Blues Trade Proposals 2019-20 - Part III

[simon IC]

Most users on this forum aren't going to like this idea, but I understand where you're coming from. Due to Covid-19 a lot of teams will be cashstrapped and the salary cap will not go up the next couple of years. It got a lot harder to trade guys like Allen and Bozak, if there's even a chance to trade both, which I'm utterly sceptical about if we're not able to retain on both for quite a bit. There are some teams that might be interested in Allen if you attach Dunn to the deal (as we might have a hard time signing him to an extension anyway).

I'm more and more convinced that if we want to keep Petro AND be able to resign Parayko, Binnington, Thomas, Barbashev, Sanford and Kyrou next year we might have to make a move that will feel like a kick in the balls on the short term to secure we stay a contender on the long term. Steens 5.75 million and Bozaks 5 million coming off the books at the end of next season isn't going to be enough (I see Allen as a must trade this summer) and Faulk is untradeable at the moment (don't expect Seattle to pick him up either, even if we bribe them with our 2021 first). Trading Schwartz is a realistic possibility although the thought alone feels bad. However, Schwartz is a UFA in a year, he has stretches where he has trouble getting on the scoreboard and is injury prone.

Just to reiterate: I absolutely do not want to trade Schwartz, but due to how the hockey world changed after Covid-19, I wouldn't be surprised if we will HAVE to if we want to keep Petro and be able to sign our other players to improved deals.


- Allen + Dunn for a 1st + another pick or prospect*
- Schwartz for a 1st + another pick or prospect*
- Sign Petro to the 'Roman Josi-deal' (7x9 million)
-----------------------------------------------------------
This will leave us at aprox. 1.2 million under the cap.

At the end of next season the contracts of Bozak, Steen and Gunnarsson will come off the books (12 million-ish), so we have enough space to sign Parayko, Binnington, Thomas, Barbashev, Sanford and Kyrou to new and improved deals.


* (pick/prospect depends on the 1st)

I completely agree with you. On the trade boards, I have had to explain a few times that I don't want to trade either Dunn or Schwartz. I am just acknowledging that it may be necessary to trade one or two players that we like if we want to keep Pietrangelo. Dunn and Schwartz make the most sense, both in terms of their contracts and their replaceability. Some seem to think that it will be easy just to trade Allen, Steen, or Bozak. I am not as confident about that.

 

[BlueDream]

I too would keep Schwartz over Tarasenko. Now let me be clear: I do NOT want to trade either of them and we need to do everything in our power to keep both. Losing either would be a huge loss.

But in deciding between the 2, I just don’t think it’s a coincidence that we play like shit when guys like Schwartz and Sundqvist are out of the lineup. They are similar in the way that they are high-motor guys that do everything. Beastly on the forecheck, hounding pucks, creating turnovers, great defensively, etc. I don’t see how we are replacing Schwartz. Hard to replace Tarasenko too but you can score by committee. If you lose one of your best all around players that’s gonna be harder to replace.

But again I think we can and will keep both. We can move other guys. Bozak, Allen, Steen, Gunnarsson are all UFAs in a year no matter what and a couple will probably be traded before that.

I think we will have to part with Dunn in the near future as well, which I’d be okay with. My current prediction is we give him a short bridge deal and trade him in the 2021 offseason, replacing him with Perunovich and Mikkola.

 

[Mike Liut]

I too would keep Schwartz over Tarasenko. Now let me be clear: I do NOT want to trade either of them and we need to do everything in our power to keep both. Losing either would be a huge loss.

But in deciding between the 2, I just don’t think it’s a coincidence that we play like shit when guys like Schwartz and Sundqvist are out of the lineup. They are similar in the way that they are high-motor guys that do everything. Beastly on the forecheck, hounding pucks, creating turnovers, great defensively, etc. I don’t see how we are replacing Schwartz. Hard to replace Tarasenko too but you can score by committee. If you lose one of your best all around players that’s gonna be harder to replace.

But again I think we can and will keep both. We can move other guys. Bozak, Allen, Steen, Gunnarsson are all UFAs in a year no matter what and a couple will probably be traded before that.

