GDT: Biggest game of the season! Devils @ Canes

[Joe McGrath]

Skinner-Ryan-Williams is a no good, terrible, awful idea. I hope I’m wrong.

Just in case anyone thinks I’m second guessing the coach after the fact.

5 on 5 last night they generated 5 total shots, 4 by Williams in 13 minutes. Not the 8 + ago Tarheel said above. His numbers include Skinner’s 6 on 5 goal with the Staal line and their 1 PP shot and 1 OT Shot. Awful. f***ing awful.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Even if Wallmark struggles, it's better than putting Ryan out there as if he's not had struggles the past 20 games. And there is a possibility he actually produces. Sadly, we'll probably re-sign Ryan again, he'll have a stretch where he produces, and be trash the rest of the time.

 

[Joe McGrath]

This doesn't change the fact that if you give Wallmark's line a shift that would otherwise go to Ryan's line, you just swapped out Skinner for Nordstrom (points = 4 in 59 games) and Williams for PDG (points = 3 in 27 games).

The other option is to move Wallmark to the Skinner line and demote Ryan to cleanup duty. I'd be for that, but not mid-game as a result of Wallmark having like 3 successful shifts against bad opponents.

Then what was the point in calling up and playing Wallmark? If he’s viewed by the coach the way it seems they are essentially saying the best course of action is to play Rask and Ryan, who are terrible, MORE. More volume and more important situations for Rask and Ryan. That’s ridiculous on a level I can’t even comprehend.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You still have a game plan that involves other players fulfilling specific roles, and that game plan goes into the dustbin if you start giving your AHL callup line more minutes on a whim.

The only other option at Peters' disposal is to swap Wallmark and Ryan. Now, I'd be all for that. Don't get me wrong. I'd also expect to see Wallmark struggle mightily and everyone here have their pitchforks out after a few games.

Again, if a coach, who preaches accountability and going with hot hand, I can't see any logical reason why Derek Ryan received 20:00 of playing time and Wallmark received 4:28. I don't buy that the coach couldn't have found a couple more minutes of time for him when (a) the team scored 1 fluky goal in 58 minutes, (b) Derek Ryan was not only terrible, but statistically the worst forward on the ice and (c) was the direct cause of the 2nd goal.

Like I said, it likely wouldn't have made a difference and maybe Wallmark would have struggled as well. Peter's stubbornness with Ryan is inexplicable. Ryan may "Play the game the right way", but he plays it terribly, right way or not. And why even put Wallmark in the line-up, over the guys scratched or others they could have called up if that's his role?

Anyhow, we won't see eye to eye on this and that's fine. It likely wouldn't have made an iota of difference in the game and it's basically rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Just seems to be an odd coaching decision to play the worst forward so many minutes when it's not working.

I hope that I have to eat crow on this like I did when I was bagging on Ryan last year (the whole unsustainable thing), where he started scoring again.

 

[GoldiFox]

Comprehensive checklist for whether or not Ryan is playing well:

1) Is Skinner currently carrying him?

If yes, Ryan is playing well. If no, Ryan is struggling.

 

[AD Skinner]

Ryan has been mostly a pleasant surprise for me as far as not actively sucking for the first part of the season. But if anyone out there wants him for anything we should trade him. He will never produce more than mediocre numbers and is being trusted way too much because Peters is in love with him. "It's not my fault you're like in love with me or something!" But really it's not Ryan's fault he's being put out there in crucial situations he's not good enough to handle-- I'd imagine his numbers would actually increase a tad in a bottom 6 winger/pp specialist type role on a good team, instead of the jack of all trades/bounce around the lineup role he's had here. He really fascinates me in a lot of ways as we've all hashed over a million times- he's only a few months younger than me so it's really neat to see someone make the jump to the bigs at this age, and I do think he's a smart player. I just don't think he's fast or strong enough to succeed at the moves he tries to make a lot of the time, and I don't think he has much of a shelf life. If Peters really wants to do right by him he'll try to get him to the playoffs whether its as a Hurricane or somewhere else- the latter looking more and more like the only possibility.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Then what was the point in calling up and playing Wallmark? If he’s viewed by the coach the way it seems they are essentially saying the best course of action is to play Rask and Ryan, who are terrible, MORE. More volume and more important situations for Rask and Ryan. That’s ridiculous on a level I can’t even comprehend.

These are natural consequences in the immediate aftermath of waiving both of our 4Cs and replacing them with a scoring line AHL’er.

