OT: Blues Forum Lounge (Home of All Things OT) - Part XIII

[Lord Helix]

I don’t think the police have released all the details but yes it was reported a shoving match happened before someone pulled a gun out.

Like I said, I don’t go to bars downtown. I try to stay as far from trouble as possible, ((((Especially since I carry about all the time)))). My original comment was tongue in cheek but you can hardly say anything in today’s world without it getting political or someone getting offended. I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing but it feels like that’s the direction Celtic was going.

As a side note, I grew up hunting almost any time I wanted. I’m not a huge gun guy but I do love hunting, especially bow hunting. The world is what it is. I never gave a lot of thought about carrying until I had kids. I stay away from known risky environments. Having kids, I don’t ever want to be in a situation where I wished I had my gun and didn’t.

Unfortunately avoiding high risk places isn’t enough. Theatres, concerts, or just walking down a side walk can be targeted. I don’t live my life in fear of these things but I’m as prepared as the law permits and I stay aware.

How often have you needed to defend your family with said gun? Do you carry a glass breaker in your vehicle? I'm from the sticks in IL...Guess how many times I've needed a firearm in StL or anywhere?

The largest contributors to firearm crime prevention are what essentially amount to being exposure.
(or decreasing the amount and types of guns held by citizens)

 

[Lord Helix]

I just don’t see how bringing a gun to a bar ever makes much sense. If you are an on duty cop it does.

Until it's two undercover officers in a Brooklyn club shootout without prior knowledge to the existence of said other officer.

 

[Spektre]

How often have you needed to defend your family with said gun? Do you carry a glass breaker in your vehicle? I'm from the sticks in IL...Guess how many times I've needed a firearm in StL or anywhere?

The largest contributors to firearm crime prevention are what essentially amount to being exposure.
(or decreasing the amount and types of guns held by citizens)

This will be my only reply to this kind of baiting. You’re from Illinois. Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. It’s funny but criminals don’t care about breaking the law.

It’s my right to carry a gun unless I go somewhere that strictly prohibits it. You don’t have to like that and I don’t have to care about your opinion. You almost act as though somehow I want to have to use my gun because I carry. The truth is law abiding citizens such as myself want the exact opposite. It would be horrible to have to take a life.

At the end of the day the law backs up my right, not anyone’s personal opinion. That’s all that matters.

 

[Lord Helix]

This will be my only reply to this kind of baiting. You’re from Illinois. Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. It’s funny but criminals don’t care about breaking the law.

It’s my right to carry a gun unless I go somewhere that strictly prohibits it. You don’t have to like that and I don’t have to care about your opinion. You almost act as though somehow I want to have to use my gun because I carry. The truth is law abiding citizens such as myself want the exact opposite. It would be horrible to have to take a life.

At the end of the day the law backs up my right, not anyone’s personal opinion. That’s all that matters.

You can't take my rocket launcher.

Edit: Also relevant:

 

[Shwabeal]

The worst part about the whole situation is that both people that we're shot (one dead, one injured) is that they were both bystanders. If you're going to illegally possess a weapon in a place that they are not permitted, get so heated that you end up using said gun, at least hit your god damn target....

 

[bleedblue1223]

How often have you needed to defend your family with said gun? Do you carry a glass breaker in your vehicle? I'm from the sticks in IL...Guess how many times I've needed a firearm in StL or anywhere?

The largest contributors to firearm crime prevention are what essentially amount to being exposure.
(or decreasing the amount and types of guns held by citizens)

Only takes one.

Not true, but I don't really want to get into it.

 

[Majorityof1]

The statistics, at least those that I have seen, actually support Lord Helix. At the very least, they show that gun ownership does not decrease violent crime, or the severity of it. Here is a few articles for those interested:

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows
Gun and self-defense statistics that might surprise you -- and the NRA
For every gun used in self-defense, six more are used to commit a crime

Those are from a quick google search, linking only reputable and (ostensibly) non-biased sources that cite some sort of scientific or statistical study. I did not do a deep dive into these to test for reasonableness of their findings. I have seen others that did seem legit but don't have links or copies at hand. I have not seen a non-NRA study that uses any type of mathematical or scientific data to argue otherwise. I'm not saying they aren't out there, just that I have only seen anecdotal arguments from the other side. I think given the number of injuries from improper and untrained gun ownership that occur and the number of guns that fall into the hands of criminals due to the same, there has to be some middle ground to make sure guns are owned responsibly by responsible people without infringing on their "right to bear arms". Carrying a weapon into a sometimes high-tension environment that specializes in selling mood altering drinks, to me, is not responsible.

