Blues Discussion Thread 2018-2019 - Part IV

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Majorityof1

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Bortuzzo and Sanford scrapped in practice today. Stillman is there today observing.

Wow. Honestly about time. Maybe that fight is something that was needed.

Sanny showing some feistiness.

Scrapped as in fought? I thought it was a typo for scratched, like they are the ones not on lines apparently scratched for the next game. Did they fight? Why? Why is it about time our own players fought, espeically two that have been on the periphery for large parts of the season? If Pietrangelo and Tarasenko fought or Schenn and Steen, I could see it being cathartic. But Bortuzzo and Sanford?

Edit: Ok, so it was a fight. Wow. I hope someone is suspended. that is unacceptable no matter how bad the team is doing.
 
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BlueDream

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Scrapped as in fought? I thought it was a typo for scratched, like they are the ones not on lines apparently scratched for the next game. Did they fight? Why? Why is it about time our own players fought, espeically two that have been on the periphery for large parts of the season? If Pietrangelo and Tarasenko fought or Schene and Steen, I could see it being cathartic. But Bortuzzo and Sanford?
I don't think it really matters who gets in a fight. Just is somewhat of a sign players are fed up, it's not that big of a deal.
 

Majorityof1

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I don't think it really matters who gets in a fight. Just is somewhat of a sign players are fed up, it's not that big of a deal.

Seems frustration more than being fed-up. Why is Bortuzzo fed up with Sanford of all people? "I'm tired of Pietrangelo being a crappy leader, Tarasenko floating, Allen being a sieve, our coaches being idiots, so let me grab this skinny kid that's 16th on the team in TOI and pummel him."

Backes and Tarasenko did this a few years back. It's really not a big deal.

I didn't see the whole thing. But I disagree. You fight for you teammates, you don't fight them.

And a Captain fighting a star, as I said, could be cathartic. But two periphery players? That speaks to a personal grudge or frustration more than hashing out issues. But we'll see what happens from here.
 

bleedblue1223

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Seems frustration more than being fed-up. Why is Bortuzzo fed up with Sanford of all people? "I'm tired of Pietrangelo being a crappy leader, Tarasenko floating, Allen being a sieve, our coaches being idiots, so let me grab this skinny kid that's 16th on the team in TOI and pummel him."

I mean, that's not how it went. It was a board battle, Bortozzo was giving some cross-checks, and Sanford took exception to that.
 

BlueDream

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Sanford was in jeopardy of being scratched, I would now keep him in the lineup as a reward.

Maroon can sit for Perron.
 

bleedblue1223

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Sanford was in jeopardy of being scratched, I would now keep him in the lineup as a reward.

Maroon can sit for Perron.

I think it just depends on how it played out. Was he feisty in the drill or was he mad that Bortozzo was going hard in the drill, and not just taking it easy.
 
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Any chance Johnson gets picked up? There are a few teams with goalie injuries. Raanta is out in Arizona with his backup Kuemper still day-to-day. Elliott, Vasilevskiy and Murray are out. Johnson has been bad for sure. However, he has NHL experience and we are a tire fire as a a whole. Some team might think he is worth a flyer in the hopes he'd do better with a team that is so bad. How long can Louis Domingue play every game in Tampa?
It wouldn’t entirely surprise me. But it sure would make things interesting if Allen were to go down.
 

Reality Czech

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2huhHsJ.gif

Is that a single tear I saw roll down Ville's face? Poor guy, he'll get his chance to back up Jordan WINington soon.
 

Oberyn

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Bortuzzo got some decent licks in there, definitely seemed like the frustration level has boiled over.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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Here’s a bunch of jumbled thoughts.

1) There’s 2 acceptable goalie situations for next year:
Trade Allen and have a new starter.

Allen would be an expensive back-up, but the Blues don’t have to pay assets for someone to take him.
Keep Allen as the back-up and have a low salary starter

It seems doubtful that either AHL guy could be the starter next year. But maybe. I like Howard as a guy they could afford who won’t be a long-term block to Husso (or Binnington) . I have a feeling Bobrovsky is never going to be a Vezina caliber again, but will be paid like one. Let the Flyers make that mistake.

2) I’m fine with Sanford and Bortuzzo scrapping. It’s a non story and in days past with no video we wouldn’t probably even here about it. Just bring that attitude to the game, dammit.