I think we will have to part with Dunn in the near future as well, which I’d be okay with. My current prediction is we give him a short bridge deal and trade him in the 2021 offseason, replacing him with Perunovich and Mikkola.

I agree totally. This team is built more like a Schwartz style team. I’d hate to lose either one, but I’d pick Schwartz too. And I agree about Dunn. I think he’s the one who gets moved at some point with Mikkola and Perunovich on the horizon. As much as I’d like to keep this band together, I just don’t think it’s feasible. But moving Bozak, Allen and Steen will help.

 

[Spektre]

Schwartz is a legitimate top 6 player but c’mon,, there’s no possible way I would choose him over Tarasenko who is one of the best goal scorers in the league.

 

[Mike Liut]

Schwartz is a legitimate top 6 player but c’mon,, there’s no possible way I would choose him over Tarasenko who is one of the best goal scorers in the league.

A 25g scorer vs a 35g scorer, but the 25g plays tenacious without the puck. It’s closer than you think

 

[The Note]

Let me preface this all by saying: I agree with those who say the Blues are undoubtedly a better team with both Tarasenko and Schwartz and also; I think there are a variety of ways to clear salary without moving Tarasenko, which is why I jumped into this to begin with. I guess no one has really tossed out what they would expect in return, but as I said earlier, I can't imagine any realistic offer that concurrently makes the Blues younger/better setup for the future without making them worse right now.

With that said, it's not a straight apples to apples comparison of who you'd rather keep between Schwartz and Tarasenko. The choice doesn't exist in a vacuum. Their contract situation certainly factors in and is the reason why people (myself included) have at least thought about exploring the market for Schwartz -which is a far cry from actively wanting him gone- since Schwartz will be due a nice raise as he turns 29 and could conceivably bolt after next year anyway. And if Tarasenko's shoulder gives you pause, I think it's fair to point out that Schwartz isn't exactly an iron man out there himself.

I feel like the pendulum has swung too far the other way on Tarasenko. For a while he was probably overrated, as he was never the best player at his position or one of the best in the league, but sometimes got discussed as such. But now you'd think he's just some guy. Since he came into the league he is 7th overall in G/60 at 5-on-5, 12th in both GPG and in goals scored. He's not the most complete player, but frankly, who cares? The Blues have had -and with Armstrong as GM- will always have, tons of 2 way gritty players. Tarasenko is getting paid to provide offense and score goals, which he does at a pretty exceptional rate.

 

[Frenzy31]

Let me preface this all by saying: I agree with those who say the Blues are undoubtedly a better team with both Tarasenko and Schwartz and also; I think there are a variety of ways to clear salary without moving Tarasenko, which is why I jumped into this to begin with. I guess no one has really tossed out what they would expect in return, but as I said earlier, I can't imagine any realistic offer that concurrently makes the Blues younger/better setup for the future without making them worse right now.

With that said, it's not a straight apples to apples comparison of who you'd rather keep between Schwartz and Tarasenko. The choice doesn't exist in a vacuum. Their contract situation certainly factors in and is the reason why people (myself included) have at least thought about exploring the market for Schwartz -which is a far cry from actively wanting him gone- since Schwartz will be due a nice raise as he turns 29 and could conceivably bolt after next year anyway. And if Tarasenko's shoulder gives you pause, I think it's fair to point out that Schwartz isn't exactly an iron man out there himself.

I feel like the pendulum has swung too far the other way on Tarasenko. For a while he was probably overrated, as he was never the best player at his position or one of the best in the league, but sometimes got discussed as such. But now you'd think he's just some guy. Since he came into the league he is 7th overall in G/60 at 5-on-5, 12th in both GPG and in goals scored. He's not the most complete player, but frankly, who cares? The Blues have had -and with Armstrong as GM- will always have, tons of 2 way gritty players. Tarasenko is getting paid to provide offense and score goals, which he does at a pretty exceptional rate.

Schwartz hasn't had multiple surgeries on the same shoulder so I don't think you can compare injury history. The shoulder thing should be concerning. Contact should be considered - and you are correct in stating that. BUT, I don't see Schwartz making more then Tarasenko. And I also point out Tarasenko would bringing in a lot more then a mid to late first rounder plus b prospect as he has longer on his contact and wouldn't be viewed as a rental.

