"Blue collar" play in Buffalo and why it trumps skill in most fans' minds

[gallagt01]

Hockey is a great sport because it takes hard work to win. I dont care how skilled you are, if you don't work you wont be a consistent winner.

Hard work and winning go together. Skill and winning do not go together, you need the hard work to bring it all together.

I agree that you need to work hard. But it doesn't matter how hard you work if you don't have skill. Matt Ellis isn't in the NHL because he doesn't have skill. Granted, there are some players (albeit less players) who never made it because they didn't work hard (for example, Rob Schremp), but I'd imagine the ratio is very much in favor of the skilled players.

 

[Afino]

This is town where Maxim Afinogenov was one of the team's most popular players. I think you guys are overstating the point a bit.

*walks away slowly*

 

[OcAirlines]

Interesting thread, and I tend to agree with the main point. Many people seem to think that substracting skilled (but soft) players and just replacing them with hard-working physical guys will instantly make a team better, but I think this isn't a case. You obviously need both and, incidentally or not, this team has actually shifted its focus from speed/skill towards toughness over the last few seasons, and ironically has gotten gradually worse since this process began. Of course that doesn't say that toughness and a hard working attitude aren't working, but concentrating too much on that aspect of the game is just as short-sighted as only playing smallish skill guys.

 

[Sabre Dance]

I agree that you need to work hard. But it doesn't matter how hard you work if you don't have skill. Matt Ellis isn't in the NHL because he doesn't have skill. Granted, there are some players (albeit less players) who never made it because they didn't work hard (for example, Rob Schremp), but I'd imagine the ratio is very much in favor of the skilled players.

Thats not what i was saying. What Im saying is you cant win without hardwork. Crosby is one of the hardest working playing in the NHL.

Lets say your skill is average to above average and your effort is elite. Your going to win a lot of games IMO. Obviously you want the Crosby's and Toews, guys that have elite skill and elite effort.

 

[HockeyH3aven]

I disagree in principle, but I understand the point.

Hockey is a blue-collar sport. Much moreso than in any other sport, hard work and extra effort can win games.

My counterpoint would be this: Which team do you think would be more likely to win a Stanley Cup.... A team of Steve Otts, or a team of Ilya Kovalchuks?

Ilya is clearly more skilled, but in a playoff series, I'm going with the Otts.

This proves the point right here.

 

[Ace1963]

I'm going to offend quite a number of people here so I apologize in advance.

Look at Buffalo in general. Hard working blue collar town that in many ways is anti-intellectual, anti-foreigner, loves an underdog as it is one, and still slightly racist. It is a city that is at a cross roads between the mentality of the 70's and today. I admit this is a very broad brush to paint Buffalo with and it does not fit everyone. It is simple enough to see how this extends to what we want to see in the team. A bunch of straightforward, hard working blue collar, north american boys, who punch above their weight class (Joe Mesi?) give it their all and we can get behind. In fact, does a busted, looser, beat down city like this even deserve a winning team?

I am not saying that I believe this but I see it enough in conversations both in and out of sports in Buffalo that I think it has merit.

I'm only offended by your ignorance. Please give us specific and cited examples to support your horrid accusations.

 

[Beerz]

I'm going to offend quite a number of people here so I apologize in advance.

Look at Buffalo in general. Hard working blue collar town that in many ways is anti-intellectual, anti-foreigner, loves an underdog as it is one, and still slightly racist. It is a city that is at a cross roads between the mentality of the 70's and today. I admit this is a very broad brush to paint Buffalo with and it does not fit everyone. It is simple enough to see how this extends to what we want to see in the team. A bunch of straightforward, hard working blue collar, north american boys, who punch above their weight class (Joe Mesi?) give it their all and we can get behind. In fact, does a busted, looser, beat down city like this even deserve a winning team?

I am not saying that I believe this but I see it enough in conversations both in and out of sports in Buffalo that I think it has merit.

I'm not offended....but ... these points have no basis.

"anti-intellectual, anti-foreigner" and still slightly racist. "

 

[pigpen65]

Wait, Buffalo values hard work and blue collar? How exactly? The team they have since Ruff was fired is the definition of hard working and blue collar and they get booed on home ice in important games they win. A much better thread would have been why do Buffalo fans like to think of themselves as valuing blue collar hard working teams when they really don't.

