup champs demonstrate that. Our model seems to be more skill on D to transition puck out of D zone to O where our size and strength wear teams down.

I never complained that we drafted too many Bluesy player. I do think we overdrafted Neighbors though.

I've stated my opinion pretty clearly. I don't think we drafted too many skill players. I think we've lost our identity by trying to do both simultaneously, while not doing either particularly well. We lost what we did well enough to win a Cup while not becoming one of the top half of the league's offenses IMO. We'll damn sure see what this team is soon enough, but I will ssy that I'm not exactly excited about the next 3 years.

 

[MissouriMook]

I get the idea of "identity" and that we have typically been more of a "heavy" team that plays physical and is regarded as tough to play against, but you can only stay with that so long. The league is getting faster and faster and at some point you realize that you can't hit what you can't catch. I think the current direction of the team is to get better in transition and "play faster" as our roster is eventually built more around that element, but without completely walking away from the idea that playing a physical style and getting faster don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I am far more concerned about whether or not the coach and the GM are on the same page. As long as the GM is building a roster of players that can be deployed in a way that the coach plans to use them, we should be fine. The parity between play style and roster construction, to me, is far more important than the actual style we play, so long as we are not clinging to a play style that can no longer succeed based on changes in the way the game is played throughout the league.

 

[CaliforniaBlues310]

The whole identity thing is why I think they’re going to trade Dunn, and move Niko into that spot.

Parayko, Scandella, Bortuzzo, and Mikkola all bring a damn good amount of size back there. Also, Faulk may be 6 foot even, but he’s still 217 lbs....so not exactly tiny either.

People need to quit acting like the sky is falling, and that we’re some small team all of a sudden.

I’d argue that we’ve only gotten more physical with losing Petro, and gaining Krug/Clifford.

 

[MissouriMook]

I keep coming back to keeping Dunn if we can bring him back at a reasonable price and bringing in a guy like Athanasiou if he can be had for a price similar to what Galchenyuk got today. At that point, you're not gifting a spot to Kyrou to start the season and forcing him to beat out one of Blais, DLR or MacMac for a roster spot. On the D side, bringing back Dunn would almost certainly mean both Mikkola and Perunovich are in the AHL (which looks to be starting in FEB) to start the season. IF Kyrou can force his way into the Top 9, you can spread the speed of Thomas, AA and Kyrou around and it might look something like:

Schwartz-Thomas-Schenn
Athanasiou-ROR-Perron
Sanford-Bozak-Kyrou
Blais-Barby-Sunny (Clifford, MacMac/DLR extras)

Krug-Parayko
Scandella-Faulk
Dunn-Bortuzzo/Gunnarsson

 

[simon IC]

I keep coming back to keeping Dunn if we can bring him back at a reasonable price and bringing in a guy like Athanasiou if he can be had for a price similar to what Galchenyuk got today. At that point, you're not gifting a spot to Kyrou to start the season and forcing him to beat out one of Blais, DLR or MacMac for a roster spot. On the D side, bringing back Dunn would almost certainly mean both Mikkola and Perunovich are in the AHL (which looks to be starting in FEB) to start the season. IF Kyrou can force his way into the Top 9, you can spread the speed of Thomas, AA and Kyrou around and it might look something like:

Schwartz-Thomas-Schenn
Athanasiou-ROR-Perron
Sanford-Bozak-Kyrou
Blais-Barby-Sunny (Clifford, MacMac/DLR extras)

Krug-Parayko
Scandella-Faulk
Dunn-Bortuzzo/Gunnarsson

I think it is likely that that defense corps is what we start the season with. We just better hope and pray that the forwards adjust to the fast transition game, and are also prepared to do more lifting defensively because that defense looks really, really porous to me.

 

[BlueKnight]

I get the idea of "identity" and that we have typically been more of a "heavy" team that plays physical and is regarded as tough to play against, but you can only stay with that so long. The league is getting faster and faster and at some point you realize that you can't hit what you can't catch. I think the current direction of the team is to get better in transition and "play faster" as our roster is eventually built more around that element, but without completely walking away from the idea that playing a physical style and getting faster don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I am far more concerned about whether or not the coach and the GM are on the same page. As long as the GM is building a roster of players that can be deployed in a way that the coach plans to use them, we should be fine. The parity between play style and roster construction, to me, is far more important than the actual style we play, so long as we are not clinging to a play style that can no longer succeed based on changes in the way the game is played throughout the league.

You bring up a good point about wheather the GM and coach are on the same page. This is what I'm kind of afraid of, I have a feeling the changes in personnel that Army is making and with Berube's coaching style, I feel this is a square peg, round hole situation. I like Berube i think he is a great coach. The team the won the cup was a perfect match for his system, Will Berube be able to evolve and coach a more offensive style. I don't think he can but no matter what Berube has a big test infront of him.

Schwartz-Thomas-Schenn
Athanasiou-ROR-Perron
Sanford-Bozak-Kyrou
Blais-Barby-Sunny (Clifford, MacMac/DLR extras)

Krug-Parayko
Scandella-Faulk
Dunn-Bortuzzo/Gunnarsson

That D oof. I don't love it.

 

[CaliforniaBlues310]

I want nothing to do with him. If Chief thought Fabbri’s defense was bad...woof I could imagine how this would go...

 

[Blueston]

I want nothing to do with him. If Chief thought Fabbri’s defense was bad...woof I could imagine how this would go...

I presume you are referring to AA? If so, 100% agree.

 

[CaliforniaBlues310]

I presume you are referring to AA? If so, 100% agree.