If Wallmark is still playing solid hockey and still playing 5 minutes a game a week from now, that will raise a flag for me. But right now, he has had 1 game post callup, in which he was inserted into the open spot in the lineup and given ice time according to his strengths. This was not the time to give extra ES time to Nordstrom (who did continue to kill penalties) or to PDG (who is the most useless player in the lineup including Ryan), nor the time to throw Wallmark in the deep end against the Hall or Zajac lines. Peters kept the lines stable (which is what he’s been criticized for NOT doing in the past) and protected a rookie from getting abused in his return game. Those are reasonable moves, especially in a situation where in-game lineup experiments wouldn’t be particularly appropriate.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The more things change, the more they stay the same? This season (to date) vs. last season on some stats:

	This	Last
Record (Point %)	0.53	0.53
GF/GP	2.65	2.59
Rank	26th	20th
GA/GP	2.95	2.8
Rank	14th	18th
SF/GP	34.4	30.4
Rank	4th	14th
SA/GP	28.8	28.3
Rank	1st	5th
Save%	0.898	0.901
Rank	30th	26th
PP%	19.0%	17.7%
Rank	20th	21st
PK%	79.7%	84.2%
Rank	18th	6th
FOW%	53.6%	53.1%
Rank	1st	4th

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Deck chairs. Titanic.

This is pretty much it. With Wallmark, Rask and Ryan we have 3 centers who Peters feels the need to shelter.

Ryan sucks, and him and skinner and williams are a train wreck defensively, they constantly get pinned in their own zone because of a lack of speed, board work and hockey sense. I can see what pastor b is doing there, put all the defensive problems on one line and pray they don't eff up too bad.
but if in terms of centers its either rask or ryan in ot? ryan 100%, speed is much more important than board work in ot,

pray that necas, 19 year okd czech phenom, is a 50 point even defensive player bext year. or the canes get duchene or ror. or Wallmark earns pastor b's trust and doesn't disappoint.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Again, if a coach, who preaches accountability and going with hot hand, I can't see any logical reason why Derek Ryan received 20:00 of playing time and Wallmark received 4:28. I don't buy that the coach couldn't have found a couple more minutes of time for him when (a) the team scored 1 fluky goal in 58 minutes, (b) Derek Ryan was not only terrible, but statistically the worst forward on the ice and (c) was the direct cause of the 2nd goal.

Like I said, it likely wouldn't have made a difference and maybe Wallmark would have struggled as well. Peter's stubbornness with Ryan is inexplicable. Ryan may "Play the game the right way", but he plays it terribly, right way or not. And why even put Wallmark in the line-up, over the guys scratched or others they could have called up if that's his role?

Anyhow, we won't see eye to eye on this and that's fine. It likely wouldn't have made an iota of difference in the game and it's basically rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Just seems to be an odd coaching decision to play the worst forward so many minutes when it's not working.

I hope that I have to eat crow on this like I did when I was bagging on Ryan last year (the whole unsustainable thing), where he started scoring again.

Well, this goes to the core of a whole other issue in our lineup.

Ryan didn't skate 20:00 because Peters is in love with Ryan's performance. Ryan skated 20:00 because Skinner skated 20:03. Ryan doesn't play without Skinner, and Skinner doesn't play without Ryan. Literally the only time #53 comes on the ice without #7 is during goalie-pulled situations.

Why is Ryan hard-matched with Skinner? Because apparently, the only type of linemate who works well with young master Jeffrey is a blatant point-leech whose sole purpose is to feed passes to #53. Anyone with a broader skill set -- grinding in the corners, finishing scoring plays, playing actual defense -- doesn't suit Skinner's style. And Skinner is one of about three above-average forwards in our entire lineup, so we give him what he needs, a personal assistant.

That leaves the rest of the lineup inflexible. We know Skinner is going to get his minutes because he's almost the only guy who can reliably score, we know Aho(Rask) is going to get his minutes because he's the other guy who can reliably score, and we know Jordan Staal will take the other big chunk of minutes because he's locked in against the other team's star line. That leaves scraps for the 4th line, which in Kruger's case was fine because he was in a defensive role. Bringing in someone like Wallmark throws off the dynamic.

The storybook ending here is that Wallmark somehow plays well with Skinner, allowing us to get rid of Ryan or at least reduce him to 4th line minutes while we wait for Kruger to rise from the dead. If Wallmark can't do that, and in relatively short order, we're up **** creek as far as lineup construction and in-game line matching.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Wallmark would work "well" with Skinner because skins makes no one better. Hence why the 35 goal scorer is on the "3rd line" with an ahler and an old guy.

the question is, is wallmark better defensively than ryan? stronger on the boards? not as prone to brainfarts? I've seen nothing to indicate a solid negatory.

i can't wait for Friday, pitt will put the thrill on the 3rd line. The kessel vs ryan showdown! get hype!!