 

[HockeyH3aven]

Wait, Buffalo values hard work and blue collar? How exactly? The team they have since Ruff was fired is the definition of hard working and blue collar and they get booed on home ice in important games they win. A much better thread would have been why do Buffalo fans like to think of themselves as valuing blue collar hard working teams when they really don't.

Fans around here too often think that hard work=success. If the team isn't winning they just aren't working or trying hard enough. You always hear "they don't care, or "they're not trying hard enough" and not so much "they're just not talented enough to win".

 

[Shoey]

I'm not offended....but ... these points have no basis.

"anti-intellectual, anti-foreigner" and still slightly racist. "

It's not completely without basis.

Buffalo is the 6th moth segregated city in the United States.

http://www.salon.com/2011/03/29/most_segregated_cities/slide_show/5

 

[FoSotC]

I'm not offended....but ... these points have no basis.

"anti-intellectual, anti-foreigner" and still slightly racist. "

It's anecdotal, but having lived in the city of Buffalo for nearly all of my life, I personally have to agree with that viewpoint. This city is still quite self-segregated and I've always felt a sort of "good ol' boy" vibe from a majority of the people here. Maybe it depends on what part(s) of the city you frequent and it's nowhere near as bad as it once was but from what I've experienced where I'm at and where I've been, it's present.

As for the bias toward "blue collar" play, I think it's there, but the love for Ott probably stems not only from his style of play, but also the fact that he was the "replacement" for Roy, who was the kind of pretty-boy, flamboyant personality that never seemed to sit too well with a lot of the locals in my experience.

 

[Beerz]

It's not completely without basis.

Buffalo is the 6th moth segregated city in the United States.

http://www.salon.com/2011/03/29/most_segregated_cities/

Which means absolutely nothing.

 

[SuperNintendoChalmrs]

Isn't Buffalo the headquarters for MENSA?

 

[kenfury]

I'm only offended by your ignorance. Please give us specific and cited examples to support your horrid accusations.

I am not talking about anyone on this board. I grew up in Buffalo, and have lived in Florida, Vegas, and Seattle until I moved back. During my travels I never heard *negro* yet somehow it is tolerated here in Buffalo. Driving while black is still considered a funny joke. Same with anti-guy slurs. This area is not exactly brimming with PhDs either nor does it have a fine arts community to hang its hat on and the BPO is always scraping by for finances. The neighborhoods in the city are still racial divided. As I said originally I was painting with an unnecessarily broad brush. However it is in sharp contrast with the more cosmopolitan metro areas around the country. I'm going to not continue the conversation as it is germane to this thread. If anyone wants to continue perhaps the OT thread is the place to discuss it.

 

[Zip15]

I disagree in principle, but I understand the point.

Hockey is a blue-collar sport. Much moreso than in any other sport, hard work and extra effort can win games.

My counterpoint would be this: Which team do you think would be more likely to win a Stanley Cup.... A team of Steve Otts, or a team of Ilya Kovalchuks?

Ilya is clearly more skilled, but in a playoff series, I'm going with the Otts.

No...just no. The Kovalchuks. In a walk.

 

[couture23]

It's not completely without basis.

Buffalo is the 6th moth segregated city in the United States.

http://www.salon.com/2011/03/29/most_segregated_cities/slide_show/5

This would explain the purple houses on the outskirts of Buffalo bordering the I-90.

 

[Shoey]

Which means absolutely nothing.

I disagree.

The same people that never leave Amherst due to irrational fear of their own life are the same people that only like hard-working North Americans on their hockey team.

I don't think it's as pronounced as the OP does, but there's clearly a bias for North American players.

Thomas Vanek's popularity would dwarf Steve Freakin' Ott's if this wasn't the case. I'm of the belief that Vanek is the team's toughest player and would be a folk hero in this town if he was from the mid-west instead of Austria.

 

[joshjull]

All I got from the OP is that he has some old friends that aren't too bright when it comes to hockey.

