Blues Discussion Thread 2018-2019 - Part III

[EastonBlues22]

I guess both. I was just taken aback by your take on this, as you are usually pretty measured and balanced. Maybe you are just at your breaking point with Yeo though, and I can understand that, I'm there too.

Well, given his setup and principles, I think you straight up roll lines for the first 20-30 minutes or so with whatever combos you came into the game with, then make adjustments from there. By then it should be pretty obvious what's working, what's not, and what tweaks might make the most sense. Over the second half of the game, aim for a 3-2-2-1 TOI split (~11 mins for you best, 7.5ish for your middles, and 4 for your worst). Net result is a 18.5, 15, 15, 11.5 baseline, with special teams work dictating the ultimate specifics for each individual from there.

As for my personal take, I'd run Kyrou on the top PP on the left wall, and either put Thomas on the 2nd PP unit or have him on the 3rd forward PK unit. At ES, I'd start by keeping Kyrou with Schenn and Schwartz. Perron starts with ROR and Tarasenko. Mix up the bottom 6 depending on situation, with Steen and Bozak forming the crux of the third line and Thomas getting spotted in on RW (instead of Blais) for defensive zone starts. Barbashev can center the 4th line between Maroon and Blais when Thomas isn't on the line, and Thomas can center Maroon and Barbashev when he is.

If someone is playing particularly poorly or well, there's ample ways to move them up or down the lineup from that baseline. Getting Kyrou significantly involved on the PP is a no-brainer, IMO. Thomas should be getting tastes on one or both units as well. He brings at least as much to the PK as Schenn does (who we don't really want there, anyway), so why not play Thomas there and let him grow into those responsibilities?

Blais offers less to those units both now and down the road, so he'll have to settle for ES duty.

Oh, and I'd scrap the crappy hybrid man-to-man that they're running. If they want to improve the team's defensive play, that's the lowest hanging fruit there is out there. We've never looked good running man-to-man.

 

[Borderbluesfan]

Just want to say that Petro/Bouw hasn’t been a good pairing for two years. I posted my thoughts on this several times, they are both too similar defensively in that both play a pokecheck, back into the zone defensive style. Edmundson compliments Petro with his stand up defense. Bouw looks better with other defensemen, though personally I think he is past his prime and is an anchor contract.

 

[simon IC]

Well, given his setup and principles, I think you straight up roll lines for the first 20-30 minutes or so with whatever combos you came into the game with, then make adjustments from there. By then it should be pretty obvious what's working, what's not, and what tweaks might make the most sense. Over the second half of the game, aim for a 3-2-2-1 TOI split (~11 mins for you best, 7.5ish for your middles, and 4 for your worst). Net result is a 18.5, 15, 15, 11.5 baseline, with special teams work dictating the ultimate specifics for each individual from there.

As for my personal take, I'd run Kyrou on the top PP on the left wall, and either put Thomas on the 2nd PP unit or have him on the 3rd forward PK unit. At ES, I'd start by keeping Kyrou with Schenn and Schwartz. Perron starts with ROR and Tarasenko. Mix up the bottom 6 depending on situation, with Steen and Bozak forming the crux of the third line and Thomas getting spotted in on RW (instead of Blais) for defensive zone starts. Barbashev can center the 4th line between Maroon and Blais when Thomas isn't on the line, and Thomas can center Maroon and Barbashev when he is.

If someone is playing particularly poorly or well, there's ample ways to move them up or down the lineup from that baseline. Getting Kyrou significantly involved on the PP is a no-brainer, IMO. Thomas should be getting tastes on one or both units as well. He brings at least as much to the PK as Schenn does (who we don't really want there, anyway), so why not play Thomas there and let him grow into those responsibilities?

Blais offers less to those units both now and down the road, so he'll have to settle for ES duty.

Oh, and I'd scrap the crappy hybrid man-to-man that they're running. If they want to improve the team's defensive play, that's the lowest hanging fruit there is out there. We've never looked good running man-to-man.

Well done Easton! I agree on every point. We need you coaching the Blues!