3) I’m responding to Majorityof1.
I don’t know the best course forward, but this is what I’d do:

- move on from Allen, even if I have to pay something. He’s not been part of the solution for too many seasons now. Try to find a ‘average’ goalie on a reasonable contract and let the AHL guys fight for the back-up spot. Could be an UFA signing.
- look for a top 4 LHD any way available. Doesn’t have to be a superstar.
- Change the leadership I’m the locker room. I don’t care if it’s scapegoating someone who isn’t the entire problem. The team needs a change of culture and a reason to start something different. It can’t be only the head coach providing that. This means one of Steen, Tarasenko or Pietro should be traded. Maybe the team takes a step back for a while, but there needs to be room for different voices to step up. Maybe it’s ROR, maybe Schenn. I would not mind seeing ROR with a letter. I’m not holding the Horton’s thing against him when he’s shown his work ethic and motivation.

I don’t know what I get for one of those guys. The Blues probably lose the trade, for sure in the short term. It’s not to say that guy was the main issue. But he hasn’t been part of the solution either, amd there needs to be room for the solution to occur. I think the team would be better going forward after a shock to the culture like that.

Again, could be flawed moves, but doing nothing but look for a coaching savior is not adequate. Hitchcock talked about player leadership a lot, especially in the post-season. I don’t want to poison Pietro on re-signing, but maybe he needs to give up the C. Going into next years’s Camp with the same guys holding letters would be a big mistake in my view.
 
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Reality Czech

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I am still interested in watching games but my tolerance fore poor starts has diminished. If we are looking like garbage, I do something else while watching, like play a game, surf the net or work. Last game, I watched in double speed off the dvr once we went down 3. But I am still tuning in every game to give them a chance. As people said, there is still a morbid curiosity of what could go wrong and there is still a chance to see sparks of a good team.

More than anything I am frustrated with reading the board in general. This is not at all directed at bleedblue1223. I'm just using his post as a jumping off point to say something that's been on my mind.. I am not posting so much and skimming content because it is so much fiction and repetition. I am fine with negativity, if it is intelligent discussion. However, we have so many people on the board that are plain fabricating Bull #@$%, ad-hoc narratives to explain why we are losing. The good posters I enjoy reading are posting less and less, or at least putting less analysis into their posts. That makes sense, because it is so difficult to figure out what is wrong right now, good posters don't know what to say. One aspect of the team looks terrible one week and good the next, while a completely different aspect that looked good previously tanks us. Something is wrong behind the scenes, but we don't have near the information to say what that is.

The problems with the team touch on too many aspects of play to sum up to one easy answer. Yet dozens of posters have honed in on their one-easy answer and are harping on it ad nauseum. We've made dozens of changes over the last couple years since we were a perennial playoff team, but people randomly pick one change to zoom in on with no evidence that is the biggest contributing factor to our problems. People are throwing out trades of our best players with no discussion of how the trade will help or what they are trying to build toward? Addition through subtraction does work from time to time, but yo still need to replace the positive contributions and be sure of the negative ones.

I expected the team to struggle this year, and spend some time figuring a few things out. I obviously didn't expect it to be this awful. But its still possible to use this season as a jumping off point to fix problems. But we have to absolutely understand what the problems are first, and what direction we need to take the team to be successful. Nobody is really addressing those points outside of BS reasons to assign blame in the easiest manner possible for the dumbest reasons. "Tarasenko is not a Hall of Famer, trade him". "Pietrangelo doesn't pay for team dinner's strip the C from him", "Steen is over 30, take him out back and shoot him". "We don't have enough hits or fights, which is bad for reasons I won't say, trade for Reaves?" Ok, but do any of those moves alone in a vacuum help us play more consistently on Defense, offense, special teams and goaltending?

Fantastic post! Sums up a lot of my feelings as well. Gotta love the fact that so many fans on this forum have it 100% figured out, makes you wonder why we are paying guys like Armstrong, Larry Robinson, etc. to run the team when we have so many knowledgeable fans that have already figured out our problems. It certainly gets annoying.