Schwartz isn't good because he is just a two way player, it is because dogs the puck and creates a lot of offensive zone turnovers.

 

[Stealth JD]

Schwartz hasn't had multiple surgeries on the same shoulder so I don't think you can compare injury history. The shoulder thing should be concerning. Contact should be considered - and you are correct in stating that. BUT, I don't see Schwartz making more then Tarasenko. And I also point out Tarasenko would bringing in a lot more then a mid to late first rounder plus b prospect as he has longer on his contact and wouldn't be viewed as a rental.

Schwartz isn't good because he is just a two way player, it is because dogs the puck and creates a lot of offensive zone turnovers.

I had already assumed Schwartz would get the Schenn contract...albeit maybe 6 or 7-years instead of 8, but the Covid-cap-crunch is going to squeeze this team's ability to keep everyone around.

 

[Mike Liut]

I want Petro, Schwartz, Parayko and Dunn all signed long term. Am I greedy? Hell yes

 

[TheBluePenguin]

I want Petro, Schwartz, Parayko and Dunn all signed long term. Am I greedy? Hell yes

So you are saying you want...

 

[The Note]

Schwartz hasn't had multiple surgeries on the same shoulder so I don't think you can compare injury history. The shoulder thing should be concerning. Contact should be considered - and you are correct in stating that. BUT, I don't see Schwartz making more then Tarasenko. And I also point out Tarasenko would bringing in a lot more then a mid to late first rounder plus b prospect as he has longer on his contact and wouldn't be viewed as a rental.

Schwartz isn't good because he is just a two way player, it is because dogs the puck and creates a lot of offensive zone turnovers.

Whether it’s the same injury or not, the fact of the matter is Schwartz has missed a lot of time during his prime due to injury. Up until this year, he hadn’t played more than 70 games since 16-17 and he’s never played a full 82 games. I don’t see how signing someone at 29 long term with his injury history isn’t just as, if not more, concerning than Tarasenko’s possible shoulder deterioration.

I think you and I just don’t agree on the value Tarasenko provides currently and into the future, particularly with his decent salary and limited term. Again, I’m not saying Vlad is completely untouchable, but I cannot see a team offering something that makes it worth the Blues’ while.

 

[MissouriMook]

Whether it’s the same injury or not, the fact of the matter is Schwartz has missed a lot of time during his prime due to injury. Up until this year, he hadn’t played more than 70 games since 16-17 and he’s never played a full 82 games. I don’t see how signing someone at 29 long term with his injury history isn’t just as, if not more, concerning than Tarasenko’s possible shoulder deterioration.

I think you and I just don’t agree on the value Tarasenko provides currently and into the future, particularly with his decent salary and limited term. Again, I’m not saying Vlad is completely untouchable, but I cannot see a team offering something that makes it worth the Blues’ while.

This isn't my argument, but I don't think that the injury histories of these two players is in any way apples-to-apples. Tarasenko has had multiple injuries to the same part of his body, one that effects his most valuable asset, his shot. Schwartz has had multiple injuries and, without looking it up, has probably missed about the same number of games, but his injuries were fluky, always different, and in no way indicative of a potential for future related injuries. I don't think we can confidently say that there is no expectation that Tarasenko is going to be prone to future shoulder issues. It is an on-going risk, at least in my mind. With Schwartz, maybe he will continue to be unlucky and maybe he won't.

 

[The Note]

This isn't my argument, but I don't think that the injury histories of these two players is in any way apples-to-apples. Tarasenko has had multiple injuries to the same part of his body, one that effects his most valuable asset, his shot. Schwartz has had multiple injuries and, without looking it up, has probably missed about the same number of games, but his injuries were fluky, always different, and in no way indicative of a potential for future related injuries. I don't think we can confidently say that there is no expectation that Tarasenko is going to be prone to future shoulder issues. It is an on-going risk, at least in my mind. With Schwartz, maybe he will continue to be unlucky and maybe he won't.

