OT: Blues Forum Lounge (Home of All Things OT) - Part 2019

[TheBluePenguin]

St. Louis city/county divide is probably pretty unique compared to other cities, that's always a weird factor in all this, and the MetroLink etc.

Yeah the metro link aspect is always eye opening, any time there is a story about expanding the Metrolink into St Charles go read the comments.... There will be tons of "Keep those people" out of St Charles... Its really sad.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Yeah the metro link aspect is always eye opening, any time there is a story about expanding the Metrolink into St Charles go read the comments.... There will be tons of "Keep those people" out of St Charles... Its really sad.

I think there is some nuance to it, and it's not just with St. Charles either. Right or wrong, the Galleria will always be what is pointed to as a reason to not expand the MetroLink.

 

[Celtic Note]

That is fantastic to read.

Brookings normally has some very good urban analysis. I would recommend them.

 

[Celtic Note]

St. Louis city/county divide is probably pretty unique compared to other cities, that's always a weird factor in all this, and the MetroLink etc.

I have yet to see such animosity in the city vs county/suburbs realm in any of the cities I have lived or visited. Personally, I think it is both pointless and detrimental. The fact that it even exists is laughable IMHO.

 

[Celtic Note]

Yeah the metro link aspect is always eye opening, any time there is a story about expanding the Metrolink into St Charles go read the comments.... There will be tons of "Keep those people" out of St Charles... Its really sad.

It doesn’t help that the Metrolink is poorly designed. In cities where transit is successful, the lines connect neighborhoods and business districts within a walkable distance. Chicago is a pretty great example that is a stones throw away. To complicate matters, STL really isn’t that dense. So, transit efficiency and ridership will always face those challenges.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I have yet to see such animosity in the city vs county/suburbs realm in any of the cities I have lived or visited. Personally, I think it is both pointless and detrimental. The fact that it even exists is laughable IMHO.

It's a fascinating history though.

 

[Celtic Note]

It's a fascinating history though.

There is a book called St. Louis: The Evolution of an American Landscape that has a pretty detailed account of that history. It’s a bit dry, but interesting nonetheless...if that is interesting to you our anyone else.

 

[bleedblue1223]

There is a book called St. Louis: The Evolution of an American Landscape that has a pretty detailed account of that history. It’s a bit dry, but interesting nonetheless...if that is interesting to you our anyone else.

And the whole thing started off with corruption and illegality all around. Ballots were changed and stuffed, no one was indicted, and a recount flipped the outcome.

 

[Ranksu]

As someone who grew up in Ferguson, there is really bad some issues in St Louis but they are not unique to St Louis, most cities in the United States are all the same. St Louis also was famous for the what was called "The Delmar Divide" seriously google it, Delmar is a street in St Louis, if it was and still is in a way a line the segregated the city. White people lived south of Delmar and African Americans lived north of Delmar. I have not watched that movie but I honestly was shocked to find out that there are two police unions for the STLPD, one for white officers and one for black officers.... it is just crazy.

After watching that documentary. I'm bit skeptical if I came to St. Louis someday I shouldn't go those neibhours at all. Limit my visit in totally different area.

 

[bleedblue1223]

After watching that documentary. I'm bit skeptical if I came to St. Louis someday I shouldn't go those neibhours at all. Limit my visit in totally different area.

Yeah, stick to certain areas. If you ever make the trip, you have plenty here for advice. There are plenty of spots to be where it's safe and enjoyable for a vacation.

 

[Klank Loves You]

One of the problems with this conversation is it becomes "Stay away from the bad neighborhood." when we should be talking about what we can do to improve those areas. A large part of that is it's a difficult, nuanced discussion to have.

 

[Celtic Note]

One of the problems with this conversation is it becomes "Stay away from the bad neighborhood." when we should be talking about what we can do to improve those areas. A large part of that is it's a difficult, nuanced discussion to have.

The only real way I have seen successfully clean up an area is to have a mixture of incomes move in. Unfortunately, that often comes with displacement of existing residents due to rising land values and therefore higher tax rates. That tends to price people out of their neighborhood and causes gentrification. It’s not really an answer at that point.

I have heard discussion about putting a moratorium on rising taxes on those who live there before the rise in land value with some sort of length of duration for the cap based on income level. It’s not something that has been successfully implemented to my knowledge, but it does make some theoretical sense.

Another potential is bringing in a company or industry that pays well that people from the community can work at and earn better wages. That often has to be paired with non for profits that facilitate job training and career development skills. That sort of requires the perfect storm of things to happen, but it’s also being attempted in some communities on a grassroots level.

 

[Blueston]

The only real way I have seen successfully clean up an area is to have a mixture of incomes move in. Unfortunately, that often comes with displacement of existing residents due to rising land values and therefore higher tax rates. That tends to price people out of their neighborhood and causes gentrification. It’s not really an answer at that point.

