Blowing it up

RedHot

Fire Dave Cameron (Fired)**
Aug 6, 2014
1,219
172
Calgary
Is it time to have an honest conversation about completely blowing up this roster? Let’s go over some of the issues that the Flames face, dating back to the last quarter of last season (and before that). This is a team that is built fundamentally wrong to compete in the West, and in the NHL in general.

- The team is slow. At least half of the forward group are below average skaters. They just cannot push the pace.

- The team is soft. This doesn’t mean fighting. This means players who actually battle for pucks. How many flames forwards would you trust to actually win a puck battle in the corner. I could count them on one hand (Lindholm, Tkachuk, Ryan, maybe Backlund)

- No depth on the current NHL roster. I’d say over the past 3 or 4 years the Flames have had a horrid bottom 6, and that doesn’t appear to be changing this year. The defensive depth is ok, but nothing special. We rely massively on Gio, who is still elite, but there aren’t really and difference makers back there. Maybe Andersson could be soon, but who knows.

- The organizational depth, at this point, is downright scary. There’s some decent forwards, but nothing to write home about. That’s including Dube. Outside of Valimaki, who we don’t know what he is yet, the defense is worse. This is a by product of graduating some younger defensemen, but still. Let’s not even talk about the goalie situation.

Is there even a reason to be optimistic about the way this team is built? We can be Corsi gods, but who here would actually trust the Flames in a 2-1 game in the playoffs?
 
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Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
46,457
14,766
Victoria
That's a deadline conversation.

Honestly, the Flames are in a pretty good position if things were to go that way. Lots of pending UFAs with non-terrible value. But there is so much time between now and when that would happen. In the Pacific, we're not even really falling that far behind right now.
 
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lightstorm

Registered User
Oct 17, 2016
2,239
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Better hope there's a huge demand for soft, slow, mentally weak players, because what GM doesnt want more of those.
 

InfinityIggy

Zagidulin's Dad
Jan 30, 2011
36,084
12,864
59.6097709,16.5425901
It’s not something to consider until the offseason really.

Even then blowing it up I don’t think is the answer for us. Tkachuk and Lindholm, Monahan as well are all in early prime and their best chance of winning is in the next 5 years. A total blowup is a waste of their prime years.
 
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Sparky93

Registered User
Dec 30, 2010
7,004
1,041
Other than Johnny, Tkachuk and Lindholm, you do anything possible to either A) upgrade on Monahan or B) get a scoring 2C

If you can’t do that, whether now or in the offseason, you blow it up
Losing Monahan, in an upgrade for himself, does nothing. Even with a high end, play driving centre, the team is still a one line team. Far too easy to shut down as long as Tkachuk is the only other bonified top 6 player on the team.
 

AVE MAN

Registered User
Sep 29, 2003
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I think blowing it up is a bit of an over-reaction. Reality is there's a lot of good teams in the West and unfortunately, some of those good teams are going to miss the playoffs. As an outsider, watching the Flames, I believe their defense is top 5 in the league and they have good depth across the 4 lines. Giordano is great obviously but I cant believe how good Rasmus Andersson is. The more I watch him, the more impressed I am.
 
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Mobiandi

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
20,933
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I would be content if they were plodding along at wild card pace and turned up the intensity in the new year, but they resemble a bottom 5 team most nights. Their record on the road is especially bad.

Everything about this team from top to bottom is soft, perimeter play (with the exception of Tkachuk whose entire game is on the perimeter but isn't soft and creates space for others) topped with a hopeful low percentage wrister from the point or bad angle.

How bad is it that Derek Ryan is the only player on this team displaying any penetrative ability through the middle of the ice?

This core is sitting on strike 3 and right now things look bad. If they fail, I would go full retool and make trades via player swaps. Futures are a pipe dream because few teams have cap space to take our players on outright
 
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InfinityIggy

Zagidulin's Dad
Jan 30, 2011
36,084
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59.6097709,16.5425901
I would be content if they were plodding along at wild card pace and turned up the intensity in the new year, but they resemble a bottom 5 team most nights. Their record on the road is especially bad.

Everything else about this team from top to bottom is soft, perimeter play (with the exception of Tkachuk whose entire game is on the perimeter but isn't soft and creates space for others) topped with a hopeful low percentage wrister from the point or bad angle.

How bad is it that Derek Ryan is the only player on this team displaying any penetrative ability through the middle of the ice?

This core is sitting on strike 3 and right now things look bad. If they fail, I would go full retool and make trades via player swaps. Futures are a pipe dream because few teams have cap space to take our players on outright

Nobody is going to swap up equal players for guys like Gaudreau and Monahan in season. It just never happens with very rare exception for forwards. Only one I can even think of as plausible is Taylor Hall, and we lose that swap all day because of contracts.

If we decide to send those guys out the door, there are going to be a lot of disappointed fans because we almost certainly are going to get back lesser roster player + some okay futures. It's simply how these things go.

If we want actual hockey deals we have to wait until the draft.
 

Kranix

Deranged Homer
Jun 27, 2012
18,148
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If they're out of it at the deadline, trade all expiring UFA contracts.
 
Jan 29, 2009
4,646
1,895
Edmonton/Calgary
Our issues are really hard to fix. We aren't getting a first line center. We laugh at the Oilers, but they can see the light at the end of the tunnel, as all they have to do is wait for some bad contracts to come off and then fill in some depth, which is much easier than finding a first line center.
 
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InfinityIggy

Zagidulin's Dad
Jan 30, 2011
36,084
12,864
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Our issues are really hard to fix. We aren't getting a first line center. We laugh at the Oilers, but they can see the light at the end of the tunnel, as all they have to do is wait for some bad contracts to come off and then fill in some depth, which is much easier than finding a first line center.

