Biggest snub from NHL Top 10 list (2018)

[bobholly39]

I still think it's stupid to have Matthews here

Guy is great and hopefully poised to have a fantastic season. I don't think even the worst of the Leaf haters will deny the possibility that Matthews will belong to such a list very soon - but the point is he doesn't yet. He missed too much time last year (with again poor playoffs). He's not earned top 10 yet.

Hopefully at end of this year he does.

 

[Echo Roku]

A ton better offensive season than who?? No one in the league had a ton better offensive season than Giroux... he scored 102 points, 2nd in the league, 6 away from McDavid. What are you talking about?

All facts and tangible stats say Giroux is and has always been better offensively.

Your opinion and prediction says mckinnon will start being better offensively starting this year.

Again, giroux faces tougher competition and contributes more to his own end and still outscores Nate every year, and likely will this year too.

[mod]

Nah, MacKinnon was better offensively last year. [mod]

He has more impact on a given game offensively on average. That's just includes points, let alone his ability to take over a game. It is what it is.

 

[DRW204]

gotta be a body of work no? Matthews has been a 40g player and a ppg+ player in his two seasons.
Mackinnon had a bunch of 20g/50-60pts ish seasons before 1 massive year

you dismiss rookie seasons pretty easily but how about the other three 53pts and under?

full season pace

AM34: 43g/76pts
NM : 25g/66pts

i know who im taking

Like I said, it depends how you frame the question if it was top 10 players last year (meaning we isolate last season) what Mackinnon did pre 2017 is irrelevant. He finished last year with 97 pts in 74 gp and 2nd in Hart voting. If you want to say a top player over the course of their career, it's a different discussion. But just isolating 2017-2018 Mack was definitely a top 10 player. Matthews also hasn't been a ppg in two seasons, he was one last year. If you want to bring in 2 seasons worth Marchand, Backstrom, Scheifele, Giroux, Burns, Panarin, Seguin, Wheeler deserve some consideration

 

[Michoulicious]

I would have put MacKinnon and Kane there in front of Matthews and Hall, but that's it.

 

[1865]

Nah, MacKinnon was better offensively last year. [mod]

He has more impact on a given game offensively on average. That's just includes points, let alone his ability to take over a game. It is what it is.

All you do is say he did better. You’re not great at debating the point.

 

[Echo Roku]

All you do is say he did better. You’re not great at debating the point.

I'm not really debating when the people I'm talking to don't care to consider other opinions either way, already.

 

[1865]

I'm not really debating when the people I'm talking to don't care to consider other opinions either way, already.

Echo. The same noise echoing back and forth with less substance every time.

I'm out.

 

[StoneHands]

Nah, MacKinnon was better offensively last year.

He has more impact on a given game offensively on average. That's just includes points, let alone his ability to take over a game. It is what it is.

The bolded is statistically inaccurate. Giroux was involved in a higher percentage of points compared to MacKinnon. It's extremely close but you're technically wrong.

 

[Echo Roku]

The bolded is statistically inaccurate. Giroux was involved in a higher percentage of points compared to MacKinnon. It's extremely close but you're technically wrong.

Nope. Not in the slightest. You are objectively, in every way, wrong. Average is a word. And it means a ton, since it means any given game, he has the better chance of making the bigger impact. And that's JUST points.

 

[StoneHands]

Nope. Not in the slightest. You are objectively, in every way, wrong. Average is a word. And it means a ton, since it means any given game, he has the better chance of making the bigger impact. And that's JUST points.

Yes, on average, MacKinnon contributed to a lower percentage of his team's goals. Please explain how I'm wrong. I'm only using last season's numbers which actually is an advantage to MacKinnon since he scored 30+ points more than his previous career high.

 

[Echo Roku]

Yes, on average, MacKinnon contributed to a lower percentage of his team's goals. Please explain how I'm wrong. I'm only using last season's numbers which actually is an advantage to MacKinnon since he scored 30+ points more than his previous career high.

Yes, on average MacKinnon contributed to more goals per game than Giroux did. This is fact.

lol, what are you trying to do?

