"Blue collar" play in Buffalo and why it trumps skill in most fans' minds

[gallagt01]

Maybe I'm just lucky but I don't run across that many idiots when discussing the Sabres.

You're lucky.

I think even just listening to people around you at games is indicative enough.

 

[joshjull]

You're lucky.

I think even just listening to people around you at games is indicative enough.

Not really

Lots of older season ticket holders. The only idiots I deal with in large numbers are Leaf fans

and my extended family is pretty knowledgable as well.

 

[sba]

Maybe I'm just lucky but I don't run across that many idiots when discussing the Sabres.

You are, I guess it depends on your social situations or what not, but I used to work for a LARGE company in Buffalo and would hear "WGR" takes all the time.

Now most of my friends are not that way, so I can get the intelligent discussion I want or whatever...but being exposed to large pieces of the population when I lived there...I always found the "WGR" mindset to be the prevailing one in most cases.

 

[RazielMoshman]

I dismiss that too. It wasn't true; Briere was the better hockey player.

But Drury came in a proven winner and was a clutch scorer and leader. His not to be discounted. They were both equally as important.

 

[misterchainsaw]

But Drury came in a proven winner and was a clutch scorer and leader. His not to be discounted. They were both equally as important.

How did he come in as a proven winner as a leader? He certainly wasn't a leader in Colorado as a young kid (with Sakic and Blake there), and he was such a great leader in Calgary he was traded after one year of non-playoff hockey (and the Flames made the Cup the year after he left).

And Briere scored just as many clutch goals for the Sabres as Drury did. It just wasn't part of his mystique, so people don't seem to remember that as much.

 

[joshjull]

You are, I guess it depends on your social situations or what not, but I used to work for a LARGE company in Buffalo and would hear "WGR" takes all the time.

Now most of my friends are not that way, so I can get the intelligent discussion I want or whatever...but being exposed to large pieces of the population when I lived there...I always found the "WGR" mindset to be the prevailing one in most cases.

I'm lucky since there are a ton of former hockey players on the Fire Dept. Many having played at various levels (college, CHL, NAHL USHL, OPJHL, etc) Some know some current or former NHL players form skating in the summer with them or through mutual friends. One of the guys in my firehouse was John Scott's d-partner on the Chicago Freeze in the NAHL. So it leads to some interesting hockey talk.

 

[Myllz]

I love how all over the place this thread is.

Blue collar vs. skill
Briere vs. Drury
North American vs. Euro
Cake vs. Pie
North Korea vs. South Korea

 

[joshjull]

I love how all over the place this thread is.

Blue collar vs. skill
Briere vs. Drury
North American vs. Euro
Cake vs. Pie
North Korea vs. South Korea

North Korean cake for the win!!!!

 

[RazielMoshman]

How did he come in as a proven winner as a leader? He certainly wasn't a leader in Colorado as a young kid (with Sakic and Blake there), and he was such a great leader in Calgary he was traded after one year of non-playoff hockey (and the Flames made the Cup the year after he left).

And Briere scored just as many clutch goals for the Sabres as Drury did. It just wasn't part of his mystique, so people don't seem to remember that as much.

I watched every game in Colorado's Stanley Cup final series, I wanted him as a Sabre as soon as I saw him. He didn't have to be a leader, but he was critical in that series.

All I'm saying is that he was an important Sabre, as was Briere, the two most important Sabres.

 

[misterchainsaw]

I watched every game in Colorado's Stanley Cup final series, I wanted him as a Sabre as soon as I saw him. He didn't have to be a leader, but he was critical in that series.

All I'm saying is that he was an important Sabre, as was Briere, the two most important Sabres.

Important? Sure.

Not as important as Briere was to this roster. That's all I'm saying. I'll keep the 1st line centerpiece that allows your talented 2nd line forwards to be hidden from the other teams top defenders over a great PK-ing, very good PP'ing 3rd line center, thanks.

 

[MayDay]

Why does it have to be one or the other?

I want a highly-skilled team that works hard every night. You need both things to win a Cup.

Hard-working players without skill are a dime a dozen. They are fringe NHLers. They are Matt Ellis - 4th liners at best.

Skilled players who don't work hard can slide by on their skill, but never achieve true greatness.

The Hall of Fame is for supremely skilled players who also worked hard.

 

[OcAirlines]

Fans around here too often think that hard work=success. If the team isn't winning they just aren't working or trying hard enough. You always hear "they don't care, or "they're not trying hard enough" and not so much "they're just not talented enough to win".

