Post-Game Talk: Blue Jackets 2, Pens 1 (OT) - ****

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Dipsy Doodle

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Two of our most important support players at forward are on the shelf. That's going to mess with the lines regardless, and like it or not, Sid has carte blanche on choosing linemates, or at least making it known what kind of players he enjoys playing with *wink wink*

Regardless of what you attribute it to, it's obvious that it hampers the team's effectiveness. Since when is pointing out obvious problems "hysteria"?

Christ, I hate sounding like a broken record on this too, but it's a glaring problem for a team trying to repeat. Injuries aren't why our lines are ****ed up, because both Sid and Geno could have phenomenal lines right now if the coach ended his blind adherence to depth scoring that doesn't actually score.

And I suppose it's worth repeating for the slow learners: Kessel on one the top two lines makes us just another top heavy team. Advantage gone. The team that already leads the NHL in goals per game will not suddenly add a half a goal per game more because Phil is playing with Sid or Geno. That's not how any of this works.

What exactly is the competitive advantage of Kessel running his own line when the 3rd line can't score?
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Jan 29, 2004
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I suppose this is worth repeating since you seem to be totally missing the point. There is no advantage. That's it. It's not rocket science. The third line blows by every metric, almost every point Kessel has recorded even-strength has nothing to do with Bonino and rarely is he even on the ice when Kessel produces a point. Kessel wasn't absolutely murdering teams on the PP masks some of the 5v5 production issues with the third line.

So to say "advantage gone" is a bit silly when the advantage wasn't there for the past 57 games.

Pens are pretty much ****ed if Bones doesn't fix his game. So it doesn't matter how the lines are configured if we are being totally honest with ourselves. You can't hide an ineffective pivot... everything flows through him.

We can all complain about the lines, about Kunitz and wish the human shield, Kuhn, was playing over Wilson, but Bones is a huge, massive, worrisome problem.

Not sure how many people have been watching the Caps, but the Pens will need all four lines going to have a chance agt them this season.

This team is gambling Bones will flip a switch and it's not looking promising.
 

zhenyas most fly rep

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May 3, 2009
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I'm not going to respond to individual quotes, but to a couple of them in general.

First: Enough "burying your head in the sand" stuff from different posters. It's like media coordination and it's annoying.

Second: The pens won the first two rounds last year with Fehr and Kunitz with Geno, lest we forget. Then we won the next two rounds with Geno centering Kunitz and Rust. Dumb ****, but it worked, because the team's best players were their best players, we caught some breaks, and the stars aligned.

In a cap league, there are are a thousand variables that go into a championship run. I can find way more reasons why we should have been eliminated last spring than come up with reasons why we actually won. Same goes for every Chicago run.

Two of our most important support players at forward are on the shelf. That's going to mess with the lines regardless, and like it or not, Sid has carte blanche on choosing linemates, or at least making it known what kind of players he enjoys playing with *wink wink*

And I suppose it's worth repeating for the slow learners: Kessel on one the top two lines makes us just another top heavy team. Advantage gone. The team that already leads the NHL in goals per game will not suddenly add a half a goal per game more because Phil is playing with Sid or Geno. That's not how any of this works.

What's the advantage of having Kessel being wasted on the 3rd line if they almost do not produce offensively and are pretty likely to be scored on ?

For instance, just making a simple switch between Kessel and Hornqvist to last night lines would increase the overall effectiveness of the team offensively.

Yeah it would worsen the balance of the team but why should we care ?
2nd line would be better, 3rd line would be about the same kind of mediocre line, probably better defensively.

December's lines were almost perfect (without Guentzel that you would now add) but did not please Sullivan for whatever reason.

I mean, it's pretty clear he's pushing for certain lines he would love to work in spite of reality telling him otherwise. (HBK one of them)

One last thing, we shouldn't try to replicate to a tee what we did in last year's playoffs, it's the best way to fail.

Each year is different, there are numerous ways to achieve greatness, let's try what is best for the team THIS year.
That's the reason I wasn't such a fan of seeing so little turnover from last year's lineup.

One thing should be a constant though : building our play around speed and aggressiveness (ie puck pursuit, constantly in your face kind of hockey).
 
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hooverdam

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Feb 21, 2013
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The longer Bonino goes on like this, the more I want to throw something stupid at Colorado for Duchene and then just launch Bonino into the sun. Or go for Hanzal. There is no world in this universe in which Bonino and Kessel together has been an advantage for the Penguins, and Bonino is the entire problem. I don't want to bring in Landeskog/Kane/Gionta because they will be forced into the top 6 and further push Kessel into the bottom 6, solidifying the problem.

If the "slow learners" need it in simpler terms, here it is: Bonino is not going to flip a switch. Bonino is going to be exactly this bad in the playoffs. Kessel is going to do **** all when playoff series are won at even strength, and we are going to be eliminated because our special advantage has been utterly neutralized by Bonino.