 

[StoneHands]

Yes, on average MacKinnon contributed to more goals per game than Giroux did. This is fact.

lol, what are you trying to do?

MacKinnon had 97 points in 74 games. In those 74 games his team scored 240 goals. He contributed to 40.4% of his team's goals.

Giroux had 102 points in 82 games. In those games his team scored 251 goals. He contributed to 40.6% of his team's goals.

Again, please explain how I'm wrong. Maybe I am but simply saying I'm wrong without providing any data isn't very constructive.

 

[Echo Roku]

MacKinnon had 97 points in 74 games. In those 74 games his team scored 240 goals. He contributed to 40.4% of his team's goals.

Giroux had 102 points in 82 games. In those games his team scored 251 goals. He contributed to 40.6% of his team's goals.

Again, please explain how I'm wrong. Maybe I am but simply saying I'm wrong without providing any data isn't very constructive.

So basically you’re playing semantics

Neat.

MacKinnon contributed to more goals per game than Giroux. Fact.

 

[StoneHands]

So basically you’re playing semantics

Neat.

MacKinnon contributed to more goals per game than Giroux. Fact.

Not semantics at all. You said "He has more impact on a given game offensively on average". The key word is "Impact". I wouldn't have disagreed had you said "MacKinnon scores more points per game on average" but when you bring up the impact that those points have on each game you have to factor in how many goals each team scored. I don't think anyone would argue against the fact that Matthews scoring 2 goals in the Leafs 3-2 win over Montreal had more of an impact than Kuznetsov scoring 2 goals in Washington's 7-0 win over Boston. Except you I guess.

 

[Echo Roku]

Not semantics at all. You said "He has more impact on a given game offensively on average". The key word is "Impact". I wouldn't have disagreed had you said "MacKinnon scores more points per game on average" but when you bring up the impact that those points have on each game you have to factor in how many goals each team scored. I don't think anyone would argue against the fact that Matthews scoring 2 goals in the Leafs 3-2 win over Montreal had more of an impact than Kuznetsov scoring 2 goals in Washington's 7-0 win over Boston. Except you I guess.

Not at all. That was, one, "just for points" (ignoring how he controls the flow of the game and the amount of GWGs he had).

And even then, yes, a goal is just as impactful as another. A 4-1 lead changes the game a bunch from a 3-1 lead, just like a 3-1 lead changes from a 2-1 lead. Unless you want to go and analyze each point for how close the games were for each... (I know you don't, and are just trying to use a flawed stat that doesn't show as much insight as you claim). Interesting, GWG is one of the few actual statistics to track impact on an individual game.

MacKinnon is the better offensive player.

 

[Sasso09]

Nah, MacKinnon was better offensively last year. [mod]

He has more impact on a given game offensively on average. That's just includes points, let alone his ability to take over a game. It is what it is.

You have nothing tangible... you keep repeating "MacKinnon is better" then have zero tangible proof. Then go on to cite that he "He has more impact on a given game offensively on average. That's just includes points," that's a flat out lie, Giroux contributed to a larger percent of his team's goals than any player in the league not named McDavid.

 

[Sasso09]

I'm not really debating when the people I'm talking to don't care to consider other opinions either way, already.

"Other options" is you just repeating "because I said so"

Provide tangible evidence and maybe someone will take you seriously.

 

[Sol]

Should Matthews or Hall be the one off the list? That's another question.

Easily Matthews.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Kopitar not being on any top 10 list after last season is just ridiculous. The guy has never gotten the respect he deserves. While on the other hand Matthews gets on for what he “could have done”, basically giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I would have even have Kopitar over Doughty or Hedman.

 

[Sasso09]

Kopitar not being on any top 10 list after last season is just ridiculous. The guy has never gotten the respect he deserves. While on the other hand Matthews gets on for what he “could have done”, basically giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I would have even have Kopitar over Doughty or Hedman.