Even their 'bad contracts' aren't so bad now. They don't have the Lucic contract anymore and with the way Neal is trending if they wanted to move his contract they probably wouldn't actually have that much trouble now.
 

JPeeper

Hail Satan!
Jan 4, 2015
11,599
8,716
Trading Monahan would be the dumbest thing the Flames have done since trading Gilmour for nothing. Regardless of whether you think he sucks or not, you need center depth and we can't be trading away 60-80 point centers when our next options are an aging and declining Backlund and Derek Ryan. The notion of trading him for an upgraded center is ridiculous, no one is going to trade their better center for a worse one, that's asinine.

Even if you move Lindholm to #1 center then you have the luxury of Monahan as #2 center. Backlund at #2 center is killing us right now, he just doesn't have the offensive game to play in the top 6 and Tkachuk is void of talented linemates. I have no idea why Peters isn't splitting Monahan and Lindholm up for the 1-2 center punch. The top line isn't producing so maybe try something new for more than a game and a half. Lindholm-Gaudreau, Monahan-Tkachuk.

I know I'll be in the minority because 99% of Flames fans hate Monahan, but Gaudreau has completely killed Monahan's game. Split them up for 10+ games and see Monahan actually play with the puck, he's actually pretty good with it when he doesn't defer to Gaudreau 3 times a shift.
 

Mobiandi

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
20,933
17,305
Our issues are really hard to fix. We aren't getting a first line center. We laugh at the Oilers, but they can see the light at the end of the tunnel, as all they have to do is wait for some bad contracts to come off and then fill in some depth, which is much easier than finding a first line center.
It's going to get worse before it gets better for the Oilers. They're a cap team and 8 of their forwards are UFAs and 5 of their Dmen are RFAs at the end of the season.

For the life of me, I'll never understand why we took Lucic's contract on. Give Neal a second chance and if he sucks, give him the Loui Eriksson pressbox treatment
 
Jan 29, 2009
4,646
1,895
Edmonton/Calgary
It's going to get worse before it gets better for the Oilers. They're a cap team and 8 of their forwards are UFAs and 5 of their Dmen are RFAs at the end of the season.

For the life of me, I'll never understand why we took Lucic's contract on. Give Neal a second chance and if he sucks, give him the Loui Eriksson pressbox treatment

I agree, but having the luxury of building around McD is huge and they have some half decent D prospects.
 
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Spirits

Avalanche and Vikings
Jul 12, 2014
2,911
2,707
You guys not big on Sam Bennett anymore? Don't worry guys, you have a beaten up and badly injured Avalanche team coming up on Tuesday. We are starting AHL goalies at the moment, missing 2/3s of our top line, our fiery heart and soul player Calvert is out (presumably).
 
Jan 29, 2009
4,646
1,895
Edmonton/Calgary
Trading Monahan would be the dumbest thing the Flames have done since trading Gilmour for nothing. Regardless of whether you think he sucks or not, you need center depth and we can't be trading away 60-80 point centers when our next options are an aging and declining Backlund and Derek Ryan. The notion of trading him for an upgraded center is ridiculous, no one is going to trade their better center for a worse one, that's asinine.

Even if you move Lindholm to #1 center then you have the luxury of Monahan as #2 center. Backlund at #2 center is killing us right now, he just doesn't have the offensive game to play in the top 6 and Tkachuk is void of talented linemates. I have no idea why Peters isn't splitting Monahan and Lindholm up for the 1-2 center punch. The top line isn't producing so maybe try something new for more than a game and a half. Lindholm-Gaudreau, Monahan-Tkachuk.

I know I'll be in the minority because 99% of Flames fans hate Monahan, but Gaudreau has completely killed Monahan's game. Split them up for 10+ games and see Monahan actually play with the puck, he's actually pretty good with it when he doesn't defer to Gaudreau 3 times a shift.

If they aren't blowing it up this is what needs to happen. It's easier to acquire a good top 6 winger than a first line center. We really need to bump Backs down and have Frolik out of the top 6.. I think Mangi in the top 6 is alright, as he has a good shot and can actually drive the play a bit.. Obviously acquiring Zuker and Kadri would've been huge and would've addressed lots of our problems.

JG - EL - XX

MT - SM - AM

We really need a good top 6 winger that is half decent at defense and has some speed. Jankowski needs to just go at this point and should be waived.

Then there's the system we're running of cruddy low quality shots hoping for a tip, which is pretty much crap.
 

Spirits

Avalanche and Vikings
Jul 12, 2014
2,911
2,707
1 person is, that's about it. The rest have come to the realization he is a 3rd liner at best.
The last time I looked here was during the playoffs last year, he was more highly touted at that time apparently.
 

Mobiandi

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
20,933
17,305
The last time I looked here was during the playoffs last year, he was more highly touted at that time apparently.
He's a big game player. He's actually been our most dependable playoff forward in all three years we've made it into the postseason and is great in fiery regular season games.

But when it comes to putting things together in the slog of the regular season, when the games are both plentiful and forgettable, it just hasn't clicked here. I think he came in more raw than our amateur scouts expected and Glen Gulutzan did a fine job of killing his confidence over two years. Nowadays, he's not as dynamic of a threat as he was coming into the league and most of what he does on the ice doesn't look like muscle memory, but rather a conscious effort, resulting in some low IQ decisions that come from overthinking his next move

With a clean state somewhere else, I think there's a good chance he could become a top 6 player
 

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