Healthy, injured, it doesn't matter. Washington is going to take a massive **** on that third line. Then our dumbass media, who has barely uttered a word against Bonino all season, will blame Kessel for not producing when we needed him and being bad defensively.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

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May 31, 2004
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B...b...but Bonino is guaranteed to turn it on down the stretch... er... in the playoffs! Sun sets, sun comes up, Bonino flips that magical switch. Geez. Get it together, people. Things that worked that one time are iron-clad to happen exactly the same again. Just like after 2009.
 

Speaking Moistly

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Bonino could flip the switch and I don't want to count on that maybe happening. Kessel on L3 or Kessel in the top 6 both need a 3C who isn't useless. Make him a healthy scratch and if that doesn't get his ass in gear to at least be average then they need an upgrade.
 

hooverdam

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Feb 21, 2013
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Bonino could flip the switch and I don't want to count on that maybe happening. Kessel on L3 or Kessel in the top 6 both need a 3C who isn't useless. Make him a healthy scratch and if that doesn't get his ass in gear to at least be average then they need an upgrade.

Kessel in the top 6 can at least help Crosby or Malkin going HAM and winning the whole thing on their own. I'd be willing to sacrifice the third line if it meant we could limit that damage and free up the top 6 to go off.

But you're right, ultimately Bonino is a problem that has to be fixed no matter who is next to him. In an ideal world, we upgrade him and the ripple effect fixes the lines easily.

In reality, I'm not even sure they see him as a problem. Pittsburgh media, at least in writing, seems to be completely ignoring him. He's had absolutely god awful possession numbers this year, like Tanner Glass territory, and the purported stats geek Bill West has just stuck his fingers in his ears and whistled. Usually when the front office sees someone as an issue, it leaks into the media, or Rutherford says something like "I wish we still had Jordan Staal" but none of that's happened yet. That's kind of scary.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

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That's because they are probably fixin' to re-sign him. Hooray!

Just think of all the cross marketing wrasslin' promoting they'd be missing out on if they didn't. You remember HBK, right? Heartbreak Kid? And those funny turban guys? Member?
 

Speaking Moistly

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Kessel in the top 6 can at least help Crosby or Malkin going HAM and winning the whole thing on their own. I'd be willing to sacrifice the third line if it meant we could limit that damage and free up the top 6 to go off.

But you're right, ultimately Bonino is a problem that has to be fixed no matter who is next to him. In an ideal world, we upgrade him and the ripple effect fixes the lines easily.

In reality, I'm not even sure they see him as a problem. Pittsburgh media, at least in writing, seems to be completely ignoring him. He's had absolutely god awful possession numbers this year, like Tanner Glass territory, and the purported stats geek Bill West has just stuck his fingers in his ears and whistled. Usually when the front office sees someone as an issue, it leaks into the media, or Rutherford says something like "I wish we still had Jordan Staal" but none of that's happened yet. That's kind of scary.

They can't afford a line that's dead weight. It's not limiting the damage, it's just a major weakness that will sink them.

Sullivan had a talk with HBK but aside from that... the thing is that Bonino might flip a switch, that's not impossible but it's not something I'd want to gamble on. He's looked less hopeless lately but that's not close to enough of what they need. They at least need an average 3C to facilitate what Phil does or to have a solid third line without Kessel there. They don't really have an internal option to turn to unless they want to try and get those minutes out of Cullen who I'd be shocked to see handle it well. It's why I'm so pissed Bonino has been left alone with this for 99% of the season; they can turn to a trade or hope for a miracle. Once the TDL passes that's it and we're rapidly closing in on that day.

For all of the winger talk the bigger concerns should be the 3C and defensive depth.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

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May 31, 2004
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I have an earth shattering concept. It's weird and wild so hold on to something:

Play your best players with your best players. Positional comfortably allowing.

Crazy, I know. But it's been a thing literally since the start of the sport. So it might just work.
 

MtlPenFan

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Apr 14, 2010
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Pens are pretty much ****ed if Bones doesn't fix his game. So it doesn't matter how the lines are configured if we are being totally honest with ourselves. You can't hide an ineffective pivot... everything flows through him.

We can all complain about the lines, about Kunitz and wish the human shield, Kuhn, was playing over Wilson, but Bones is a huge, massive, worrisome problem.

Not sure how many people have been watching the Caps, but the Pens will need all four lines going to have a chance agt them this season.

This team is gambling Bones will flip a switch and it's not looking promising.

Pretty much this. At least someone gets it.

If Bones continues to be what he is, we're done. Sure, the top six line Kessel finds himself on gets better, but appreciably better? Maybe. Probably. But the 3rd line without him becomes a burning tire that's thrown into a dumpster full of rocket fuel, negating whatever positive gain made by Philippines moving up.
 