My point wasn’t that Tarasenko’s shoulder isn’t a concern moving forward, it very well could be. My point is trading him partly in fear it might one day be a problem doesn’t make much sense to me. And to point at Tarasenko’s shoulder as a concern but not consider Schwartz’s rather lengthy injury history (luck or otherwise) as a concern as he heads into the twilight of his career seems unfair. It’s not apples to apples, but this whole Tarasenko vs. Schwartz debate (which was never my intention in the first place but what this thread has become) isn’t apples to apples.

 

[Beauterham]

Just wondering... what do you guys think the tradevalue of Allen and Bozak is if we retained on their contracts?
Biggest problem trading those guys isn't their performance, statisticly Allen is one of the best 1B/backup goalies in the league while Bozak is a very serviceable 3c that can move up to 2c in case of emergency. Problem is that they're overpayed for their current role.

It's a lot of 'if's', but lets say the cap stays flat, we sign Petro to the Josi deal (7x9million). We trade Gunnarsson, trade the rights to Dunn. Call up Mikkola, Perunovich, Husso and a cheap 14th forward (Poganski?) Then we still have around 1.5 left million that we can retain on salary either on Allen or Bozak as long as we also trade both.

What would Allen or Bozak be worth with 1.5 million retained:
Allen at 2.85 million (currently 4.35 million)
or
Bozak at 3.5 million (currently 5 million)

Retaining on Allen might be the wisest thing as Bozak probably still has some positive tradevalue (albeit very low) even if his cap is way too high.

Are they still overpayed in their current role if we retain 1.5 million on one of their contracts?

 

[simon IC]

Just wondering... what do you guys think the tradevalue of Allen and Bozak is if we retained on their contracts?
Biggest problem trading those guys isn't their performance, statisticly Allen is one of the best 1B/backup goalies in the league while Bozak is a very serviceable 3c that can move up to 2c in case of emergency. Problem is that they're overpayed for their current role.

It's a lot of 'if's', but lets say the cap stays flat, we sign Petro to the Josi deal (7x9million). We trade Gunnarsson, trade the rights to Dunn. Call up Mikkola, Perunovich, Husso and a cheap 14th forward (Poganski?) Then we still have around 1.5 left million that we can retain on salary either on Allen or Bozak as long as we also trade both.

What would Allen or Bozak be worth with 1.5 million retained:
Allen at 2.85 million (currently 4.35 million)
or
Bozak at 3.5 million (currently 5 million)

Retaining on Allen might be the wisest thing as Bozak probably still has some positive tradevalue (albeit very low) even if his cap is way too high.

Are they still overpayed in their current role if we retain 1.5 million on one of their contracts?

You really want to go into the next season with Scandella as our only experienced LD? I think you are relying way too much on Perunovich and Mikkola. Even if Mikkola and Perunovich do pan out as quickly as we would like, what happens if one of them goes down with a lengthy injury? Do we rely on the likes of Pouliot?

 

[Beauterham]

You really want to go into the next season with Scandella as our only experienced LD? I think you are relying way too much on Perunovich and Mikkola. Even if Mikkola and Perunovich do pan out as quickly as we would like, what happens if one of them goes down with a lengthy injury? Do we rely on the likes of Pouliot?

Faulk can, and mostly played, on the left side last season. So with Faulk and Scandella there are 2 'adequate' options on the left side. I'd rather do this then to pay to get rid of Bozak and Allen AND we get to keep Petro. We would still have an adequate top 4, only 1 of Mikkola/Perunovich has to stick on the 3rd pairing.

 

[bluesXwinXtheXcup]

Just wondering... what do you guys think the tradevalue of Allen and Bozak is if we retained on their contracts?
Biggest problem trading those guys isn't their performance, statisticly Allen is one of the best 1B/backup goalies in the league while Bozak is a very serviceable 3c that can move up to 2c in case of emergency. Problem is that they're overpayed for their current role.

It's a lot of 'if's', but lets say the cap stays flat, we sign Petro to the Josi deal (7x9million). We trade Gunnarsson, trade the rights to Dunn. Call up Mikkola, Perunovich, Husso and a cheap 14th forward (Poganski?) Then we still have around 1.5 left million that we can retain on salary either on Allen or Bozak as long as we also trade both.