 

[Evocable Manager]

Well, given his setup and principles, I think you straight up roll lines for the first 20-30 minutes or so with whatever combos you came into the game with, then make adjustments from there. By then it should be pretty obvious what's working, what's not, and what tweaks might make the most sense. Over the second half of the game, aim for a 3-2-2-1 TOI split (~11 mins for you best, 7.5ish for your middles, and 4 for your worst). Net result is a 18.5, 15, 15, 11.5 baseline, with special teams work dictating the ultimate specifics for each individual from there.

As for my personal take, I'd run Kyrou on the top PP on the left wall, and either put Thomas on the 2nd PP unit or have him on the 3rd forward PK unit. At ES, I'd start by keeping Kyrou with Schenn and Schwartz. Perron starts with ROR and Tarasenko. Mix up the bottom 6 depending on situation, with Steen and Bozak forming the crux of the third line and Thomas getting spotted in on RW (instead of Blais) for defensive zone starts. Barbashev can center the 4th line between Maroon and Blais when Thomas isn't on the line, and Thomas can center Maroon and Barbashev when he is.

If someone is playing particularly poorly or well, there's ample ways to move them up or down the lineup from that baseline. Getting Kyrou significantly involved on the PP is a no-brainer, IMO. Thomas should be getting tastes on one or both units as well. He brings at least as much to the PK as Schenn does (who we don't really want there, anyway), so why not play Thomas there and let him grow into those responsibilities?

Blais offers less to those units both now and down the road, so he'll have to settle for ES duty.

Oh, and I'd scrap the crappy hybrid man-to-man that they're running. If they want to improve the team's defensive play, that's the lowest hanging fruit there is out there. We've never looked good running man-to-man.

I agree much with this sentiment.

However my one preceding question is, why start Perron with O'Reilly an Vova when Maroon alongside them has looked incredible with them?

 

[simon IC]

Just want to say that Petro/Bouw hasn’t been a good pairing for two years. I posted my thoughts on this several times, they are both too similar defensively in that both play a pokecheck, back into the zone defensive style. Edmundson compliments Petro with his stand up defense. Bouw looks better with other defensemen, though personally I think he is past his prime and is an anchor contract.

I think Bouwmeester was pushed up the lineup out of necessity. When Edmundson returns, JBo should be on the 3rd or 2nd pairing, depending on Dunn's performance. I actually like the Bouwmeester-Parayko pairing, as it could allow Parayko to be more creative. Keep in mind that JBo hasn't played in a long time. I don't think he will ever return to his old self offensively, but I do think he will regain his defensive form. He just has to play through it, as does Dunn. I like Dunn paired with Bortuzzo/Schmaltz on the 3rd pairing, while getting extra minutes on the PP. As for JBo's contract, I believe it is just for this year.

 

[Borderbluesfan]

Bouw and Petro both need a physical D-man paired with them. Parayko isn’t your traditional physical D-man, but he does physically disrupt attacks with his size. I agree that last year Bouw-Parayko looked better than Petro-Bouw, just like Petro-Edmundson looked better!!

 

[EastonBlues22]

I agree much with this sentiment.

However my one preceding question is, why start Perron with O'Reilly an Vova when Maroon alongside them has looked incredible with them?

He hasn't really looked incredible with them, IMO. He was an outright drag on that line the first game, and he made a few really good plays the second game (mostly on the PP), but overall still wasn't really adding much of what he was supposed to be adding to that line at ES.

I can't really go shift by shift to break it down, but are we seeing his forechecking generate turnovers and offense? That happened once, and it was very visible and it turned into a goal, but beyond that one instance I can't think of a single time at ES when he forced a turnover that turned into offense. He hasn't even been particularly effective at retrieving pucks.

Is his net-front presence adding to the line and making his linemates more dangerous? Again, I'd say no. He's usually not even at the front of the net when Tarasenko is shooting.

He hasn't really added anything to the line's ability to generate offense down low (again, at ES), he adds little in transition, hasn't helped with possession, and hasn't really done much defensively. I think Perron can add more to the top line, and I don't think playing on a different line is going to significantly alter Maroon's overall impact on the game.

