Bloody brilliant move by the owners cancelling the draft...

[mooseOAK*]

Set a a mutually agreed upon budget??

League has a funny way of showing that by moving towards Imapsse and Implementation in order to put their own self imposed CBA in place ..

Maybe I'm just reading to much into Mutually agreed upon .. !!!!

A CBA by definition is a mutually agreed upon document and this is what they have been trying to achieve.

 

[Mess]

A CBA by definition is a mutually agreed upon document and this is what they have been trying to achieve.

While that is true ..

You may have noticed that the other side agrees to very little the NHL is offering or suggesting...

Its also a very nice gesture on the NHL part to lockout the other side, refuse to pay them their guaranteed contracts, offer to cut their wages significantly, suggest replacing with Replacement workers ....and then suggest this the best way to get a MUTUALLY agreed upon settlement .. Sounds a lot closer to Black Mail by definition.

.. and the topic was Budgets though .. Last time I checked with Safeway or Sears or any other business they never required a Hard Cap to be able to have budgets and follow them in order to make money.

Even with a Hard Cap .. I hope a lot of teams realize that they still have to pay attention to their markets and costs or they will lose money at the end of the year .. and the hard cap should not be considered a magnet to spend foolishly above their means ..

 

[Bauer83]

We lost an entire season because of 4 million dollars. I don't see how you could possibly think Bettman is winning.

Once this is all settled Bettman will be lucky to have a job in the NHL.

Its narrow minded thinking like yours as to why players are still in this mess. First of all the players are the ones who said flat out it was not about 4 million dollars. So start looking into the facts about what happened that saturday. It was about a ton of issues.

 

[mooseOAK*]

While that is true ..

You may have noticed that the other side agrees to very little the NHL is offering or suggesting...

Its also a very nice gesture on the NHL part to lockout the other side, refuse to pay them their guaranteed contracts, offer to cut their wages significantly, suggest replacing with Replacement workers ....and then suggest this the best way to get a MUTUALLY agreed upon settlement .. Sounds a lot closer to Black Mail by definition.

.. and the topic was Budgets though .. Last time I checked with Safeway or Sears or any other business they never required a Hard Cap to be able to have budgets and follow them in order to make money.

Even with a Hard Cap .. I hope a lot of teams realize that they still have to pay attention to their markets and costs or they will lose money at the end of the year .. and the hard cap should not be considered a magnet to spend foolishly above their means ..

The players have never, ever said that they will favour a system that is fair to both sides. So that works both ways.

The NHL situation isn't like Safeway and Sears, it is like the NFL and NBA who have salary caps.

True, when there is a hard cap and teams still lose money then that is their problem.

If you don't want a salary cap then this whole site may as well not exist for fans of small market teams. If Florida has a great group of prospects then it shouldn't matter to their fans because once the best ones hit their prime and want the highest salary they can get then they will end up being Leafs, Flyers, or Rangers. Just look at MLB.

 

[kdb209]

Absolutely a draft is part of a CBA .. but it has to be agreed upon by both the NHL and NHLPA ... In this case if the draft class can earn more money as UFA rather then Entry level Contracts why would the NHLPA not support UFA .. but mostly I think this has to do with timing .. many players like say Crosby may want to turn pro .. With no draft they are limited in their options .. This includes the previous drafts as well .. If September comes and hockey begins in other leagues then the players may have gone to court in the summer to have their status ruled on .. Any future CBA after that time can't change history if it occurs after that point ..

Also just for clarification on your second point .. Players do not become NHLPA members until they have officially played their very first game in the NHL .. Then they are automatically enroled in the Union and Union Fees comes off their first Pay Cheque until that time drafted or not, they are not members so they wouldn't be certified .. Players like Alex Ovechkin and Jeff Carter or Al Montoya even while they have been drafted are not voting members of a current NHLPA ..

A couple of points.

Players don't become official dues paying & voting members of the NHLPA untill they play their first game, but they become part of the bargaining unit and agree to all the terms of the CBA the moment they sign their NHL contract - that is included in the standard players contract. That is precisely why the draft is legal. A draftee is not a member of the union when he is picked, but when he signs that contract, he agrees to be retroactively bound by the terms of the CBA, and gives up any individual action to sue for anti trust / restraint of trade.