What would Allen or Bozak be worth with 1.5 million retained:
Allen at 2.85 million (currently 4.35 million)
or
Bozak at 3.5 million (currently 5 million)

Retaining on Allen might be the wisest thing as Bozak probably still has some positive tradevalue (albeit very low) even if his cap is way too high.

Are they still overpayed in their current role if we retain 1.5 million on one of their contracts?

I disagree with doing your "what if" trades. Like Gunnarsson. He's making peanuts next year and is worth more to us than other teams.

But I think you bring up a good point:

There is equity in ANY player if you pay for part of their contract.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I disagree with doing your "what if" trades. Like Gunnarsson. He's making peanuts next year and is worth more to us than other teams.

But I think you bring up a good point:

There is equity in ANY player if you pay for part of their contract.

That last part is hilarious and so true.

I wish the Blues traded for Ville Leino with Buffalo retaining 99.999999% of his contract.

Sounds equitable to me.

 

[kilowatt]

Hey guys, hope you don't mind this Kings fan crashing the party here. Would you be interested in trading Vince Dunn? He would be a great addition for LA's blueline. Given that LA's projected cap hit next season is only about $60,000,000, I figure Dunn might solve LA's left defense and LA might solve St. Louis' cap problems. Perhaps something around Dunn and Kupari as the centerpiece of the trade, with maybe Bozak or Allen (or both) to make up the difference in value? The Kings have plenty of other pieces as well, although they likely won't be trading Vilardi, Turcotte, or the second overall pick.

Here's a thought:

To LA: Vince Dunn, Tyler Bozak
To STL: Rasmus Kupari, Kale Clague, LAK 3rd round pick

That's a former first, former second and a very high third round pick. Clague is ready for the NHL this year, Kupari if not this year then next.

If my value is way off, let me know.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Hey guys, hope you don't mind this Kings fan crashing the party here. Would you be interested in trading Vince Dunn? He would be a great addition for LA's blueline. Given that LA's projected cap hit next season is only about $60,000,000, I figure Dunn might solve LA's left defense and LA might solve St. Louis' cap problems. Perhaps something around Dunn and Kupari as the centerpiece of the trade, with maybe Bozak or Allen (or both) to make up the difference in value? The Kings have plenty of other pieces as well, although they likely won't be trading Vilardi, Turcotte, or the second overall pick.

Here's a thought:

To LA: Vince Dunn, Tyler Bozak
To STL: Rasmus Kupari, Kale Clague, LAK 3rd round pick

That's a former first, former second and a very high third round pick. Clague is ready for the NHL this year, Kupari if not this year then next.

If my value is way off, let me know.

I don’t hate it tbh. I love Dunn though. Is Kupari a winger or center?

 

[BlueOil]

Just wondering... what do you guys think the tradevalue of Allen and Bozak is if we retained on their contracts?
Biggest problem trading those guys isn't their performance, statisticly Allen is one of the best 1B/backup goalies in the league while Bozak is a very serviceable 3c that can move up to 2c in case of emergency. Problem is that they're overpayed for their current role.

It's a lot of 'if's', but lets say the cap stays flat, we sign Petro to the Josi deal (7x9million). We trade Gunnarsson, trade the rights to Dunn. Call up Mikkola, Perunovich, Husso and a cheap 14th forward (Poganski?) Then we still have around 1.5 left million that we can retain on salary either on Allen or Bozak as long as we also trade both.

What would Allen or Bozak be worth with 1.5 million retained:
Allen at 2.85 million (currently 4.35 million)
or
Bozak at 3.5 million (currently 5 million)

Retaining on Allen might be the wisest thing as Bozak probably still has some positive tradevalue (albeit very low) even if his cap is way too high.

Are they still overpayed in their current role if we retain 1.5 million on one of their contracts?

allen only has one year left. the blues should really avoid retention unless it's the only way to move him. i don't think it will be absolutely necessary with short term and his back up performances over the past year. his reputation does proceed him, but he's one of the better options available too if you need a keeper added to your team.

bozak we might have to retain on to move unless we're willing to lopside the deal a bit with the pieces involved.