This will be my last response on this issue in this forum as politics can get messy. But if you have other studies that contradict this, please link them or send them in pm. Not to argue, but to educate.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I'll just add that I think the goal should be trying to minimize all violent crime, not specific types of crimes. Even if all guns are eliminated, you'd probably have an issue like London is having with knives. I just wish the actual discussion could go deeper at the core of the problem.

We could do a lot better in discussions if we all understood how connected to each other, almost all issues we are facing today. Not saying 1 solution will take care of everything, but we are dealing with a giant knot, not a bunch of smaller separate knots. A lot of it starts with economics.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

I'll just add that I think the goal should be trying to minimize all violent crime, not specific types of crimes. Even if all guns are eliminated, you'd probably have an issue like London is having with knives. I just wish the actual discussion could go deeper at the core of the problem.

This is where true crime prevention has problems. The politics of it get to heavy and no one focuses on the actual issue. Look no further than Chicago and their violent crime. They have the strictest gun laws in the US and it does nothing. London banned handguns completely and now they have a large problem with knives. The violent crime prevention debate needs to be more about the psychology of the crime and the criminal committing it, not the weapon used. The weapon is just a tool. If you ban the tool, they'll find a different tool.

 

[bleedblue1223]

This is where true crime prevention has problems. The politics of it get to heavy and no one focuses on the actual issue. Look no further than Chicago and their violent crime. They have the strictest gun laws in the US and it does nothing. London banned handguns completely and now they have a large problem with knives. The violent crime prevention debate needs to be more about the psychology of the crime and the criminal committing it, not the weapon used. The weapon is just a tool. If you ban the tool, they'll find a different tool.

Exactly. Less crime would be committed with people were succeeding economically. Business won't go to areas that aren't safe and where they can't succeed economically. Because of those reasons and others education in high crime areas won't be as high. Parents will have to work more to provide for the family, so they will have less time parenting their children to ensure that they have the proper parenting needed. There are a multitude of more issues, and unfortunately politicians will never be able to look at these things logically, or they have a false sense of understanding because they are too far removed from experiencing anything like that, if they ever did experience any of that.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

Ozuna needs to start producing. Quick.

He needs to buy into the system, get back on the forecheck, go hard to the net, win some board battles

 

[stl76]

Any that let you carry concealed

Pretty sure it is extremely not ok to be inebriated while carrying a concealed weapon, much less using said weapon in a crowded public space. I sure as shit wouldn't want to be around anyone who had been drinking and also had a gun on them...at least not in a crowded public area.

Drinking beers and shooting skeet or something out in the country, far away from crowded public areas, is one thing. Suggesting it's a good idea to bring a gun with you to a bar is seriously irresponsible Spektre.



EDIT: after a quick google search, here are a couple quotes from relevant laws pertaining to bringing a firearm to a bar in Missouri according the NRA Institute for Legislative Action:

1)

Even with a permit (endorsement), concealed firearms cannot be carried in or on the following places:
...
bars and lounges, without the consent of the owner or manager, and restaurants with seating for less than 50 people where the majority of the restaurant’s income is other the sale of food, although possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises is not a violation so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished;

2)

Missouri law makes it an offense to possess a firearm on the person while intoxicated and to handle or use such firearm in either a negligent or unlawful manner, or to discharge the firearm unless acting in self-defense. Mo. Rev. Stat. § 571.030.1(5).

This article has some good general info/guidelines for anyone interested:
What Happens If You Drink While Carrying Concealed?

 

[Evocable Manager]

They should make military training mandatory in US.

In Switzerland, all males are required to go through military training AND are required to own a gun (given they are over 18). I'm not talking a handgun either, these guys have assault rifles. Now do yourself a favor and look up shootings and killings in Switzerland. You'll discover that it isn't very common. In fact, it's virtually a non-issue.

Best way to stop a shooter is to shoot them. If everyone is properly trained and educated, gun shootings and violence would be very rare and when someone does decide to shoot up a school there will be less casualties than in the ones that have happened recently.

They can get rid of guns but people will find other ways to bring harm.

 

[WeWantTacos]

I decided to look up London's stats and thought this was interesting. It compared London's 15 reported homicides in February 2018 to NYC's 11 in the same month, but consider in January London had 8 and NYC had 18.