Just my opinion, but I've been trying to watch him pretty close the first couple of games to see what he brings to the line and what he doesn't.

He's made a few nice plays on the PP that he deserves credit for and has definitely been more effective in front of the net during those occasions, but I'd still rather someone else getting those minutes in that role. I wouldn't mind him on the 2nd PP, though, especially if it's more focused on simply finding lanes for a shot than it is in running set option plays.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Well, given his setup and principles, I think you straight up roll lines for the first 20-30 minutes or so with whatever combos you came into the game with, then make adjustments from there. By then it should be pretty obvious what's working, what's not, and what tweaks might make the most sense. Over the second half of the game, aim for a 3-2-2-1 TOI split (~11 mins for you best, 7.5ish for your middles, and 4 for your worst). Net result is a 18.5, 15, 15, 11.5 baseline, with special teams work dictating the ultimate specifics for each individual from there.

As for my personal take, I'd run Kyrou on the top PP on the left wall, and either put Thomas on the 2nd PP unit or have him on the 3rd forward PK unit. At ES, I'd start by keeping Kyrou with Schenn and Schwartz. Perron starts with ROR and Tarasenko. Mix up the bottom 6 depending on situation, with Steen and Bozak forming the crux of the third line and Thomas getting spotted in on RW (instead of Blais) for defensive zone starts. Barbashev can center the 4th line between Maroon and Blais when Thomas isn't on the line, and Thomas can center Maroon and Barbashev when he is.

If someone is playing particularly poorly or well, there's ample ways to move them up or down the lineup from that baseline. Getting Kyrou significantly involved on the PP is a no-brainer, IMO. Thomas should be getting tastes on one or both units as well. He brings at least as much to the PK as Schenn does (who we don't really want there, anyway), so why not play Thomas there and let him grow into those responsibilities?

Blais offers less to those units both now and down the road, so he'll have to settle for ES duty.

Oh, and I'd scrap the crappy hybrid man-to-man that they're running. If they want to improve the team's defensive play, that's the lowest hanging fruit there is out there. We've never looked good running man-to-man.

Agreed on all points.

 

[542365]

Pacers preseason basketball is on Fox Sports Midwest right now and it annoys me beyond belief. I know there aren’t any Cardinals games they could be showing, but still it sucks that hockey gets so little love.

 

[CaliforniaBlues310]

As far as ice time, I really don’t think it should be that hard to distribute. We’ve got a deep lineup, just go 17-17-14-12.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Dunn was far from our worst defender last game, and is pretty easily better than Jerabek.

Curious how he's the one who appears to be the next odd man out, following Schmaltz who had a good game, and after watching all the kids have their TOI drop through the floor. Especially considering that Dunn has an important role on the PP.

You would think that an NHL coach would be able to divorce how well one is playing from how old one is, but I honestly don't think Yeo's "You get the playing time you earn" mantra applies to anyone over the age of 23.

No chance he's going to sit Bouwmeester, for example, so I guess Dunn will just have to do.

Wasn’t Yeo the coach last season? My memory may be failing, but I don’t remember Yeo treating Dunn unfairly last season as a rookie. This feels like a narrative that is growing out of proportion to the evidence in 2 games.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Brutal quotes by Yeo. He's going to sit here and act like Robert Thomas is taking ice time away from Tarasenko and Schwartz? That's absolute nonsense. There's 12 forwards.

Ugh.

Are these quotes posted somewhere?

 

[HighNote]

Thoughts on putting Perron on the O'Reilly-Tarasenko line?

Perron - O'Reilly - Tarasenko
Schwartz - Schenn - Kyrou
Steen - Bozak - Maroon/Fabbri
Maroon/Fabbri - Thomas - Blais

I think Perron is better suited playing on his off-wing, mainly because he likes to shoot and that would set him up for one-timers and a better angle at the net. More specifically because, looking at his highlights, he likes to come off of the left side boards and take a shot from above the dot, and of course he'd have a better angle than he would on the right wing. I'm pretty sure(?) he played on the left wing in Vegas and he had a ton of success, so why not try to tap into that? He's also more skilled than Maroon, and I think he'd be able to keep up with O'Reilly and Tarasenko in that department. He's not as big or physical as Maroon, but he's still good at taking the body and mucking it up and front of the net, as well as working a cycle. He's also a faster skater.