There is a lot of truth to this imho.

 

[CriminallyVu1gar]

It happens except when it doesn't. There have been players whose play often didn't pass muster by any standard: Kotalik, Afinogenov, Kalinin, and players that never seemed to get a fair shake: Gragnani, Sekera, Hecht, Vanek until recently.

Some of it is characterization. Hecht is not an offensive player, but people still sometimes hate him when he doesn't score. Sekera is not and never has been an offensive defenseman so holding his point totals against him is ridiculous. Vanek, while the highest paid player on the team, is not in Ovechkin's or Crosby's pay class.

As the media and the city are so, so, so hung up on the past, the foul taste past players have left remains in our mouths too long. Sometimes that applies to europeans, sometimes it applies to small players, offensive players, and nutty goaltenders.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

There is a lot of truth to this imho.

There's really not. Very few people seriously believe this team would win a Cup if they tried harder, but they have a history of playing down to terrible competition, in situations where even loser points would've changed the course of a season.

Again, people are mis attributing why people hate this team. It's not "we would be so much better if we had a zillion effort guys" it's "man, if we're going to miss the playoffs, can we at least not be total pushovers," with a sprinkle of "hey, maybe we'd actually be marginally better with a different talent mix instead of bottom six forward Brad Boyes and Assistant Stafford."

 

[misterchainsaw]

There's really not. Very few people seriously believe this team would win a Cup if they tried harder, but they have a history of playing down to terrible competition, in situations where even loser points would've changed the course of a season.

Again, people are mis attributing why people hate this team. It's not "we would be so much better if we had a zillion effort guys" it's "man, if we're going to miss the playoffs, can we at least not be total pushovers," with a sprinkle of "hey, maybe we'd actually be marginally better with a different talent mix instead of bottom six forward Brad Boyes and Assistant Stafford."

I see that attitude all the time among all team's fanbases, frankly. How many people think that the 06-07 team lost because they coasted through the playoffs? It's a sentiment that has been repeated on here, even, among people who actually follow hockey.

The reality is the difference between the 05-06 team and the 06-07 team was that one year the overtimes went in favor of this team (helped largely by Emery not making a single OT save in 05-06), and the OT's went in Ottawa's favor in 06-07.

EDIT: Ironically, you're the one pushing the fact that Briere turned into a perimeter player in those playoffs, and "checked out halfway through the season"....which is complete and utter ********. He was snake bit in the playoffs and still managed to put up around a ppg.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

I see that attitude all the time among all team's fanbases, frankly. How many people think that the 06-07 team lost because they coasted through the playoffs? It's a sentiment that has been repeated on here, even, among people who actually follow hockey.

The reality is the difference between the 05-06 team and the 06-07 team was that one year the overtimes went in favor of this team (helped largely by Emery not making a single OT save in 05-06), and the OT's went in Ottawa's favor in 06-07.

So losing their leading shot-blocker (a huge part of the 2006 defense in general) and arguably best defensive forward (certainly top three) did nothing to change the makeup or performance of the team? Cute.

You're going to great lengths to make that Senators series sound close. If Ottawa had won every OT game in 2006, they win the series 4-1. If Buffalo wins every extra frame the next season, we're going back to Scotia Bank place up a game. Not to mention, the Senators controlled play throughout the first three games of that series, holding the Sabres to 15 shots in game 3, even though they only scored one with Miller standing on his head.

The Sabres' offense never really clicked those playoffs. They generated chances against mediocre Islander and Ranger defensive units but had issues with DiPietro and Lundqvist, then got rolled by the Pizza line and Ottawa's relentless forecheck. Sure, Buffalo had the talent level to win the Cup with the right bounces either year, but 2006 had a different talent mix. One better suited for playoff hockey.

EDIT: Ironically, you're the one pushing the fact that Briere turned into a perimeter player in those playoffs, and "checked out halfway through the season"....which is complete and utter ********. He was snake bit in the playoffs and still managed to put up around a ppg.

Oh, Briere "was just snake bitten," after he found out Drury got a payday and Danny was probably leaving town is completely based in fact.

Either way, you completely ignored the context of the discussion, a poster claiming that Briere was "clearly" the better player, even though Drury was coming off leading the team in playoff goals and shutting down Jagr that Summer while Danny was noticeably off. Acting like there aren't valid arguments for one over the other is flat dumb, and I don't even really have a horse in that race.