 

[Blueston]

Hey guys, hope you don't mind this Kings fan crashing the party here. Would you be interested in trading Vince Dunn? He would be a great addition for LA's blueline. Given that LA's projected cap hit next season is only about $60,000,000, I figure Dunn might solve LA's left defense and LA might solve St. Louis' cap problems. Perhaps something around Dunn and Kupari as the centerpiece of the trade, with maybe Bozak or Allen (or both) to make up the difference in value? The Kings have plenty of other pieces as well, although they likely won't be trading Vilardi, Turcotte, or the second overall pick.

Here's a thought:

To LA: Vince Dunn, Tyler Bozak
To STL: Rasmus Kupari, Kale Clague, LAK 3rd round pick

That's a former first, former second and a very high third round pick. Clague is ready for the NHL this year, Kupari if not this year then next.

If my value is way off, let me know.

I think your value is about right. Something like this makes lots of sense for Blues to create room for Petro.

 

[The Note]

Hey guys, hope you don't mind this Kings fan crashing the party here. Would you be interested in trading Vince Dunn? He would be a great addition for LA's blueline. Given that LA's projected cap hit next season is only about $60,000,000, I figure Dunn might solve LA's left defense and LA might solve St. Louis' cap problems. Perhaps something around Dunn and Kupari as the centerpiece of the trade, with maybe Bozak or Allen (or both) to make up the difference in value? The Kings have plenty of other pieces as well, although they likely won't be trading Vilardi, Turcotte, or the second overall pick.

Here's a thought:

To LA: Vince Dunn, Tyler Bozak
To STL: Rasmus Kupari, Kale Clague, LAK 3rd round pick

That's a former first, former second and a very high third round pick. Clague is ready for the NHL this year, Kupari if not this year then next.

If my value is way off, let me know.

I’ve been generally against trading Dunn but I think this is a good deal.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Hey guys, hope you don't mind this Kings fan crashing the party here. Would you be interested in trading Vince Dunn? He would be a great addition for LA's blueline. Given that LA's projected cap hit next season is only about $60,000,000, I figure Dunn might solve LA's left defense and LA might solve St. Louis' cap problems. Perhaps something around Dunn and Kupari as the centerpiece of the trade, with maybe Bozak or Allen (or both) to make up the difference in value? The Kings have plenty of other pieces as well, although they likely won't be trading Vilardi, Turcotte, or the second overall pick.

Here's a thought:

To LA: Vince Dunn, Tyler Bozak
To STL: Rasmus Kupari, Kale Clague, LAK 3rd round pick

That's a former first, former second and a very high third round pick. Clague is ready for the NHL this year, Kupari if not this year then next.

If my value is way off, let me know.

I’m not terribly familiar with either prospect, but the draft pedigree value is good. Are there any red flags for either guy?

I think the Blues can reasonably expect Mikkola or Perunovich to slide into the regular rotation next year. I like Dunn. I think this is a deal that makes sense for both teams.

 

[MissouriMook]

Hey guys, hope you don't mind this Kings fan crashing the party here. Would you be interested in trading Vince Dunn? He would be a great addition for LA's blueline. Given that LA's projected cap hit next season is only about $60,000,000, I figure Dunn might solve LA's left defense and LA might solve St. Louis' cap problems. Perhaps something around Dunn and Kupari as the centerpiece of the trade, with maybe Bozak or Allen (or both) to make up the difference in value? The Kings have plenty of other pieces as well, although they likely won't be trading Vilardi, Turcotte, or the second overall pick.

Here's a thought:

To LA: Vince Dunn, Tyler Bozak
To STL: Rasmus Kupari, Kale Clague, LAK 3rd round pick

That's a former first, former second and a very high third round pick. Clague is ready for the NHL this year, Kupari if not this year then next.

If my value is way off, let me know.

As many others have said, this is a pretty good deal. My preference would be for any one of Fagemo, Thomas or Dudas as the forward coming the other way in the deal instead of Kupari, but I would certainly understand if that swung the deal too far the other way for a Kings fan. We have a (potential, unproven) internal replacement for Dunn, but I really don't want to lose him. I still think he will be a plus-defender in a couple of years (some fancy stats suggest he is already) and a guy that will consistently give you 10 goals and 40 points a season.