I feel like we're losing out on more of Perron's potential than we're gaining from Maroon being on the top line. Perron was on pace for 77 points last year, so theoretically if he were put with O'Reilly and Tarasenko, it's not far fetched to expect 60+. I don't see any way Maroon sniffs 60. Maybe if he's playing on the top line the whole year he could get close to 50 (although he's never reached 50 points in his career).

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I found the Tweets.

I wonder if Yeo feels any heat in his chair after the roster moves and the way last season went down. I also wonder if JR is attributing to Yeo some decisions that were Armstrong (regarding the credit for the rookies make]in the team).

It seems like Kyrou isn’t doing something Yeo is asking him to do, that Perron is doing. If Blais was promoted to the 3rd line, does that mean we will see Kyrou on the line with Thomas next game?

It’s an interesting situation to have so long between games after just 2 played. I’ll be surprised if we don’t see a strong game from the team Thursday. It’s almost like they get to hit reset on the season.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Wasn’t Yeo the coach last season? My memory may be failing, but I don’t remember Yeo treating Dunn unfairly last season as a rookie. This feels like a narrative that is growing out of proportion to the evidence in 2 games.

It's a lot harder to treat someone unfairly when injuries are forcing your hand. Between the injuries to Bouwmeester, Gunnarsson, and Edmundson last year and the lack of viable alternatives, Yeo's hand was pretty effectively forced.

I'm not of the opinion that Yeo is going to start running Jerabek consistently out there at the expense of Dunn, so I'm not trying to be alarmist about the whole thing. I'm also not saying that Yeo is just looking for any old excuse to bench someone under the age of 23.

This all just sticks in my craw because what Yeo says is the standard doesn't match up with what what actually happens. An inconsistently applied standard isn't a standard. It's a double standard, and those deserve scorn on general principle.

If Yeo was truly letting the quality of one's play determine the quantity of one's play as he says, then Bouwmeester should be taking a seat instead if he really wants to get Jerabek into a game for some reason. Bouwmeester has been flat out bad in both games, but somehow I doubt that's an option that's on the table, no?

If it's just about giving your team the very best chance to win, then Jerabek almost certainly shouldn't be playing at all.

So if it's not about (fairly) using playing time as a reward/punishment for quality of play, and if it's not about giving your team the best chance to win, then what's it about? Just say it plain and stop feeding us lines.

Combine that feeling with a general desire to push back against the notion that what happens with the kids is somehow a secondary concern behind getting the vets sorted out, and you've got the general thrust of what's fueling my responses to these issues.

Kyrou and Thomas should not be afterthoughts. If integrated now, either one could potentially be a difference maker by the time the playoffs roll around, just like Fabbri was a few years back. Fabbri didn't need 17 minutes a night to get to that point, but he did average 13 non-4th line minutes (with only two games under 10 minutes) and about 1:30 minutes on the PP per game before becoming our leading scorer in the playoffs (tied) with 14+ minutes per game. He was a far more important piece for the team than guys like Paajarvi, Jaskin, etc., and it didn't really take a genius to see that coming.

Anyone with any semblance of sense should be able to comprehend that Kyrou can help this team, particularly on the PP and in 4-on-4 or 3-on-3 situations, but also at ES as well. Thomas' utility might not be quite as glaringly obvious, but he's clearly got the ability to be a bigger factor than his current playing time would suggest.

Those are things that should be on the coaches' radar, and he should be figuring out how best to nurture their situations and ultimately fit those particular pieces into the puzzle, just like he should be doing with all the other players he has at hand.

If a coach can't handle an entire roster's worth of players' situations at the same time, or adequately develop young players while still "trying to win," then he shouldn't be the coach. That's a big part of the job nowadays. I'm not at the point where I'm calling for Yeo's head, but I am at the point where I'm sick of the suggestion that those things are mutually exclusive goals.