 

[misterchainsaw]

So losing their leading shot-blocker (a huge part of the 2006 defense in general) and arguably best defensive forward (certainly top three) did nothing to change the makeup or performance of the team? Cute.

They also added Zubrus and had several young players get better. Ottawa's roster was also better in 05-06 than in 06-07.

You're going to great lengths to make that Senators series sound close. If Ottawa had won every OT game in 2006, they win the series 4-1. If Buffalo wins every extra frame the next season, we're going back to Scotia Bank place up a game. Not to mention, the Senators controlled play throughout the first three games of that series, holding the Sabres to 15 shots in game 3, even though they only scored one with Miller standing on his head.

You're correct that the series wouldn't have ended (for some reason I thought there were 3 OT games in both series), but the series would have gone back to Buffalo for games 6 and 7, not Ottawa. And if we're going to be honest with ourselves, the Sabres were outplayed significantly through most of the 05-06 series as well. If Ottawa gets reasonable goaltending from Emery, Buffalo does not win that series. They got reasonable goaltending from Emery in 06-07.

The Sabres' offense never really clicked those playoffs. They generated chances against mediocre Islander and Ranger defensive units but had issues with DiPietro and Lundqvist, then got rolled by the Pizza line and Ottawa's relentless forecheck. Sure, Buffalo had the talent level to win the Cup with the right bounces either year, but 2006 had a different talent mix. One better suited for playoff hockey.

The Rangers defense was mediocre? Is that why they allowed the 2nd least amount of goals in the Eastern Conference? A goaltender alone doesn't do that. Fact is both the Islanders and Rangers played an extremely conservative style against Buffalo (can't blame them) which resulted in lower scoring games. You can say that's not a style particularly suited to the 06-07 Sabres, but they still won both series in 5 and 6 games respectively

Oh, Briere "was just snake bitten," after he found out Drury got a payday and Danny was probably leaving town is completely based in fact.

Factually untrue.

Either way, you completely ignored the context of the discussion, a poster claiming that Briere was "clearly" the better player, even though Drury was coming off leading the team in playoff goals and shutting down Jagr that Summer while Danny was noticeably off. Acting like there aren't valid arguments for one over the other is flat dumb, and I don't even really have a horse in that race.

I saw no such context in your part of the conversation, and I was completely aware that that conversation was going on in this thread - since I am the person who said it.

Frankly, if your opinion is that Briere checked out halway through the season and didn't play his hardest in the playoffs, you don't have an opinion about the Drury/Briere "debate" that I would give two ***** about. Worth less than nothing.

 

[Beerz]

I disagree.

The same people that never leave Amherst due to irrational fear of their own life are the same people that only like hard-working North Americans on their hockey team.

I don't think it's as pronounced as the OP does, but there's clearly a bias for North American players.

Thomas Vanek's popularity would dwarf Steve Freakin' Ott's if this wasn't the case. I'm of the belief that Vanek is the team's toughest player and would be a folk hero in this town if he was from the mid-west instead of Austria.

I don't know how you jump to those conclusions. Why is it such a bad thing for people not wanting to leave Amherst? ... Why is it that there is some sort of "fear" .... People that are financially able are going to choose the most desireable place to live...based on schools, employment, value, comfort, and yes...even safety. People living in bad parts of a city would jump at the chance to live in a place like Amherst or any other decent suburb. That whole article is bunk...but I'd expect nothing less from Salon. Somehow places like Chinatown or Little Italy or the Bronx are looked upon in a positive light and a cultural mecca but you have a problem with a place like Amherst? .. Weird. There is nothing to suggest that the people of Buffalo are anti-foreigner, anti-intellectual or racist... Its nothing more than stereotypical ******** void of any facts.

For the most part..Vanek is worshiped here... he's the star of the team the fact that he's the most talented puts him under the microscope more than a Steve Ott.. Yeah... Vanek gets ragged on but its because more is expected of him...look at good ole American boy Ryan Miller...he gets dumped on because people expect a lot out of him.

Myself..I don't care where you come from..if you work hard and show that you care I'm going to respect you no matter how many goals you score (kaleta, Ott) They're in the same category as Varada was back in the day. Nobody cares where anybody is from if they play the game how each person considers how the game should be played.

I hate Semin....but my favorite player of all time was Vladimir Konstantinov. I hated Tim Connolly .. but loved Matt Barnaby.