The status of unsigned draftees (and the potential 2005 and later draft classes) will all be covered by the CBA. And don't think for a moment the PA really gives a damn about draftees - they were more than glad to sell them down the river with the ELS before, and would very likely do it again. I don't see the NHL agreeing to any CBA which makes unsigned or current eligible draftees UFAs, and I don't see the PA seeing this as a make or break issue - they may use it for some bargaining leverage, but they will give in on it.

Unsigned draftees and draft eligible players will only have grounds for action if and when the league actually starts signing players again.

If it is an impasse CBA scenerio, their status will be covered in the imposed CBA - now there is some question of the legality of the draft in an imposed CBA and whether an imposed CBA could only cover current working conditions (pay etc) and that restraint of trade issues like the draft could only be covered in a negotiated CBA, but thats another issue.

In a non-impasse replacement player scenerio, there is no grounds for a draft, and if the NHL starts signing replacement players, then unsigned draftees and current draft eligibles would have action if they were not treated as UFAs, but also remember that by definition replacement workers are treated as temporary workers. There would be nothing that would prevent a draft eligible player from being signed as a replacement player as a temporary UFA and then later being subject to the draft provisions of a negotiated CBA. Sidney Crosby could very well find himselp playing as a replacement player in Mtl and later be drafted by the Caps for example.

Also, this cancellation of the draft was not really a cancellation of the draft, it was a cancellation of the draft events. Bettman, Daly, and others have said all along, no CBA, no draft, so this is no surprise. However they were coming up on a deadline to have to pay $$$'s for the events in Ottawa (hotel rooms, etc) and decide that there was no point in shelling out the $'s, so thet officially cancelled the draft related events. Once a CBA is in place (or they gamble on an Impasse and an Imapsse CBA allowing a draft) they can quickly hold a draft without all the hoopla and ceremonies before opening camps.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

For the record..

Who here thinks that more than 6-7 teams would have spent up to 45 million... Heck..Even 42.5 million...?

I bet if we held a poll, the numbers would be so lopsided with that view.... There is no way.. NO WAY that more than 6-7 teams would spend to a cap..Max at one given time MIGHT be 10... Most would hang around the 30-35 million range on any given sunday...



Now that I said that.... it was not just about 4 million dollars... It was about the little(big) issues like arbitration and crap...(not to say if the cap was not higher, they may have given more on the little things)..

It was not so much about how many teams would approach the Cap, but the effect that those are maxing their Cap spending will have on all salaries . . . Bettman's 'magnet' theory. Apparently the NHL crunched the numbers and accounting for the magnet effect of the top salaries $42 million is as far as they could go. It was not $4 million total apart or even $4 million per team apart . . . it was the aggregate effect on all salaries. Proof is in the pudding, the NHL lost the season over this number so $42 million must have been their limit. God knows what the limit is now, we can only assume lower though.

 

[SedinFan*]

Yes, a mere 4 million dollars. Chump change.

120 million per overall, since there are 30 teams. So that 4 million quickly turns into a possible number of 120 million. Not just chump change.

 

[Mighty Duck]

I may not like it ( i looove the draft and look forward to the Hockey news and the event that is the draft) but i think the PA beleives in pressure points and the crosby thing was probably one of them.
KABOOM, bye bye pressure point!!

I may not like Bettman but he has outplayed Goodenow as far as the chess match of collective bargaining goes.

I was surprise but i think it was a briallant move by the league to take away the pressure point from the players. The other example of the NHL outwitting the PA is the lack of the dropdead date, it must have drove Goodnow and the players nutting waiting and waiting.

Great point, as yes Bettman is winning. No hockey for the 04/05 season and counting. Yep, great move Bettman, what's your next move, replacement hockey for 05/06. Boy that should really jam the buildings to the rafters. I can see it now, NBC, ABC & CBS fighting over who will carry the games on their network! The best part is the $10 dollar tickets to see NHL hockey by Bettman.

 

[mytor4*]

Great point, as yes Bettman is winning. No hockey for the 04/05 season and counting. Yep, great move Bettman, what's your next move, replacement hockey for 05/06. Boy that should really jam the buildings to the rafters. I can see it now, NBC, ABC & CBS fighting over who will carry the games on their network! The best part is the $10 dollar tickets to see NHL hockey by Bettman
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but i bet they will get more than 800 or so that smith and the boys got. hehe

 

[reckoning]

I may not like it ( i looove the draft and look forward to the Hockey news and the event that is the draft) but i think the PA beleives in pressure points and the crosby thing was probably one of them.
KABOOM, bye bye pressure point!!