I have heard discussion about putting a moratorium on rising taxes on those who live there before the rise in land value with some sort of length of duration for the cap based on income level. It’s not something that has been successfully implemented to my knowledge, but it does make some theoretical sense.

Another potential is bringing in a company or industry that pays well that people from the community can work at and earn better wages. That often has to be paired with non for profits that facilitate job training and career development skills. That sort of requires the perfect storm of things to happen, but it’s also being attempted in some communities on a grassroots level.

Gee, it’s almost as if institutional racism caused cascading problems.

 

[Celtic Note]

Gee, it’s almost as if institutional racism caused cascading problems.

Living in denial is easier than admitting we have a problem, so it’s become a default strategy by many. Our egos make it so that we feel better by finger pointing, so long as the finger isn’t pointed in our direction. What’s the first step in getting help? Admitting you have a problem. It’s well past time for all of us to admit.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

After watching that documentary. I'm bit skeptical if I came to St. Louis someday I shouldn't go those neibhours at all. Limit my visit in totally different area.

It’s not bad if you come in and kinda stick to the tourist type things. If I were you I’d plan on being here for a few days, but then heading out to somewhere else as well. Go up to Chicago or any BIG city. Or out west if you’re more into mountains and scenery and hiking and that stuff. If you make St. Louis THE focal point of your trip, then you might be a little disappointed.

edit: plus, like bleedblue said, you’ve got friends here that would point you in the right directions. Maybe even meet up with ya if you ever came lol

 

[bleedblue1223]

Gee, it’s almost as if institutional racism cau, bused cascading problems.

That doesn't do anything to fix the problems though. And those problems aren't unique to St. Louis, basically every urban area has similar issues. You have to fix crime, education, bring good jobs in (which requires crime to be fixed), and then some overall changes for more than just those communities like treating drug addiction as a health crisis and not a criminal one. Has there been an example that has done something like this that hasn't been accused of gentrification?

I'm from North County and went to Hazelwood Central, we stayed through most of the white flight movement, and my parents eventually moved to St. Peters. The white flight has always been viewed with sort of a racist lens, but what do people expect when their neighborhood starts declining. Fixing those types of issues is nearly impossible.

 

[Blueston]

That doesn't do anything to fix the problems though. And those problems aren't unique to St. Louis, basically every urban area has similar issues. You have to fix crime, education, bring good jobs in (which requires crime to be fixed), and then some overall changes for more than just those communities like treating drug addiction as a health crisis and not a criminal one. Has there been an example that has done something like this that hasn't been accused of gentrification?

I'm from North County and went to Hazelwood Central, we stayed through most of the white flight movement, and my parents eventually moved to St. Peters. The white flight has always been viewed with sort of a racist lens, but what do people expect when their neighborhood starts declining. Fixing those types of issues is nearly impossible.

You aren't wrong, and this clearly isn't just St. Louis issue, but one of the insidious aspects of racism is that eventually even non-racist decisions are made within constraints of racism-infused damage. For example:

• companies were less likely to hire blacks than whites for jobs and paid them less for same job.
• cops were more likely to arrest blacks than whites for similar crimes and courts punished them harsher for similar crimes
• retailers were less likely to open stores in minority neighborhoods and charged higher prices when they did
• less resources are spent on schools in minority neighborhoods and those resources are relatively more likely to be spent on cops than computers

The result from decades of this is that people and areas get caught in downward spiral, poor and crime-infested. And even well-meaning white folks (like your family presumably) feel the need to move to better neighborhood. So yes, we need to address crime and health and education, of course. But we need to recognize role racism played and work to counteract that if we truly want to fix this.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Sure, recognize it, but that doesn't change anything. You can't force business to stay open and lose money, you can't force Jamestown Mall and St. Louis Mills to just stay open will full stores. These conversations never get to a point of actionable change and I don't think enough people realize how complex of a puzzle it is with everything connected to each other.

 

[Celtic Note]

Sure, recognize it, but that doesn't change anything. You can't force business to stay open and lose money, you can't force Jamestown Mall and St. Louis Mills to just stay open will full stores. These conversations never get to a point of actionable change and I don't think enough people realize how complex of a puzzle it is with everything connected to each other.

You have to recognize the problem in order to address the problem. If you don’t acknowledge that it exists, then it is as if it doesn’t exist. It’s an out of sight, out of mind mindset that perpetuates these things. Until that acknowledgment exists on a large enough scale, you really cannot successfully overcome problems this grand and complex.

And when I say acknowledge it, that has to include your personal role in it. We all play some role. Some larger than others, but we all have one nevertheless. Without that degree of acknowledgement, it’s all just finger pointing. This is the critical flaw with most acknowledgment efforts.

I completely understand the frustration with inaction and that talk is cheap, but you have to start somewhere with people.

For those who have long since acknowledged the problems, this all might seem like a negligible act. However, for many it is a big hurdle.

