Confirmed with Link: Blues announce 5 year deal with San Antonio Rampage

[JMCx4]

AHL teams get relegated and they can also be promoted, no?

Peoria went from the AHL to the Malt Liquor League. ...

I hope you aren't serious about either of those statements. Relegation isn't part of the North American ice hockey business model. The teams are franchise-based with ties to a specific hockey league. Only Peoria hockey fans are allowed to believe that the four versions of "Rivermen" have all been the same team.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

This article references it:
Golden Knights purchase AHL franchise, Wolves owner confident team will find new NHL partnership

I believe that’s true, but I wish they would have actually quoted the owner instead of paraphrasing him. Frankly, the guy sounds delusional and like a high maintenance partner. The Blues brought in several AHL vets last time around and carried a larger than necessary roster. And he still complained that they weren’t committed to trying to win, etc.

They need a mediator.

 

[STL fan in MN]

AHL teams get relegated and they can also be promoted, no?

Peoria went from the AHL to the Malt Liquor League.

—

A couple of years ago, I did a thorough analysis of AHL-NHL affiliation and, from what I remember, something like 18 or 19 NHL teams own their affiliate with most of the others having long-term contracts in place.

I posted it here, but good luck finding that post.

Um, no. There’s no relegation or promotion among leagues for AHL teams. That sort of model is common in some Euro leagues but not here.

The Blues owned the Rivermen franchise and sold it to the Canucks, who them moved the franchise to Utica. They’ve been the Utica Comets ever since.

The current Rivermen is a completely different franchise that plays in the SPHL...a league even lower than the ECHL.

 

[Stealth JD]

This article references it:
Golden Knights purchase AHL franchise, Wolves owner confident team will find new NHL partnership

Good. We don’t want to rekindle that relationship either . f*** them.

 

[STL fan in MN]

Good. We don’t want to rekindle that relationship either . **** them.

I feel similarly. Eff them. Gives both the Blues and Wolves additional motivation to find others to affiliate with so they’re not stuck with each other.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Can you give the source here? I’m not surprised, but would like to see the quotes.

edit-
I’ve looked all over and I can’t find anything about this.

I might try looking tomorrow, but I definitely recall the Wolves being aggravated with the Blues on at least a couple fronts [see below]. It's why they jumped on the chance to affiliate with anyone else [Vegas] instead of us after the 2016-17 season. [Which put us in the position of having to loan players out all over the AHL where we could find room ... which got Binnington put in Providence, which did a lot for his development and, well, we know how that all played out.]

If I recall the major issues correctly, they thought we were half-assing sending decent players down and not helping them win games; we didn't like the lack of player development for our guys, even though we largely ceded that control to Chicago whose primary focus was and still is "win games, make postseason runs, win titles." I won't say that relationship is irreparable, but I think Chicago will stick with us just long enough to find someone else to align with unless we're willing to bend over backwards to make them happy.

As far as alternatives: I don't see any easy ones. No one has an affiliation agreement that's up until after 2022, and I don't see any of them not getting renewed. The "best" alternative is Syracuse, but I don't think that's necessarily better for us. For teams possibly available to purchase: again, not seeing anything that jumps out. Grand Rapids isn't selling, Rockford isn't selling, Milwaukee is kind of tied down for the next few years, Lehigh Valley is apparently doing great, Syracuse is unlikely to sell, and Hershey flat isn't selling. Maybe you coax Springfield, MA out but I think there's strings attached there too.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Um, no. There’s no relegation or promotion among leagues for AHL teams. That sort of model is common in some Euro leagues but not here.

The Blues owned the Rivermen franchise and sold it to the Canucks, who them moved the franchise to Utica. They’ve been the Utica Comets ever since.

The current Rivermen is a completely different franchise that plays in the SPHL...a league even lower than the ECHL.

Oh yeah! That makes a lot more sense.
Thanks.

I should have known that because during that exhaustive search I noticed that many of the brand names we hear of are reincarnations of a team name, like the Rivermen.

Many others, I’ve noticed were purchased and/or moved and renamed.