I may not like Bettman but he has outplayed Goodenow as far as the chess match of collective bargaining goes.

I was surprise but i think it was a briallant move by the league to take away the pressure point from the players. The other example of the NHL outwitting the PA is the lack of the dropdead date, it must have drove Goodnow and the players nutting waiting and waiting.

Bettman`s strategy is about as brilliant as Stephen Harper`s election strategy was last year. As far as the lack of a drop-dead date goes, the players had already lost most of their pay for that year and didn`t expect that there would be a deal, so it probably didn`t drive them "nutting". The only people who were driven crazy by the lack of a drop-dead date were the people whose jobs depend on the NHL (referees, office staff, arena employees etc.) The fact that Bettman and the owners left them twisting in limbo for so long shows only that they have no class.

 

[futurcorerock]

The only thing about this is... the NHL eliminated this as an incentive to get back quickly, but does anyone realize that the NHL draft, unlike the entire season, is easily reschedulable? Hell, they might not even need a venue, just those same hotel conference rooms they've been using to cancel stuff

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

Are you hearing any FAT LADY singing ?? .. because that is the saying of a sign when this is over ..

Until we have an ending we do not know how individual events effected the outcome ..

Cancelling the Live draft may have been in the NHLPA plan all along be stalling on signing a NEW CBA .. The NHL will have a big mess with players rights previous and present if June comes and goes with not draft ..

While NO CBA exists .. Restricted , Drafted , Qualifying offers .. everything in the old CBA timeline will come and go and open a BIG CAN of worms .. Players and Agents may take these issues to court and fight for UFA .. Lots of articles on that already published ..

So cancelling the live draft does have an effect but more so on the city of Ottawa and Revenue then anything else IMO .. The NHLPA gains nothing from the Draft really $$ wise or other ..and if the whole draft class is ruled UFA's then the bidding War and frenzy to get these players signed once a new CBA is finalized may be far better for the NHLPA in contracts and the NHL in FAN excitement ..

In fact the cancelling of the Draft may have Replacement player implications .. The NHL may try to use these young players and once drafted an members of the NHLPA they are no longer to use them in all scenarios ..

The draft being cancelled and a diluted unrestricted talent pool may be the NHL's goal as well. Supply and demand favoured the players when it came to unrestricted free agency and served as a salary inflator. Restricted free agency and having to qualify players at 115% was also a deflator. By having the players become UFA instead of RFA they have eliminated a salary inflator.

 

[Mat]

i love how they cite that cancelling the ottawa draft [event] will cost the city of ottawa 15m in revenus

WTF

HOW!???!?!

Sure, by their numbers thats 3000 rooms
and assuming that for some reason each family spends 500-1000 on this little trip to see the draft
thats still only 1.5-3m

wheres the other 13.5m?


the owners might wanna open their books on this one another classic example of how the NHL lies about revenues

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

We lost an entire season because of 4 million dollars. I don't see how you could possibly think Bettman is winning.

Once this is all settled Bettman will be lucky to have a job in the NHL.

We didn't lose an entire season of 4 million dollars. An NHL season was lost because the NHL teams are losing money by the millions over the 9 year term of the most recently expired collective agreement.

Once this is settled Gary Bettman will be able to write his own ticket. Bettman has carried the mandate given to him by his bosses (the NHL board of Governors). With the exception of the Toronto Maple Leafs, I think his bosses are quite happy with his performance in carrying out their mandate. When he has given them a salary cap at the end of this (if the league does survive), then he will have done what they asked of him. Bob Goodenow on the other hand........

 

[mr gib]

Bettman`s strategy is about as brilliant as Stephen Harper`s election strategy was last year. As far as the lack of a drop-dead date goes, the players had already lost most of their pay for that year and didn`t expect that there would be a deal, so it probably didn`t drive them "nutting". The only people who were driven crazy by the lack of a drop-dead date were the people whose jobs depend on the NHL (referees, office staff, arena employees etc.) The fact that Bettman and the owners left them twisting in limbo for so long shows only that they have no class.

agreed - gary and the chimps were ready to not play this year - bob had the player's ready - $$$ -
it's very unfortunate that the little folk's got wacked in the crossfire - i am for the player's but both side's have to take it for screwing the fan's and employee's - it still fall's on buttman's head - that guy's gotta go -

 

[Mat]

Restricted free agency and having to qualify players at 115% was also a deflator. By having the players become UFA instead of RFA they have eliminated a salary inflator.

why would in the new CBA, the owners draw up a Q.O. where it would still be 115%
i thought their last offer let em be 75% for a q.o.