Yessir

 

[Stealth JD]

If Vegas is adamant about needing to shed salary, would you take MaxPac for 3 yrs x $5M/yr, if VGK would retain $2M? Maybe send a 4th rounder in the process? On one hand, you eliminate the benefit of Bozak coming off the books for next season, but on the flip side you've got somebody who fits well into the age of this core and only has 3-more years remaining. He still has game left, after leading Vegas in scoring last year and would be a nice boost to the offense with Tarasenko's effectiveness questionable and somebody getting sacrificed to the Kracken next season. I'd actually prefer him to Hoffman if we were talking about the same amount of $$$.

Maybe send them Gunnarsson in the process, and save nearly $2M in cap and free up a spot of Mikkola or Perunovich...though, Gunnarsson & a 4th for Max Pac with $2M retained seems a bit insulting, so maybe swap the 4th for a prospect like Laferriere or Kostin.

 

[Beauterham]

If Vegas is adamant about needing to shed salary, would you take MaxPac for 3 yrs x $5M/yr, if VGK would retain $2M? Maybe send a 4th rounder in the process? On one hand, you eliminate the benefit of Bozak coming off the books for next season, but on the flip side you've got somebody who fits well into the age of this core and only has 3-more years remaining. He still has game left, after leading Vegas in scoring last year and would be a nice boost to the offense with Tarasenko's effectiveness questionable and somebody getting sacrificed to the Kracken next season. I'd actually prefer him to Hoffman if we were talking about the same amount of $$$.

Maybe send them Gunnarsson in the process, and save nearly $2M in cap and free up a spot of Mikkola or Perunovich...though, Gunnarsson & a 4th for Max Pac with $2M retained seems a bit insulting, so maybe swap the 4th for a prospect like Laferriere or Kostin.

I'm not really a fan of Pacioretty, even if they retain 2 million on him. If we want to make use of Vegas capissues I'd rather target Reilly Smith. Vegas already traded Stastny and Schmidt for less then marketvalue, if they can't find a taker for Marchessault/Martinez/Fleury/Pacioretty, we might do the same with Smith. Due to the current situation there aren't a lot of clubs with capspace to 'help' Vegas. Due to LTIR we're one of the few that can. Reilly has a contract for this and the next season at 5 million AAV that has a M-NTC only for this year. His contract expires at the same at the moment Parayko needs a new one.

 

[sfvega]

If we end up out west, not sure Vegas would want to deal to someone in the same division.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

If we end up out west, not sure Vegas would want to deal to someone in the same division.

I think Vegas is going to be beyond those kinds of preferences with the need to balance the Cap.

 

[sfvega]

I think Vegas is going to be beyond those kinds of preferences with the need to balance the Cap.

You think the market for Patches at 3 yr/3 mil would be that bad?

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

You think the market for Patches at 3 yr/3 mil would be that bad?

I don’t know, but the teams that can take on cap are pretty limited right now. If Vegas had reasonable options to address this, they’d have already done so. I just don’t think they’re going to let temporary divisional alignment be an overriding factor. I guess all else being equal they’ll prefer to trade to the East, sure. I just don’t envision a market where there are multiple bidders.

 

[Brockon]

I don’t know, but the teams that can take on cap are pretty limited right now. If Vegas had reasonable options to address this, they’d have already done so. I just don’t think they’re going to let temporary divisional alignment be an overriding factor. I guess all else being equal they’ll prefer to trade to the East, sure. I just don’t envision a market where there are multiple bidders.

The only realistic bidders are Detroit, Nashville and New Jersey. Maybe the Rangers and LA.

Nashville needs the scoring.

Detroit and New Jersey don't really make much sense to add Patches unless it's at virtually no cost.

The rangers have a bunch of performance bonuses to pay, so their cap numbers are misleading.

LA has so many forwards already, adding another one doesn't make sense with where they are in their rebuild.

I mean, Nashville is the only team in a position to acquire Patches that needs him. But with Vegas having painted themselves into a corner, I don't expect Poile to offer much.

@sfvega

 

[Eldon Reid]

The only realistic bidders are Detroit, Nashville and New Jersey. Maybe the Rangers and LA.

Nashville needs the scoring.

Detroit and New Jersey don't really make much sense to add Patches unless it's at virtually no cost.

The rangers have a bunch of performance bonuses to pay, so their cap numbers are misleading.

LA has so many forwards already, adding another one doesn't make sense with where they are in their rebuild.

I mean, Nashville is the only team in a position to acquire Patches that needs him. But with Vegas having painted themselves into a corner, I don't expect Poile to offer much.

@sfvega

Nashville is most realistically team by far and assuming Patches wants to go to a team that will be more in a win now mode.

The issue for Vegas is Patches at 7 AAV for next 3 years when you have a player like Hoffman still on the market. I think Preds would go for Hoffman at say 3-4 years at 5ish AAV or Patches.

Honestly for me, I'm starting to think Vegas isn't the best place for players right. Patches gets traded at start of 2018 season and now they want to try to trade him already. It seems like they do a lot of moving on from players quickly.

 

[BlueKnight]

Honestly for me, I'm starting to think Vegas isn't the best place for players right. Patches gets traded at start of 2018 season and now they want to try to trade him already. It seems like they do a lot of moving on from players quickly.

I agree get a shiny new toy and kick them to the curb soon after. In 2 years Vegas will want to trade Petro if they don't win. It will be just like the OEL situation with Arizona.

 

[Spektre]

Wonder if Army will trade Steen’s contract