Many people realize how complex these problems are to solve. As you note, it is far from enough. There are people, organizations and cities working to develop solutions. Most of these entities are progressive. They are actively looking to move things forward. (I am not talking about the BS political definition of the word progressive either) There are cities on that Brookings Institution report that are trying new things to make end roads. Some are more successful than others. It sucks to say, but STL is really not one of those cities. It’s largely a complacent place that just says there is a problem, but largely is unwilling to do much of anything about it unless it involves someone as ill intentioned as Paul McKee. In that regard, the truth hurts and it is really hard for people to accept.

 

[bleedblue1223]

You have to recognize the problem in order to address the problem. If you don’t acknowledge that it exists, then it is as if it doesn’t exist. It’s an out of sight, out of mind mindset that perpetuates these things. Until that acknowledgment exists on a large enough scale, you really cannot successfully overcome problems this grand and complex.

And when I say acknowledge it, that has to include your personal role in it. We all play some role. Some larger than others, but we all have one nevertheless. Without that degree of acknowledgement, it’s all just finger pointing. This is the critical flaw with most acknowledgment efforts.

I completely understand the frustration with inaction and that talk is cheap, but you have to start somewhere with people.

For those who have long sense acknowledged the problems, this all might seem like a negligible act. However, for many it is a big hurdle.

Many people realize how complex these problems are to solve. As you note, it is far from enough. There are people, organizations and cities working to develop solutions. Most of these entities are progressive. They are actively looking to move things forward. (I am not talking about the BS political definition of the word progressive either) There are cities on that Brookings Institution report that are trying new things to make end roads. Some are more successful than others. It suck to say, but STL is really not one of those cities. It’s largely a complacent place that just says there is a problem, but largely is unwilling to do much of anything about it unless it involves someone as ill intentioned as Paul McKee. In that regard, the truth hurts and it is really hard for people to accept.

I'm also encouraged by some of the Hood to the Holler type movements and organizations. That to me is the key because many of the issues in inner-city areas that are primarily black also exist in many rural areas that are primarily white. Getting those working class coalitions together is the key. Redlining was the main historical cause, but at this point, the issue is a bit different.

 

[joe galiba]

It isn't just white flight
when I was younger my friend and I bought a bunch of property in the south city and rehabbed them
most of our tenants were black families or black individuals fleeing bad neighborhoods
almost all the problems in our area were caused by white lowlifes
it seems to me that most problems are caused by poverty and throwing race into it seems like a way to politicize it, rather than working towards better education and more employment opportunities

 

[bleedblue1223]

It isn't just white flight
when I was younger my friend and I bought a bunch of property in the south city and rehabbed them
most of our tenants were black families or black individuals fleeing bad neighborhoods
almost all the problems in our area were caused by white lowlifes
it seems to me that most problems are caused by poverty and throwing race into it seems like a way to politicize it, rather than working towards better education and more employment opportunities

Agreed. It's a way to politicize it and honestly, it's pretty low-key racist. I know the implication is that white people want to flee when black people start moving in, but the same idea implicates that an area needs white people in it to be a good area, it's just pretty gross. Or that there aren't black families that do make decent money also moving away to other neighborhoods.

It misses the point of the core problem IMO.

 

[Blueston]

Agreed. It's a way to politicize it and honestly, it's pretty low-key racist. I know the implication is that white people want to flee when black people start moving in, but the same idea implicates that an area needs white people in it to be a good area, it's just pretty gross. Or that there aren't black families that do make decent money also moving away to other neighborhoods.

It misses the point of the core problem IMO.

Core problem is systematic, institutionalized racism. What you are observing is effects of that. The success of individual Blacks (or failure of some whites) doesn't negate that.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Core problem is systematic, institutionalized racism. What you are observing is effects of that. The success of individual Blacks (or failure of some whites) doesn't negate that.

Sure, but you are responding to a post specifically about white flight. But, to respond to your post, the problems in inner-city areas are a result from red-lining and other factors from those time periods, but currently the same problems that exist in those communities exist in poor, rural white communities. The solutions don't come down to just fixing racial issues, that's the bigger point. That's why the Hood to the Holler type stuff is how change will be brought IMO. Those working class coalitions have to come together to get passed the status-quo corporatists on both sides of the aisle.

 

[Blueston]

Sure, but you are responding to a post specifically about white flight. But, to respond to your post, the problems in inner-city areas are a result from red-lining and other factors from those time periods, but currently the same problems that exist in those communities exist in poor, rural white communities. The solutions don't come down to just fixing racial issues, that's the bigger point. That's why the Hood to the Holler type stuff is how change will be brought IMO. Those working class coalitions have to come together to get passed the status-quo corporatists on both sides of the aisle.

I'm not familiar with that organization, but I agree that there are widespread problems across many poorer communities that would benefit from better policy and more resources. Amazingly cutting taxes, starving services, kicking people out of mental health facilities, and more potent and readily available street drugs led to terrible results.