What became clear was that team names were simply brands.

Yeah, I forgot that. Thanks.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I hope you aren't serious about either of those statements. Relegation isn't part of the North American ice hockey business model. The teams are franchise-based with ties to a specific hockey league. Only Peoria hockey fans are allowed to believe that the four versions of "Rivermen" have all been the same team.

Different iterations, I get it. Thanks. See other post.

 

[Beauterham]

I mentioned this in another topic, but are the Wolves required to be an NHL-affiliation or are they allowed to play in the AHL without being an affiliate? if not, we might have some leverage: "join us and play by our rules or seize to exist".

 

[STL fan in MN]

I mentioned this in another topic, but are the Wolves required to be an NHL-affiliation or are they allowed to play in the AHL without being an affiliate? if not, we might have some leverage: "join us and play by our rules or seize to exist".

Yes, every AHL team must be affiliated with an NHL team.

I don’t see any “cease to exist” scenario happening though. No threat like that would work or be allowed. And besides, under your scenario, the Wolves could do a similar threat - “play by our rules or don’t have an affiliate.”

But again, it’s a moot point as there are 31 NHL teams ands 31 AHL teams and every AHL team must have an affiliation.

The Wolves will be affiliated with an NHL team and the Blues will be affiliated with an AHL team. Let’s just hope it’s not each other.

 

[bleedblue1223]

We won't have any leverage with Chicago. There is 0 chance that they would leave the AHL, and 0 chance that we'll be able to convince them of changing how they operate. Our best hope is that some of our bigger prospects don't stagnate there. For the most part they don't harm development, but in some cases it's harder for late-bloomers to break through there. Dunn didn't have issues, but for players like Binnington and Kostin, I'm sure it was more of an issue. Blais and Barbashev didn't really have issues, so I'm not that worried, but our prospects just have to perform early.

 

[Brian39]

1. It absolutely does matter if this league had any foresight.

2. I don’t give a fart, you are missing my point. I don’t care if it makes business sense for Vegas, it’s a terrible play for the NHL and AHL respectively. The goal shouldn’t be “move teams closer to there NHL team so they can make more money now” it should be “position teams in major markets to expand hockey’s presence in as many major markets as possible”. San Antonio is the 7th biggest city in the country. There is legitimate potential to get an NHL team there. Why the **** are we moving a team out of there for a market that would be a much more natural home for an ECHL team?

The NHL and AHL should be fighting tooth and nail to get teams to markets like San Antonio, Houston, Portland, Indianapolis, Nashville, and Kansas City. Build Hockey up to increase your potential there long term. Instead we have 6 teams in an already packed California market, 4 in New York State, and many more were the AHL team is within 50 miles of there NHL counterpart, and it is an active hindrance to growing the game in non established hockey marks. It’s stupid. The NBA and NFL have the advantage that every state has multiple college teams, so it’s easy to focus on basketball and football at a young age. Baseball’s minor league setup is great at growing the game in decent sized cities without big league teams. The NHL’s setup has actively harmed any chance they had of growth in the Southern United States, by moving Houston, Oklahoma City, And now San Antonio’s teams to make things cheaper for their respective teams or because San Antonio’s owners were pieces of ****. Now the Stars (The AHL one, not Dallas) won’t have any rivals within 500 miles of them, which was helping the game a ton in Texas.

Which league are you referring to? The NHL and AHL are completely separate business entities.

 

[Brian39]

As far as alternatives: I don't see any easy ones. No one has an affiliation agreement that's up until after 2022, and I don't see any of them not getting renewed. The "best" alternative is Syracuse, but I don't think that's necessarily better for us. For teams possibly available to purchase: again, not seeing anything that jumps out. Grand Rapids isn't selling, Rockford isn't selling, Milwaukee is kind of tied down for the next few years, Lehigh Valley is apparently doing great, Syracuse is unlikely to sell, and Hershey flat isn't selling. Maybe you coax Springfield, MA out but I think there's strings attached there too.