 

[tarheelhockey]

BTW, the deck chairs thing isn’t wrong. We started the season with one good NHL’er at center, then two guys who were NHL’ers but not great at it, and one guy who’s a replacement level player. Now we’re down to one good, one not-great, and two replacement level. The order of the lines and distribution of minutes can only cover up so much for the absolute lack of talent that we are putting on the ice at the most important forward position.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Ryan hasn’t been hard matched with Skinner in a while, and during that time Skinner magically found his scoring touch. They hadn’t figured in on a goal together since before the all-star break.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Don't buy it Tarheel. If Peters has shown anything in his time here, it's the willingness to change up lines when things aren't working mid game. To say there's no flexibility doesn't hold water. Ryan wasn't working with Skinner last night. His CF%, Rel CF%, SCF%, High Danger SCF%, etc.. were all the WORST for forwards on the team. He wasn't generating any offense, wasn't stopping the opposition from generating offense, and was directly responsible for a terrible turn-over that lead to the 2nd goal. If that had been another player in his role, Peters would have stapled him to the bench or dropped him to the 4th line. We've seen him do with with guys like Lindholm multiple times.

There have been more than a few games where Ryan wasn't matched with Skinner.

I do agree there aren't many great options when it comes to this line-up (deck chairs comment), but that doesn't mean there aren't any options. It's over and Wallmark not getting much playing time isn't the biggest problem on the team, not by a longshot. Just makes me question some of Peter's decision making process.

 

[JCLA]

What's worse is we had a lineup that worked pretty much to the tune of 5 goals while looking dangerous for the most part before being switched in the 3rd and it hasn't even been revisited yet.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

In fairness, we played a couple of lesser teams and teams that we aren't competing with (western conf) when we were scoring more. They weren't playing as tight of a game nor clogging up the neutral zone like the Devils and Islanders (surprisingly) did. They clogged up the neutral zone, packed it in on defense and waiting to pounce on Canes errors.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Ryan hasn’t been hard matched with Skinner in a while, and during that time Skinner magically found his scoring touch. They hadn’t figured in on a goal together since before the all-star break.

Yep, those were the "line blender" games where everyone played with everyone for a while, and people freaked out about that instead.

During those games, Skinner gradually gravitated back to playing with #7 after breaking a 5-game scoreless slump while on the ice with... Ryan.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Don't buy it Tarheel. If Peters has shown anything in his time here, it's the willingness to change up lines when things aren't working mid game. To say there's no flexibility doesn't hold water. Ryan wasn't working with Skinner last night. His CF%, Rel CF%, SCF%, High Danger SCF%, etc.. were all the WORST for forwards on the team. He wasn't generating any offense, wasn't stopping the opposition from generating offense, and was directly responsible for a terrible turn-over that lead to the 2nd goal. If that had been another player in his role, Peters would have stapled him to the bench or dropped him to the 4th line. We've seen him do with with guys like Lindholm multiple times.

There have been more than a few games where Ryan wasn't matched with Skinner.

I do agree there aren't many great options when it comes to this line-up (deck chairs comment), but that doesn't mean there aren't any options. It's over and Wallmark not getting much playing time isn't the biggest problem on the team, not by a longshot. Just makes me question some of Peter's decision making process.

OK, so let's go to the alternate universe where Bill Peters takes an AHL'er who has 1 career game playing more than 15:00 in this league, and gives him 20:00 on a top-six line in a must-win game.

There's a good chance we don't even get the 1 point that game. There's a good chance people are shouting "line blender" and blaming Peters for putting young players in a position to fail.

It's a catch-22. He's got two AHL level players (Ryan and Wallmark) to work with, and people want him to get results from them in the NHL. It just doesn't work that way... the players simply aren't good enough (or to be fair, they're not well-rounded enough) to do the things we're asking from them. Whoever's in that second center spot after Staal is getting thrown to the dogs, because they're going to be in way over their heads against an actual NHL caliber opponent.

 

[NotOpie]

The other option is to put Wallmark, a guy with 3 points in 13 career NHL games, in between Skinner and Williams. Maybe he is actually a better player than Ryan, but you can see why a coach would be hesitant to do something like that in an absolutely critical game.

Any other player on this team not named Derek Ryan (or maybe Sebastian Aho or Jordan Staal) would have found himself on the 4th line and/or stapled to the bench given Ryan's performance yesterday (or heck, for that matter, over the last 3 or 4 or 10 games). He has been horrible....not just getting out muscled, he's been sloppy with the puck, made poor passes, and made downright piss poor decisions with the puck. The question wasn't "should we give the 4th line more minutes", the question was, should we give the kid minutes in place of Derek f***ing Ryan. Should we give the kid, whose an integral part of a pretty deadly power play down in Charlotte, Derek f***ing Ryan's PP time....should we maybe make a tweak, where we put a kid who is defensively responsible with a line that wouldn't hurt having that....should we put a guy who is known for his playmaking prowess and not afraid to park his skinny ass in front of the net, on a line with a couple of guys who can mostly put the puck on net....I don't know....call me crazy but a team that scores 4 goals in it's last 9 periods, probably shouldn't continue to do the same things and expect different results (because the LA game was a pure anomaly).

