Yeah. I'm sure the system is instructing wingers to not cover anyone. Which is what happened on this play.
It's terrible defensive awareness/laziness. Nothing more.
Blackhawks defensive system
- Thread starter Brightwing
- Start date
Yeah. I'm sure the system is instructing wingers to not cover anyone. Which is what happened on this play.
It's terrible defensive awareness/laziness. Nothing more.
I'd believe that if we didn't see it over and over again over multiple seasons with dozens of different players. The winger is instructed to stay near his point man. The same thing happened on the Canes goal where Cat peals off immediately and Kane shades his point man instead of covering the high slot.
You had both D and the center covering 2 guys along the wall. The guy with the puck didn't sneak in from anywhere. Hardman actually starts in a good position then goes out to his point to cover his man, the weakside winger never gets close to being in the right position. This play is actually way worse in real time then it was in the still shot.
TLEH
Pronounced T-Lay
Lol. The Canes goal happened because Strome f***ing sucks, and Kane was way too late in recognizing the breakdown. A breakdown that happened because of Strome's suck. DeBrincat peeled off because he figured Strome would do what he was supposed to, stay with his man, and pick up the puck. He was transitioning to offense.
In hockey, if one guy loses his man, it creates an odd-man situation for the other four guys on the ice... And then you see things like this happen, because someone inevitably has to choose which guy to cover. The same thing happened here. One of the Hawk defenders got beat, so the Hawks had three guys covering two. If you have three guys covering two, guess what????? You now have two defenders trying to cover three players.... An open player is inevitable.....
As an offensive player, I will almost ALWAYS attack the weakest defender on the ice. Because when I beat him, help will come over, and we now have an odd man situation elsewhere in the zone... If I'm doing this in beer league, you can bet your ass guys are doing this at the NHL level.
As the young players improve defensively, they will get beat less 1 on 1, and you will see less odd-man situations developing in the defensive zone as a result. This isn't rocket science, and I'm so tired of seeing people overanalyze it, and blame "systems". Bad defensive players will suck at defending in ANY man-to-man system.
P.S. Someone certainly "snuck in" as Dallas has four guys below the circles. One of the wingers completely lost their check.
Right, it creates an odd man situation which is why teams play systems where one breakdown doesn't cause everything to break down. Literally no one got beat ono this chance for the Stars. The puck comes around the net, the Stars made a pass from slightly above the corner down below the goaline and with another pass there's a guy standing wide open with no one around him.
Please tell me who the f*** this guy is covering? NOBODY. He lost his check. If he doesn't lose his check, that pass doesn't happen, and the Hawks are fine.
His man has the f***ing puck on his stick in the slot. You know how you know it's his man? Because Dallas has four guys below the circles. Which means...a winger should be there with one of those four guys.
Stillman is also covering....nobody. Two players on this shift completely shit the bed. This has nothing to do with systems.
Last edited:
He's covering the strongside point man who is just out of frame. The guy with the puck (Tanner Kero, Forward) is on the dot when the pass is made right to him. The open guy who is next to the weakside winger never touches the puck. So no, Hardman's guy isn't the guy that shoots the puck. Perhaps in a system that doesn't have both wingers above the circles when the puck is below the goal line, it would be his man.
Stillman actually chased the puck up the wall, then when it got cycle back down low he goes back down low.
Lol. Wrong. The strong side point man in this situation is Tanner Kero. The guy shooting the puck. Because the initial strong side point man...is Hanley. The defenseman, who is down low on the wall. #44. The guy Entwistle is covering. He's covering....nobody. The last Dallas player isn't even in the zone, and certainly not an offensive threat. Hardman lost his check. Period.
And even before this develops, Stillman leaves the front of the net for some reason.