Firing Yeo was supposed to solve our problems. Firing Hitch was supposed to solve them before that, and now we need to fire Armstrong to have any chance. People want to waive Bouwmeester, as if that will make us a contender. Get rid of Allen! OK, and replace him with who? It is ridiculous to see people push narratives as if they are fact. It reminds me of the days everyone thought our problem was goaltending, despite the fact we wouldn't score enough goals to win in the playoffs. Fans seem to have forgotten what it means to be a fan. Fans are supposed to observe and support the team. Sure, give opinions from time to time but don't forget that fans usually don't have enough information to be sure those opinions are correct.

That being said, I will give my opinion (which may be wrong). What is this team's identity? What kind of a group do we want to put together? It seems for years the Blues have just tried to have the deepest roster they could, without really putting much thought into the identity of the team. Aside from a period of Hitch hockey, where guys were playing hard and busting their butts non-stop, it seems like the Blues teams in recent years are just a collection of guys. Do we want to be fast and skilled? Tough and physical? Creative? Hard-working? The best teams in the league aren't usually the deepest teams on paper, they have key players in key roles and they fill out the roster with role players who fit the identity of the team. Almost every Cup-winning team in recent years was fairly top-heavy, not deep and balanced like Blues teams have been.

And acquire a veteran with experience to lead by example. There is not one single proven winner on this entire roster, and that is just sad.
 

Reality Czech

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Seems frustration more than being fed-up. Why is Bortuzzo fed up with Sanford of all people? "I'm tired of Pietrangelo being a crappy leader, Tarasenko floating, Allen being a sieve, our coaches being idiots, so let me grab this skinny kid that's 16th on the team in TOI and pummel him."



I didn't see the whole thing. But I disagree. You fight for you teammates, you don't fight them.

And a Captain fighting a star, as I said, could be cathartic. But two periphery players? That speaks to a personal grudge or frustration more than hashing out issues. But we'll see what happens from here.

Ok, small disagreement with this post. Does it really matter which players are fighting? I'd say the fringe guys have just as much (perhaps more) to fight for than top players. Brothers occasionally fight, friends scrap from time to time, so I don't think it's that unusual for two frustrated players to lose their cool in practice from time to time. Especially when things are going so badly. I actually like it, we need more guys to act like they are pissed off. As long as no one got their orbital bone broken that is.
 
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Evocable Manager

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Is this group of grown men is really a team, this fight will in the end push them together. We can do nothing but enjoy the sheer intrigue of what will happen next in this story. I have my personal speculation but in the end it's been such a down season that nothing would shock me.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." - Martin Luther King Jr.
 

David Dennison

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IMO Blues certainly underestimated how difficult it would be to add 7-8 new faces as everyday players and have the team gel.

Kyrou/Thomas from juniors. ROR/Bozak/Maroon/Johnson from other teams. Perron/Sanford being gone for a year. Sundqvist/Barbashev/Schmaltz now full time NHLers.

Roster stability probably helped the Blues during the Hitch era, but IMO it has been too much of a rotating door since then.
 

Itsnotatrap

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Every time I think about turnover and instability being a part of our problem, I think about Vegas last year. I mean, I still think it’s better to have stability than not, but at best I put it as a supplementary consideration. To say it is a primary one is to say to let the team stay the course. I’m not on board with that, exactly, but this year is all but lost so nobody has to be traded right now and the organization should not accept a garbage return in the name of doing something. Let the other teams feel the pressure the trade deadline organically brings, and if the return isn’t there then, then deal with it in the summer.

They can take their time and figure it out. The coaching situation is a big one that may dictate the player questions later anyway.
 

ScratchCatFever

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If this were any other team I might take a practice scrap as an indication that the players are ready to start playing for each other instead of themselves.
In the Blues case it was probably something more along the lines of Sanford chewed Bortuzzo's last stick of gum before they took the ice.
 

TheBluePenguin

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Apr 15, 2015
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Can't say I'm a fan of punching a teammate who hasn't dropped his gloves and who isn't punching back, regardless of what precipitated the event.

After I saw the fight video I thought it was a bad look for Bortz, although I do enjoy the stick throw at the end lol Sanford is like "WTF man"
 

bleedblue1223

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Can't say I'm a fan of punching a teammate who hasn't dropped his gloves and who isn't punching back, regardless of what precipitated the event.

The whole thing just seems weird. Like all the other players were just sort of looking at it gliding around. I'd think the others would have some sort of emotion when that happens.
 
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