So NYC's total to that point was 29 and London's was 23.

The interesting part? St. Louis city had 25 homicides by Feb 26. A city of 300,000 had more homicides Jan-Feb than a region of 8,700,000. Possibly more if you consider the STL stat doesn't account for 2 days.

Reality Check: Has London's murder rate overtaken New York's?
2 dead in north St. Louis homicide, marks 25th in city limits

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

Aaaaaanyways...

I am in STL for a work trip and went to Busch Stadium tonight for the first time since... god I don’t remember the last time.

What an ending to a real boring game! Yadi is still clutch after all these years

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

I don't know what it is, because Matt Carpenter is a good player, but I still would like to see him packaged for a 3B and let Martinez play 1B. I don't know what it is. I really don't, but I feel like he holds the team back a bit. He's a solid OBP guy and comes up with some clutch hits. But I just hate that he's slow and is put into positions where he's a defensive liability. I mean, I know Martinez is as well at 1B, but at least he's really only at 1 position. With O'Neill, Bader, and other OF prospects, you aren't going to see Martinez in the OF, barring injury. They keep Carpenter in there for his OBP when he's a liability at 3B, 1B, or 2B. I wish I could shake this idea, but I just can't. Carpenter would fit in perfectly in an American League lineup.

I think the Cardinals are teetering on the line of being an elite team and being a good team this season. Matheny is the most important thing in determining which they'll be.

 

[bleedblue1223]

No one would take Carpenter right now IMO.

 

[Stealth JD]

Carpenters rookie year with 50-doubles was awesome. I would have been fine had he stayed at 2nd and been a fraction of that player. He's progressively gotten worse and worse each year (it seems - i barely pay attention to the Cards down in FL) and definitely seems to be one of the weaker-links on this roster these days.

 

[David Dennison]

Carpenters rookie year with 50-doubles was awesome. I would have been fine had he stayed at 2nd and been a fraction of that player. He's progressively gotten worse and worse each year (it seems - i barely pay attention to the Cards down in FL) and definitely seems to be one of the weaker-links on this roster these days.

By WAR, his rookie season was his worst.

Carp and Fowler super low BABIP indicate some bad luck that will normalize over the course of a season. I dont disagree Carp should be sitting for Gyorko right now, but Wong is the other piece to the puzzle and he is struggling as well. Ozuna is the one I am more worried about, more and more it looks like last season was an outlier for him.

 

[bleedblue1223]

By WAR, his rookie season was his worst.

Carp and Fowler super low BABIP indicate some bad luck that will normalize over the course of a season. I dont disagree Carp should be sitting for Gyorko right now, but Wong is the other piece to the puzzle and he is struggling as well. Ozuna is the one I am more worried about, more and more it looks like last season was an outlier for him.

He mixed up the seasons. His ROY voting season was pretty much just a half season. His 55 double season was his 2nd season, but 1st full season, and was his best WAR year.

 

[Stealth JD]

He mixed up the seasons. His ROY voting season was pretty much just a half season. His 55 double season was his 2nd season, but 1st full season, and was his best WAR year.

Thank you.
I stopped paying closely to baseball about the time Pujols left, and didn't realize that Carpenter had played enough the season prior to his 55-double campaign to have lost rookie eligibility. It's just been a steady downhill from there it seems (without checking the stats).

Piscotty, Allen Craig...Cardinals got out of those contracts pretty easily. Don't know what qualifies M-Carp as a core-piece other than Matheny's love and devotion.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Thank you.
I stopped paying closely to baseball about the time Pujols left, and didn't realize that Carpenter had played enough the season prior to his 55-double campaign to have lost rookie eligibility. It's just been a steady downhill from there it seems (without checking the stats).

Piscotty, Allen Craig...Cardinals got out of those contracts pretty easily. Don't know what qualifies M-Carp as a core-piece other than Matheny's love and devotion.

Yeah, technically that was his rookie season, but functionaly, his 2nd season still feels more like his rookie season.

 

[MissouriMook]

50 years ago today - Ron Schock sent the old barn into a frenzy and the Blues into their first SCF. My how time flies.

 

[TheDizee]

Ozuna is such a likeable player. Cards would be stupid to not resign him.

 

[brokeu91]

Ozuna is such a likeable player. Cards would be stupid to not resign him.

Yeah and that double was clutch