 

[simon IC]

It's a lot harder to treat someone unfairly when injuries are forcing your hand. Between the injuries to Bouwmeester, Gunnarsson, and Edmundson last year and the lack of viable alternatives, Yeo's hand was pretty effectively forced.

I'm not of the opinion that Yeo is going to start running Jerabek consistently out there at the expense of Dunn, so I'm not trying to be alarmist about the whole thing. I'm also not saying that Yeo is just looking for any old excuse to bench someone under the age of 23.

This all just sticks in my craw because what Yeo says is the standard doesn't match up with what what actually happens. An inconsistently applied standard isn't a standard. It's a double standard, and those deserve scorn on general principle.

If Yeo was truly letting the quality of one's play determine the quantity of one's play as he says, then Bouwmeester should be taking a seat instead if he really wants to get Jerabek into a game for some reason. Bouwmeester has been flat out bad in both games, but somehow I doubt that's an option that's on the table, no?

If it's just about giving your team the very best chance to win, then Jerabek almost certainly shouldn't be playing at all.

So if it's not about (fairly) using playing time as a reward/punishment for quality of play, and if it's not about giving your team the best chance to win, then what's it about? Just say it plain and stop feeding us lines.

Combine that feeling with a general desire to push back against the notion that what happens with the kids is somehow a secondary concern behind getting the vets sorted out, and you've got the general thrust of what's fueling my responses to these issues.

Kyrou and Thomas should not be afterthoughts. If integrated now, either one could potentially be a difference maker by the time the playoffs roll around, just like Fabbri was a few years back. Fabbri didn't need 17 minutes a night to get to that point, but he did average 13 non-4th line minutes (with only two games under 10 minutes) and about 1:30 minutes on the PP per game before becoming our leading scorer in the playoffs (tied) with 14+ minutes per game. He was a far more important piece for the team than guys like Paajarvi, Jaskin, etc., and it didn't really take a genius to see that coming.

Anyone with any semblance of sense should be able to comprehend that Kyrou can help this team, particularly on the PP and in 4-on-4 or 3-on-3 situations, but also at ES as well. Thomas' utility might not be quite as glaringly obvious, but he's clearly got the ability to be a bigger factor than his current playing time would suggest.

Those are things that should be on the coaches' radar, and he should be figuring out how best to nurture their situations and ultimately fit those particular pieces into the puzzle, just like he should be doing with all the other players he has at hand.

If a coach can't handle an entire roster's worth of players' situations at the same time, or adequately develop young players while still "trying to win," then he shouldn't be the coach. That's a big part of the job nowadays. I'm not at the point where I'm calling for Yeo's head, but I am at the point where I'm sick of the suggestion that those things are mutually exclusive goals.

Once again, well said! You are more forgiving than I am. I have been calling for Yeo's head since the unforgivable disaster in Chicago last season. As for Jerabek, I still do not understand why we acquired him at all. I honestly feel he is going to be forced into the roster to justify a bad, panic trade.

 

[Default]

If Jerabek couldn’t make that Oilers defense... how could he make ours? LOL

 

[542365]

If Jerabek couldn’t make that Oilers defense... how could he make ours? LOL

Well their left side of Nurse, Klefbom and Russell is pretty solid. We have essentially nothing after Edmundson-Bo-Dunn with the exception of Mikkola who I don't think they want to play right away despite his impressive preseason. If he was right handed we wouldn't even bother.

 

[Stealth JD]

i don't think Jerabek was ever acquired with the intention of having to play. He was a cheap insurance policy in the event JBo and Dunn joined Gunnarsson & Edmundson on the 'unavailable' list.

So long as the rookies are getting plenty of practice time and instruction, I'm not overly concerned about the early ice-time. If it doesn't pick up in the coming weeks, or one of the kids starts getting buried on the 4th line Thorburn-style, then I'd be concerned...but the first week of the season with sooo many things to be concerned with, I'll give Yeo a pass for handling the kids cautiously.

 

[Evocable Manager]

Did he actually say the kids were a second or after thought?

Like did that really happen? An NHL coach claimed two talented players on the roster were afterthoughts? Hell, nobody on the roster should be a secondary thought. They're on the team.