As for the attacks on Buffalo and its hockey fans..... meh


Sabres fans have always enjoyed tough guys, exciting guys and hard working guys regardless of where they came from. Sometimes we had guys that had 2 or all 3 of those characteristics.

 

[Shoey]

For what it's worth I don't think Buffalo is alone on this... Euro-bias is league wide more or less.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

No...just no. The Kovalchuks. In a walk.

Agreed. But I also think Kovalchuk is a bad-to-terrible example of a one-dimensional winger, and that a line certainly exists where pure offense loses out to well-rounded, physical players.

Also, I never framed the question this thread poses as "an offensive good-to-great team vs. a bad physical team" but as "winning and exciting hockey don't always have to go hand-in-hand." People love the 95-96 team because they responded to Muckler hitting the reset button by being an absolutely brutal team to play against. That foundation carried into the success of the late-90s squad.

The current incarnation of the team gets so much hate because its been built around second rate offensive players with precious little intensity between 2007 and the deadline, and the few opportunities to break this cycle have been snuffed out by Golisano, Regier and Ruff, and as long as even one of those guys are here or the team starts really winning, it's going to feel that reputation.

 

[joshjull]

For what it's worth I don't think Buffalo is alone on this... Euro-bias is league wide more or less.

The problem with trying to turn this into a Euro -vs- North American thing is it makes absolutely ZERO sense in light of the Sabres recent history.

Fans have been screaming for Pommer, Vanek, Stafford, Miller and Myers heads all year long and blaming them for the team sucking. Last year Roy and Goose could be added to the mix. A large segment of fans want them gone. So thats a bunch of North Americans and one European player. Yet Ott gets praised and is held up on a pedestal higher than his skill warrants and that equals Euro bashing?

And as someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, Fans were through the roof excited for Grigs and very badly wanted him to make the team. You also don't hear fans complaining about Ehrhoff or wanting him gone like the others. Fans generally like him.

 

[gallagt01]

All I got from the OP is that he has some old friends that aren't too bright when it comes to hockey.

Ever listen to WGR callers?

It's not just the people mentioned in my original post.

I don't think it's as invisible as some are implying. The bias towards "blue collar" players is real. It's the reason Drury was and always will be held in higher regard around Buffalo than Briere. Briere was undoubtedly the better player.

 

[sba]

And as someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, Fans were through the roof exciting for grigs and very badly wanted him to make the team. You also don't hear fans complaining about Ehrhoff or wanting him gone like the others. Fans generally like him.

I think that has a lot to do with him being a prized FA.

You DO see that about Sekera, who is a non-physical player, who also doesn't score a ton - but is actually a very good player.

This bias has existed since at least the Nolan teams, it's kind of sickening. The fact that people were pumped to be rid of a great player like Pominville sickens me. The same with people wanting Miller and Vanek gone, yet clinging to Steve Ott like he's gods gift to the NHL.

 

[gallagt01]

And as someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, Fans were through the roof excited for Grigs and very badly wanted him to make the team. You also don't hear fans complaining about Ehrhoff or wanting him gone like the others. Fans generally like him.

I think that has a lot to do with him being a prized FA.

You DO see that about Sekera, who is a non-physical player, who also doesn't score a ton - but is actually a very good player.

This bias has existed since at least the Nolan teams, it's kind of sickening. The fact that people were pumped to be rid of a great player like Pominville sickens me. The same with people wanting Miller and Vanek gone, yet clinging to Steve Ott like he's gods gift to the NHL.

I'm going to echo sba's sentiment and add to it. I do believe that Grigorenko generated so much excitement and fans couldn't wait to see him because he was held in high regard leading up to the draft. The idea of elite skill is an intriguing prospect. But I've heard several people talk about Grigorenko as an underachieving euro since he joined the team - probably because his game isn't Ryan Getzlaf's.

I have an inkling that he's going to be a hated player when he cracks Buffalo's roster full time because he possesses elite skill and has size but doesn't play a physical brand of hockey.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

It's the reason Drury was and always will be held in higher regard around Buffalo than Briere. Briere was undoubtedly the better player.

Briere turning into a perimiter player looking for a payday in the 2007 playoffs has absolutely nothing to do with it...