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

why would in the new CBA, the owners draw up a Q.O. where it would still be 115%
i thought their last offer let em be 75% for a q.o.

It woudn't but by making them UFAs, they don't even have to guarnatee them 75% of their bloated salaries or whatever % it works out to be in the end. There are no guarantees with UFA. The good players would still get reasonable deals (what they deserve) and the overpaid would be cut down to size.

 

[Mat]

agreed - gary and the chimps were ready to not play this year - bob had the player's ready - $$$ -
it's very unfortunate that the little folk's got wacked in the crossfire - i am for the player's but both side's have to take it for screwing the fan's and employee's - it still fall's on buttman's head - that guy's gotta go -

bettman will be gone once the new CBA is in place
he's been nothing but bad news for the NHL and its owners (re: writing up the last cba which allowed for such a staggaring increase in salaries, and now cancelling and entire season.)

[i have no doubt that most of the owners wanted to cancel the season so as to crush the union so they can make EVEN MORE money than they normally would. they're all ******** in my eyes. always have been.]

 

[Mat]

It woudn't but by making them UFAs, they don't even have to guarnatee them 75% of their bloated salaries or whatever % it works out to be in the end. There are no guarantees with UFA. The good players would still get reasonable deals (what they deserve) and the overpaid would be cut down to size.

fair enough. thanks for the clarification; good call on this one.

with the 24% rollback and 25%less QO, you'd think a 40%ish paycut would be good enough, eh?

 

[mr gib]

bettman will be gone once the new CBA is in place
he's been nothing but bad news for the NHL and its owners (re: writing up the last cba which allowed for such a staggaring increase in salaries, and now cancelling and entire season.)

[i have no doubt that most of the owners wanted to cancel the season so as to crush the union so they can make EVEN MORE money than they normally would. they're all ******** in my eyes. always have been.]

wow a kindred spirit - bettman is supposed to be the higher power - the ultimate custodian of the game - man - king's and nuck's were on last night - gretzky's 802 goal - it's a different game now -
please bring it back - roll it back 12 year's -

 

[Icey]

When he has given them a salary cap at the end of this (if the league does survive), then he will have done what they asked of him. Bob Goodenow on the other hand........

You said it perfectly.... if the league survives. That is the problem. He's missed the forest for the trees. But Bettman won't really be able to be judged for 5 or 6 years, because it won't be the CBA he gets, but rather how he sparks this league and makes it grow. How does he relaunch this league and bring the fans back while growing the sport. Can he make hockey a legitimate sport again because right now its not. And if he doesn't do that, no matter what CBA he may get, he fails.

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

Icey, You hit a homerun.

Mat, anything we say right now is pure speculation. We can only guess as to what their motives are and try to apply theory based on what we believe the goals of each organization could possibly be when they make moves. Who in the blue heck knows what the thought process of eith er Bettman or Goodenow is. Sometimes it is hard to tell if they are actually following a plan or if they are just reacting to what the other does and just trying to up the ante.

 

[Mat]

But Bettman won't really be able to be judged for 5 or 6 years, because it won't be the CBA he gets, but rather how he sparks this league and makes it grow.

We can judge him by his last 12 year tenure, and in that time, has he made it grow? No. What he has done though is literally kill hockey to the point that it is on an indefinite hiatus, and even if it were back the on ice product isn't as good as it could be either.

Most us us aren't askin for 70's era hockey again either, just pre-bettman hockey

 

[Mat]

Icey, You hit a homerun.

Mat, anything we say right now is pure speculation. We can only guess as to what their motives are and try to apply theory based on what we believe the goals of each organization could possibly be when they make moves. Who in the blue heck knows what the thought process of eith er Bettman or Goodenow is. Sometimes it is hard to tell if they are actually following a plan or if they are just reacting to what the other does and just trying to up the ante.

i think its clearer than most give credit.

 

[futurcorerock]

The only reason this is a big deal is because Crosby is in the draft. If this happened to Rick Nash, would as many people care?