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

C'mon Tarheel. Where did I ever suggest he should have thrown Wallmark out there for 20 min? I never did. I said he could have easily played him a few more minutes than the 4:28 he did, given how poorly Ryan was playing and how the team wasn't scoring. You've been arguing that there's no way he could, his hands were tied, catch-22, etc... and that just doesn't hold water.

I agree, I would NOT expect him to play Wallmark 20 minutes. Heck, not even 15 minutes, but to say that he couldn't find a few more minutes when the team scored 1 fluke goal in 58 minutes and Ryan was abysmal, doesn't compute and is inconsistent with Peter's own messages. As I said earlier, if Lindy played like that and made that flub that cost a goal, Peters would have no issue stapling his ass to the 4th line.

Anyhow, I've said my piece.

 

[cptjeff]

BTW, the deck chairs thing isn’t wrong. We started the season with one good NHL’er at center, then two guys who were NHL’ers but not great at it, and one guy who’s a replacement level player. Now we’re down to one good, one not-great, and two replacement level. The order of the lines and distribution of minutes can only cover up so much for the absolute lack of talent that we are putting on the ice at the most important forward position.

Except we also have Lindholm, who is the second best center on this team, playing on the goddamn wing. Peters has more options than he thinks he does.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

If you don't intend to give the AHL kids serious ice time, then don't bring them up. It's that simple. If Sheltering Kids and Gritty Vets and Defense are so important, then there was no reason to send Kruger down in the first place.

I get that we're still fighting for a playoff spot -- but a 5% shooting percentage isn't cutting it. Put some kids out there who can shoot the damned puck, and let the chips fall where they will.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Any other player on this team not named Derek Ryan (or maybe Sebastian Aho or Jordan Staal) would have found himself on the 4th line and/or stapled to the bench given Ryan's performance yesterday (or heck, for that matter, over the last 3 or 4 or 10 games). He has been horrible....not just getting out muscled, he's been sloppy with the puck, made poor passes, and made downright piss poor decisions with the puck. The question wasn't "should we give the 4th line more minutes", the question was, should we give the kid minutes in place of Derek ****ing Ryan. Should we give the kid, whose an integral part of a pretty deadly power play down in Charlotte, Derek ****ing Ryan's PP time....should we maybe make a tweak, where we put a kid who is defensively responsible with a line that wouldn't hurt having that....should we put a guy who is known for his playmaking prowess and not afraid to park his skinny ass in front of the net, on a line with a couple of guys who can mostly put the puck on net....I don't know....call me crazy but a team that scores 4 goals in it's last 9 periods, probably shouldn't continue to do the same things and expect different results (because the LA game was a pure anomaly).

And what happens when that kid gets abused for a hat trick going the other way? You're going to tell him to buck up, this won't affect organizational decisions going forward? Tell the fans not to worry about it, we'll get 'em next time?

I think you're seriously underestimating the consequences of putting a completely green rookie centerman into the top-6 of a crucial game, let alone the consequences that the coach and GM have to face if it blows up. NHL promotions don't work that way, a guy doesn't just instantly leapfrog the entire lineup because he proved he can score against AHL'ers.

 

[Breakdowns]

The more things change, the more they stay the same? This season (to date) vs. last season on some stats:

	This	Last
Record (Point %)	0.53	0.53
GF/GP	2.65	2.59
Rank	26th	20th
GA/GP	2.95	2.8
Rank	14th	18th
SF/GP	34.4	30.4
Rank	4th	14th
SA/GP	28.8	28.3
Rank	1st	5th
Save%	0.898	0.901
Rank	30th	26th
PP%	19.0%	17.7%
Rank	20th	21st
PK%	79.7%	84.2%
Rank	18th	6th
FOW%	53.6%	53.1%
Rank	1st	4th

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Our Save% is somehow even worse. Darling is just that bad. f***.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

And what happens when that kid gets abused for a hat trick going the other way? You're going to tell him to buck up, this won't affect organizational decisions going forward? Tell the fans not to worry about it, we'll get 'em next time?

I think you're seriously underestimating the consequences of putting a completely green rookie centerman into the top-6 of a crucial game, let alone the consequences that the coach and GM have to face if it blows up. NHL promotions don't work that way, a guy doesn't just instantly leapfrog the entire lineup because he proved he can score against AHL'ers.

On other teams, NHL promotions frequently work exactly that way. Usually against us.