1:46, here's the play
Its 3 on 3 downlow. Hardman looks twice at something over his right shoulder, if there isn't a guy there then I don't know what he keeps looking at. Mitchell's guy is 64, he's standing within a stick length from him at the start of the play. 64 is either Entwistle or Mitchell's guy. I would agree with you in a system that doesn't have the wingers playing so high in the zone, the strong side winger should be closer to Kero, so should the weakside winger, but that isn't what they are asked to do which is why the front of the Hawks net is open so damn often. It has been open, it continues to be open, and it will be open in the future.
If the Hawks system truly doesn't have guys in these positions they routinely find themselves in, then its the dipshit behind the bench's job to teach it properly. Either way both things fall on the same guy.
I also find this statement to be hilarious.
But I thought they play man-to-man? If they play man-to-man, then why are two wingers up above the circles, when there are FOUR Dallas players below the circles? Oh, because someone f***ed up, and lost their check.
But I thought they play man-to-man? If they play man-to-man, then why are two wingers up above the circles, when there are FOUR Dallas players below the circles? Oh, because someone f***ed up, and lost their check.
The 4th guy gets there I assume because he came on late and the weakside winger didn't react quick enough. Regardless the late arriving man doesn't effect the play at all.
No. The guy that affects the play is Kero. Kero is Hardman's man... Because Hanley...who would have been his man, pinched in, and Entwistle went to him. The breakdown happens because the Stars defenseman pinched, and the strong side winger just stood there at the point. Again, he's not covering anyone. And again, in a man-to-man system, he moves to Kero the moment the defenseman pinches, and Entwistle moves over.
Hardman is never within 30 feet of Hanley at any point in the play. When the play starts Entwistle is about 10 feet from Hanley and picks him up immediately. Its Enwistle, Stillman, Mitchell on Kero, Hanley, and Pysyk.
Jeremy's job is to get the most out of the players he has, not play a specific system.
If he's trying to play a system and the players aren't executing, he needs to do one of two things:
1. Change the system so the players are in a system they can execute
2. Coach the players up so they are able to execute the system he wants to play
Maybe he's trying to do the second one, but then his work as a coach is not translating to success on the ice. We can bash the players (rightly in many cases) all we want, but what Jeremy is doing is not working. Pointing to other teams that can run it successfully is not an evidence of Jeremy doing a good job. It's evidence he is either too rigid or not a good enough coach.
I don't know which it is, but he's clearly not been able to consistently generate an even respectable defensive system in his three years with the club.
If he's trying to play a system and the players aren't executing, he needs to do one of two things:
1. Change the system so the players are in a system they can execute
2. Coach the players up so they are able to execute the system he wants to play
Maybe he's trying to do the second one, but then his work as a coach is not translating to success on the ice. We can bash the players (rightly in many cases) all we want, but what Jeremy is doing is not working. Pointing to other teams that can run it successfully is not an evidence of Jeremy doing a good job. It's evidence he is either too rigid or not a good enough coach.
I don't know which it is, but he's clearly not been able to consistently generate an even respectable defensive system in his three years with the club.
HockeySauce
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2011
- 16,349
- 759
Chicago has been bad defensively for 3 years, with varying levels of experience amongst their group in general/defense but it's not the system, it's the young players making mistakes that are leading to the same breakdowns we've seen year-over-year since Colliton took over.
It all makes sense.
It all makes sense.
He's never within 30 feet of anyone. Maybe now you're starting to see the problem?
This is where the entire play breaks down. Hanley cycles the puck down low. Stillman fails(again) to get his stick on the puck to break up the pass into the corner. Mitchell leaves the front of the net to attack the guy in the corner. Hardman is standing there, clear as day, looking at a wide open Kero... He also has to realize that his man(Hanley, the defenseman who pinched) is in the corner... He should have already been moving to Kero. But, he has poor defensive awareness, and did not see this develop. If anything, Hardman is stuck in zone defense here. Defending his "area" up high, instead of picking up Kero, who has gotten himself open.
This is not a problem with the system. This is a young player who lacks the defensive awareness to properly defend at the NHL level. It's also Stillman failing twice to get his stick on the puck and gain possession.