I can't think of a single reason for us to care about existing affiliation agreements. We had an affiliation with the Rampage through 2023 and that was clearly pretty meaningless when the Rampage decided they wanted out of it. Let's go make a better offer to a non-NHL-club-owned team and let them break their agreement with their current affiliate. If anyone around the league wants to be pissed about that we can pass along their complaints to Vegas.

I hope the Blues legal team is looking to fight this. We had a contract and that is generally something that isn't voided by a sale. Even if we couldn't win a case, I'd like to drag it out long enough to ruin year 1 of Vegas' plan.

 

[HelloFriend]

Rockford fan coming in peace.

A Kings blogger tweeted this over the weekend:



I don't know how much stock to take into that, but:

Indy's a good group of people, the geographics are probably a bit better than San Antonio, and they'll probably allow the team to be a developmental one versus the Wolves. Plus, you'd have a good Central division going where MIL/RFD/GR/IA and MAYBE Chicago would share the game load versus only playing SA/TX a handful.

IF the Hawks org ever pulled the team closer to Chicago or decided to move them to Indy, then Rockford's also a good close place and will allow the team to be developmental over what the Wolves have done.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Rockford fan coming in peace.

A Kings blogger tweeted this over the weekend:



I don't know how much stock to take into that, but:

Indy's a good group of people, the geographics are probably a bit better than San Antonio, and they'll probably allow the team to be a developmental one versus the Wolves. Plus, you'd have a good Central division going where MIL/RFD/GR/IA and MAYBE Chicago would share the game load versus only playing SA/TX a handful.

IF the Hawks org ever pulled the team closer to Chicago or decided to move them to Indy, then Rockford's also a good close place and will allow the team to be developmental over what the Wolves have done.

Prior to Seattle getting a team, we looked into Kansas City and Indy, but those negotiations never really went anywhere. The AHL isn't going to have 33 teams, so I don't really see this as being realistic.

 

[TK 421]

I'd be thrilled if it ended up being Rockford we affiliate with.

I hope the fleas of a thousand reindeer nest in Chicago management's genitals, it's not the Blues job to worry about how call ups affect the Wolves. That would be a Wolves problem so maybe they could figure out how to put their collective big boy pants on and do that, though if history is any indication they'll blame the Blues for their own shortcomings just like last time.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

Indy can’t happen until there’s a new team in the NHL, or somebody buys a franchise and moves it there. If Chicago was going to buy the Fuel and fold the franchise, or simply move Rockford there and co-exist with that franchise in the same building, that’s one thing. But without a 33rd NHL team, the Blues can’t convert the Fuel to an AHL franchise to avoid going back to Chicago.

The one thing that might change that is if Stockton folds, and Calgary goes to Chicago instead. That would leave one open spot, which the Blues could use for an Indy franchise, but they would likely have to buy Stockton’s AHL rights to make that happen - like Vancouver did with Peoria and moving it to Utica.

Indy would be a good option for us, but a lot of things would have to go right in a short amount of time.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Indy can’t happen until there’s a new team in the NHL, or somebody buys a franchise and moves it there. If Chicago was going to buy the Fuel and fold the franchise, or simply move Rockford there and co-exist with that franchise in the same building, that’s one thing. But without a 33rd NHL team, the Blues can’t convert the Fuel to an AHL franchise to avoid going back to Chicago.

The one thing that might change that is if Stockton folds, and Calgary goes to Chicago instead. That would leave one open spot, which the Blues could use for an Indy franchise, but they would likely have to buy Stockton’s AHL rights to make that happen - like Vancouver did with Peoria and moving it to Utica.

Indy would be a good option for us, but a lot of things would have to go right in a short amount of time.

I’m just trying to figure out who the Blues can lend to Providence this time. Is that the sneaky strategy?

This situation is maddening.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

I’m just trying to figure out who the Blues can lend to Providence this time. Is that the sneaky strategy?

This situation is maddening.

We were supposed to have five years of stability! I’m still not convinced there isn’t some legal recourse we have to find a solution (like forcing the new Vegas franchise to honor the agreement or something).