NewAgeOutlaw

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Jul 15, 2011
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The "but Sid only wants to play with certain guys" argument is incredibly stupid. Sullivan's job is to do what's best for the team, not cater to what Crosby wants. That's still bad coaching.
 

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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Archibald was returned to WBS today, does that mean that Sheary is close to being back?

I just realized that neither he or Rowney played yesterday and Archibald is now the 14th forward on the roster, so that makes sense why he was returned to WBS.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Jan 29, 2004
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Pretty much this. At least someone gets it.

If Bones continues to be what he is, we're done. Sure, the top six line Kessel finds himself on gets better, but appreciably better? Maybe. Probably. But the 3rd line without him becomes a burning tire that's thrown into a dumpster full of rocket fuel, negating whatever positive gain made by Philippines moving up.

Sullivan is married to Bones there right now, so I don't know how it gets fixed unless JR sees the problem and is proactive about fixing it.

Switching lines around right now is more or less putting a band-aid on the gaping hole in the middle of the team's chest.

Maybe stacking the lines helps them possibly win more games (they are the only team not to lose since the AS break though...), but the problem will still be there when they reach the playoffs, especially agt the Caps, who are four lines deep now.

Pens will just be a top heavy team with no depth scoring, and it will be a complete reversal of how the teams were last season.

Bones... is... a ... huge... issue.
 

Pancakes

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Bonino just isn't very good. It's not an effort thing with him. Asking for more out of him is like asking for more out of Kunitz. Sometimes a player doesn't have more to give. Bones has historically been a 30-40 point center.

He's pretty much on pace for his career averages.
 

Speaking Moistly

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Bonino just isn't very good. It's not an effort thing with him. Asking for more out of him is like asking for more out of Kunitz. Sometimes a player doesn't have more to give. Bones has historically been a 30-40 point center.

He's pretty much on pace for his career averages.

Not really.
1 in 9, 0.11
0 in 26, 0.0
18 in 50, 0.36ppg and 30 points over 82
13 in 27, 0.48ppg and 40 points over 82
49 in 77, 0.64ppg and 52 points over 82
39 in 75, 0.52ppg and 43 points over 82
29 in 63, 0.46ppg and 38 points over 82
22 in 57, 0.39ppg and 32 points over 82

More like 40-50 point centre if he played 82 games and his ppg is the lowest it's been since 2011-12. Now, maybe he's declining at 28 but he's below what he's done for years.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Pretty much this. At least someone gets it.

If Bones continues to be what he is, we're done. Sure, the top six line Kessel finds himself on gets better, but appreciably better? Maybe. Probably. But the 3rd line without him becomes a burning tire that's thrown into a dumpster full of rocket fuel, negating whatever positive gain made by Philippines moving up.

What do you think the 3rd line is now? You're making it seem as though we'd be losing something, which makes me wonder if we're watching the same thing.

Kessel has been lighting it up on the PP, but at ES he's only been getting points during the rare times he's played with Geno. He and Guentzel had been doing pretty well, but Jake's on Sid's line now.

With our injuries, we don't have the personnel to make "Kessel on the 3rd" work. So at the moment, any configuration of xxxxx-Bones-Kessel is going to be garbage anyway. We lose nothing by moving Kessel up to Geno, but gain a lethal combo.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Jun 29, 2009
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Bonino just isn't very good. It's not an effort thing with him. Asking for more out of him is like asking for more out of Kunitz. Sometimes a player doesn't have more to give. Bones has historically been a 30-40 point center.

He's pretty much on pace for his career averages.

In his two full seasons prior to coming to Pittsburgh, Bonino scored 47 and 37 points, respectively. Even last season, in a down year, he was closer to the 37 point pace. Add to that, he's got a point per game winger on his line all season.

He should be a lot closer to the 40 point range than the 30 for him to be producing at an acceptable rate.
 

Pancakes

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Not really.
1 in 9, 0.11
0 in 26, 0.0
18 in 50, 0.36ppg and 30 points over 82
13 in 27, 0.48ppg and 40 points over 82
49 in 77, 0.64ppg and 52 points over 82
39 in 75, 0.52ppg and 43 points over 82
29 in 63, 0.46ppg and 38 points over 82
22 in 57, 0.39ppg and 32 points over 82

More like 40-50 point centre if he played 82 games and his ppg is the lowest it's been since 2011-12. Now, maybe he's declining at 28 but he's below what he's done for years.

Curious what the TOI was like in those seasons. I am guessing prior to coming to the Pens he had more toi.
 

BHD

Vejmelka for Vezina
Dec 27, 2009
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'bout time to talk about tomorrow's game. Further discussion can be taken to the other threads.
 
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