I guess Q's system sucked too, since we saw the same breakdowns the season before Colliton took over.
HockeySauce
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2011
- 16,349
- 759
Any system can have breakdowns Pezzy. The issue with Colliton's is the frequency with which they happen and the inability over *years* now to limit them. This year was obviously the worst of his three and part of that has to do with young players. Luckily, we know the young players aren't close to being the main issue bc CHI was terrible last year too.
In Q's last full year, CHI was 16th in xGF%, 4th in CF% and 7th in SCF%. Chicago has finished no higher than 5th last in xGF% under Colliton and this year finished dead last.
xGF% is not defense. CF% is not defense. SCF% is not defense. Stop using statistics that are calculated using offense, to represent defense. Their defense bled high danger chances against and gave up a shitload of goals. Anyone who watched Q's last season here(and actually comprehends what they are watching) knows they were a trainwreck defensively.
Brightwing
Registered User
- Oct 1, 2019
- 2,401
- 3,657
They were 23rd in actual GF% in Q's last year and 27th this year. At all strengths instead of 5v5 the Hawks had a 46.36 GF% (21st) this year and Q's 2017-18 Hawks had a 47.3% (20th). That's actually pretty similar. We overperformed our xGF% this year and Q's last team underperformed it. If you had Toews on the team all season I guarantee our GF% would have been the same or higher as Q's last team. And that's not a shot at Q. The 2017-18 Hawks were not a good team and it was time to move towards a rebuild.
Kaners Bald Spot
Registered User
Percentages aren't the actual metric that you want to use for team defense, as those take offense into account.
Straight up Corsi/Fenwick against, Straight up xGF allowed, Straight up Scoring chances and high danger chances allowed are a better way to measure.
In 2017-18, Q's last full season with the Hawks, they were 17th in Corsi allowed, 18th in Fenwick allowed, 25th in xG allowed, 23rd in scoring chances allowed, and 27th in HD scoring chances allowed.
I'm pretty sure the Hawks are bottom 3 in all categories this year:
Edit: Yep. And they're dead last in SC, HDSC and xG allowed
Right and there's no way he's staying that high unless thats what he's being taught. Again if this was a singular play, I could accept the player messed up. Problem is we see it game after game, year after year, new player after new player. Every shift someone gets beat, with the Hawks it seems to end up with wide open shots from bad areas too often. If the system is to play a strong side overload there, they certainly don't do it. There's multiple coverages in that game that I'd be pissed if I saw that in a pee wee game, there's no way a guy in the NHL doesn't understand where to pick up players unless they've been told to defend that way.
What nonsense. Do you not watch a lot of hockey, or what? By your last statement, it's very clear that you don't play. You can understand that a guy needs to be picked up, and still not do it. It's called making a mistake. Defending against active defensemen is actually quite difficult, and causes a lot of confusion.
Mistakes are made CONSTANTLY at the NHL level, that leave guys wide open. On. Every. Single. Team. Turns out, bad teams make those mistakes more often. Turns out, young players make those mistakes more than experienced players. And bad teams tend to have more young, inexperienced players.
I watched the Selke winner Toews lose man after man in Q's last season here.... So even the very best defensive players in the league f*** up and leave their man wide open. The Hawks were already well on their way to being a terrible defensive team in 2017. Nobody should be surprised that they're still a terrible defensive team in 2021 with the roster and youth they have.
I also find it ironic that someone who, when Q was coaching, said:
"It's not the system, it's the players".
But now, with a much younger, weaker roster, it's the system.
But you also claimed that "nobody in the NHL runs a man-to-man system" and that's been proven wrong dozens of times. So it's not like you're oozing credibility here.
"It's not the system, it's the players".
But now, with a much younger, weaker roster, it's the system.
But you also claimed that "nobody in the NHL runs a man-to-man system" and that's been proven wrong dozens of times. So it's not like you're oozing credibility here.
Nope, never watch hockey. Its only you who watch hockey even though you said recently you haven't been watching the games.