This feels like a worst case scenario. Who ever would have thought this would happen?

 

[MissouriMook]

We were supposed to have five years of stability! I’m still not convinced there isn’t some legal recourse we have to find a solution (like forcing the new Vegas franchise to honor the agreement or something).

This feels like a worst case scenario. Who ever would have thought this would happen?

I’m not an attorney but I’ve had to deal with A LOT of different kinds of contracts over the last 35 years and given the fact that this has gone public without any official push back leads me to believe that these affiliation agreements likely have an out clause that can be triggered if there is an ownership change for either party to the agreement.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

The one thing that might change that is if Stockton folds, and Calgary goes to Chicago instead. That would leave one open spot, which the Blues could use for an Indy franchise, but they would likely have to buy Stockton’s AHL rights to make that happen - like Vancouver did with Peoria and moving it to Utica.

As someone not really in the know, I keep seeing Stockton being mentioned. What is the situation there and why are they being brought up as potentially being folded/moved/sold?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I can't think of a single reason for us to care about existing affiliation agreements. We had an affiliation with the Rampage through 2023 and that was clearly pretty meaningless when the Rampage decided they wanted out of it. Let's go make a better offer to a non-NHL-club-owned team and let them break their agreement with their current affiliate. If anyone around the league wants to be pissed about that we can pass along their complaints to Vegas.

I hope the Blues legal team is looking to fight this. We had a contract and that is generally something that isn't voided by a sale. Even if we couldn't win a case, I'd like to drag it out long enough to ruin year 1 of Vegas' plan.

Actually, that typically is voided by a sale. The Blues can fight it, but unless they somehow got a provision in there to keep the affiliation in place even by a sale of the team a lawsuit is going nowhere.

As far as the other agreements: there's provisions that allow either side to opt-out under certain circumstances, but short of buying an AHL team ourselves (which we didn't want a part of when we sold the Rivermen to Vancouver) none of those would appear to be likely to get triggered - especially with a few expiring in another season or two. And again, I don't see anyone independently owned selling for a price that ownership would be willing to pay - which brings me to:

Rockford fan coming in peace.

A Kings blogger tweeted this over the weekend:

The Blackhawks don't own the Rockford franchise: the City of Rockford does, and by all accounts it's profitable. But, let's say Rockford does decide to sell: hell will freeze over before the Blackhawks affiliate with the Wolves, so they'll (easily) outbid the Blues for the IceHogs franchise.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

Actually, that typically is voided by a sale. The Blues can fight it, but unless they somehow got a provision in there to keep the affiliation in place even by a sale of the team a lawsuit is going nowhere.

As far as the other agreements: there's provisions that allow either side to opt-out under certain circumstances, but short of buying an AHL team ourselves (which we didn't want a part of when we sold the Rivermen to Vancouver) none of those would appear to be likely to get triggered - especially with a few expiring in another season or two. And again, I don't see anyone independently owned selling for a price that ownership would be willing to pay - which brings me to:


The Blackhawks don't own the Rockford franchise: the City of Rockford does, and by all accounts it's profitable. But, let's say Rockford does decide to sell: hell will freeze over before the Blackhawks affiliate with the Wolves, so they'll (easily) outbid the Blues for the IceHogs franchise.

Why don’t you think the Hawks would affiliate with the Wolves? I wasn’t aware that there was beef there, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was. It seems like Don Levin is out to burn bridges with the entire Western Conference.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

As someone not really in the know, I keep seeing Stockton being mentioned. What is the situation there and why are they being brought up as potentially being folded/moved/sold?

It’s a long story, but this thread has a good discussion on it (before it goes WAY off the rails towards the end). TL;DR attendance is super low, and negotiations on leasing the stadium from the city aren’t looking positive.

Calgary is a little like us in that they’ve jumped all over the continent trying to find a stable affiliation partnership. I would say that if the Blues don’t end up in Chicago, there’s a fairly good chance that Calgary will instead.

 

[Celtic Note]

Why would the Hawks rather have a team in Indy over Rockford. Rockford is way closer