Agree. Kopitar is clearly top 10

 

[GreatGonzo]

Agree. Kopitar is clearly top 10

It’s truly bizarre the way they make these list. I mean.... EK, Matthews, and Hedman definitely were not top 10 talents last season. Doughty and Ovi are even arguable, and while Crosby had an “off year”, he gets his grace period....yet Kopitar and MacKinnon are snubbed even though they were clearly top 10 players.

The criteria is so inconsistent, it’s honestly amazing how so many actually take these lists seriously.

 

[Sasso09]

It’s truly bizarre the way they make these list. I mean.... EK, Matthews, and Hedman definitely were not top 10 talents last season. Doughty and Ovi are even arguable, and while Crosby had an “off year”, he gets his grace period....yet Kopitar and MacKinnon are snubbed even though they were clearly top 10 players.

The criteria is so inconsistent, it’s honestly amazing how so many actually take these lists seriously.

I disagree on Hedman, I think he was the best defenseman in the NHL, better than Doughty.

Top 10 from last season IMO

McDavid
Giroux
Crosby
Kucherov
Hedman
Kopitar
Malkin
Karlsson
Doughty
MacKinnon

My top 10 list in general would be

McDavid
Crosby
Giroux
Malkin
Kucherov
Kopitar
Karlsson
Hedman
Doughty
Kane

 

[GreatGonzo]

I disagree on Hedman, I think he was the best defenseman in the NHL, better than Doughty.

Top 10 from last season IMO

McDavid
Giroux
Crosby
Kucherov
Hedman
Kopitar
Malkin
Karlsson
Doughty
MacKinnon

My top 10 list in general would be

McDavid
Crosby
Giroux
Malkin
Kucherov
Kopitar
Karlsson
Hedman
Doughty
Kane

With Hedman, I was saying he arguably isn’t a top 10 player this past year.

No MacKinnon? Why?

 

[Puckstuff]

If we are making a list, it's probably best to define how the list is categorizing talent.

Each of us have our own bias' to either our favourite players, a position preference or recency bias.

An example of recency bias would be favouring Kopitar and his 90 point season (which was stellar) forgetting the year prior he had 52 points. I'm basically left to guess how good he is.

Bergeron was PPG and won the selke; Giroux scored 100 points, and Mackinnon put up nearly a 100 points. Are we using 1 year as the standard?

For me; I think 2 full seasons is fair.

I also think we need to use our judgement to try estimate future indications of success. Maybe it's likely Matthews (20) will improve while Bergeron (33) may possibly worsen or go back to career norms (60 points?)

Two seasons is enough for me to say it's not a 1 off.

The real question we have to ask; where does Ovechkin and Crosby fit? I think Sidney is deserving; however he hasn't scored at least 90 points since 2013... There is no questioning he is still a dominant elite # 1 C; but Malkin has passed him imo.

Here is my list; using 2 years as the frame work


1. McDavid - 100 + point center.
2. Malkin - 100 point center.
3. Crosby - 95 point center?
4. Doughty -Best d-man in the league imo.
5. Kucherov - 90-100 point winger.
6. Kopitar - 75-80 point C? Elite D.
7. Hedman - Better overall then EK imo.
8. Mackinnon - 90-100 point C?
9. Giroux - 90-100 point winger?
10. Matthews - 80-85 point C? Elite D.


Bergeron - 65 point C.
Barkov - 80 point C.
Kane - 80-90 point winger.
Ovechkin - 80 point winger.
Karlsson - 70 point D.


I'm pretty content with my choices my 1-5. 6-10 can be quite interchangeable. I have bias against Karlsson because I don't think he's as good defensively as some people think. I'm also using my judgement that the data and performances I've seen from Matthews suggests he's better then Kane, Ovie (wingers.)

 

[kegluu]

Matthews now has the most ES goals since he entered the league.
1 more than McDavid, in 19 less games.

0.5241 per game. moves him ahead of stamkos in goals/gm into 2nd among active players behind ONLY ovechkin.
200 ft game, great on draws, clutch player

but yeah he isn't top 10 because he is a leaf!

No, he is not TOP 10 player right now because he was around 20th in PPG last year. So on this list he jumped around 15 forwards better in actual production including ones having 20-30% better PPG