I don't know how long we're gonna be on the Yeo train, but I wanna get off immediately.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Did he actually say the kids were a second or after thought?

Like did that really happen? An NHL coach claimed two talented players on the roster were afterthoughts? Hell, nobody on the roster should be a secondary thought. They're on the team.

I don't know how long we're gonna be on the Yeo train, but I wanna get off immediately.

No, and he didn't even mention Thomas by name. He was just trying to say that when the game is close and they are pushing for a win, Tarasenko and Schwartz are going to get more time.

His comments are only an issue if Thomas/Kyrou/Blais get poor ice-time over a 20 game stretch, and in games where we are not chasing a win. Remember, he did put Blais up and Perron down in the Hawks game.

 

[Oberyn]

I was so excited for this season but I feel it's going to be ruined due to Allen and Yeo.

 

[STL fan in MN]

Let me preface this by saying I don’t really like Yeo or think he’s a good enough coach to take this team to the Cup. Just not nearly creative enough.

That said, I don’t really have issues with his recent comments. Most of the young guys have been dreadful defensively. It’s not just about how guys perform when they or their teammates have the puck. If a player’s D/coverage/positioning is hurting the team more than their offensive abilities are helping the team, then they’re not helping. So while a lot of the young guys look pretty good and exciting when they have the puck, they are currently really hurting the team when the opposition has the puck.

Also worth mentioning, plenty of the vets have been playing lax as well. Not as bad as some of the rookies but many of them can certainly be better.

The bottom line is that this is a team with a ton of new players, is still building chemistry, suffered some injuries and has a good amount of rookies on it. It’s not a shock to me they haven’t geled yet and are lacking synergy. It makes sense they’ll need some time to all get on the same page and all pulling in the same direction. There are certainly plenty of concerns but I’m not going to overthink it after 2 games.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Let me preface this by saying I don’t really like Yeo or think he’s a good enough coach to take this team to the Cup. Just not nearly creative enough.

That said, I don’t really have issues with his recent comments. Most of the young guys have been dreadful defensively. It’s not just about how guys perform when they or their teammates have the puck. If a player’s D/coverage/positioning is hurting the team more than their offensive abilities are helping the team, then they’re not helping. So while a lot of the young guys look pretty good and exciting when they have the puck, they are currently really hurting the team when the opposition has the puck.

Also worth mentioning, plenty of the vets have been playing lax as well. Not as bad as some of the rookies but many of them can certainly be better.

The bottom line is that this is a team with a ton of new players, is still building chemistry, suffered some injuries and has a good amount of rookies on it. It’s not a shock to me they haven’t geled yet and are lacking synergy. It makes sense they’ll need some time to all get on the same page and all pulling in the same direction. There are certainly plenty of concerns but I’m not going to overthink it after 2 games.

Agreed. Yeo should be on the chopping block, but not because of the comments or how ice-time has been managed in the first 2 games. There are much bigger issues that he's responsible for that have led to the loses, as well as just new players trying to gel.

 

[Majorityof1]

No, and he didn't even mention Thomas by name. He was just trying to say that when the game is close and they are pushing for a win, Tarasenko and Schwartz are going to get more time.

His comments are only an issue if Thomas/Kyrou/Blais get poor ice-time over a 20 game stretch, and in games where we are not chasing a win. Remember, he did put Blais up and Perron down in the Hawks game.

He only played Blias up because he shortened the bench to 3 lines really early in the game. He stuck heavily with his top 3 pairs, rotating wingers out but keeping one of those pairs on ice at almost all times. Steen-Bozak, Tarasenko-O'Reilly, and Schartz Schenn were on the ice the vast majority of the game. The 3 centers combined for over 60 minutes of TOI (due to sharing PP time). Their respective wingers were within a minute of their time. So for the vast majority of the game, Yeo was trying to rotate 6 forwards in 3 winger spots. Maroon got a ton of PP time, so he came out alright. Everyone else was 10-11 minutes or so, with Thomas getting less. So saying he only did it because it was a tight game is also disingenuous as he made he ostensibly eliminated the 4th line while we were still ahead.