Big trade or fire the coach first?

[Blue Shakehead]

I really REALLY don't get the Chevy hate. I can at least see where people who want Noel gone are coming from but Chevy has done a good job so far.

This just screams to me that people are part of the "WHY DIDN'T WE TRADE 5 FIRST ROUND PICKS FOR VANEK!!!!!!!!" crowd.All the people mentioned above that failed were on very short contracts. They were a stop gap essentially. This had a bare cupboard when it moved here. How are you supposed to start making blockbuster trades when you have nothing to send the other way?As for Noel's extension. It was ONE year and it was what a lot of people (myself included) expected.

Nobody is saying to trade 5 picks for Vanek. Thats complete twaddle.

Here's what doesn't add up to me: many fans here say we have to judge Chevy through long-term 5 year process of building through the draft, stocking the prospect cupboard, slow and steady. Thats a tacit admission to not really making significant waves to improving the NHL roster. Judge Chevy Long term.

OK, so no real improvements to the roster, but judge coach on the short term basis? The coach who has had his teams about a week from the playoffs in both years that were predicted to 14th or 15th in the East ?

As for making trades with "nothing" that didn't seem to be a huge problem for Rick Dudley, who landed Byfuglien, Ladd, Wheeler, Stuart all for a bag of beans.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

I really REALLY don't get the Chevy hate. I can at least see where people who want Noel gone are coming from but Chevy has done a good job so far.

This just screams to me that people are part of the "WHY DIDN'T WE TRADE 5 FIRST ROUND PICKS FOR VANEK!!!!!!!!" crowd.

All the people mentioned above that failed were on very short contracts. They were a stop gap essentially. This had a bare cupboard when it moved here. How are you supposed to start making blockbuster trades when you have nothing to send the other way?

As for Noel's extension. It was ONE year and it was what a lot of people (myself included) expected.

This is almost as bad as 90% of the callers into 1290.

"WE NEED TO FIRE THE GM BECAUSE HE DIDN'T DO **** ALL TO HELP THE TEAM!"

"Well what moves would you have made that you think he should have?"

"Well I don't know. I was thinking maybe about moving Seto to the 4th line."

"Right but who else can be brought in for the right price?"

"I dunno I had some names before but I forgot them"

THERE!

THAT'S THE CRAP WE ARE SPEWING AS FANS!Disgusting!

Wait a minute. You are disgusted by the crap being spewed by a hypothetical caller in a make-believe conversation on 1290? Here's a tip:

If you are making up fake callers / conversations, maybe try making one up that doesn't disgust you? Or you could just debate the things I'm actually saying as opposed to comparing me to some dummy that you invented in your mind who says idiotic things for the sole purposes of you winning an argument.

 

[Jet]

Chevy has done a great job IMHO.

People too often look at the immediate product on the ice and blame/ praise the GM. Often times, though, his predecessor has had big impact on that roster.

When I see what this organization had, very top to very bottom when they arrived in Winnipeg, and I look at it now, I see marked improvement in many areas, specifically our scoring depth, and our organizational and prospect depth.

For the very short term that Cheveldayoff has had (in terms of an organizational building timeline) he has actually done quite a lot.


Sure, Chevy could 'sell the farm' to have a little short term success and make himself look good but the damage he would be doing to, say, the 2018 Jets would be felt. We'd end up like the Calgary Flames. Forever in mediocrity.

And, for the record, the org could be as cheap as hell right now. They could have not bothered getting Jokinen, Seto, Frolik. They could have just hovered near the bottom of the cap and waited till we were closer to contention but they realize the value in always trying to be as good as you can, WITHOUT sacrificing future development.

I think the Jets are bang on with their philosophy and are trying to build a winner that is sustainable, like a Detroit, for instance.

 

[surixon]

I wonder if Versteg could be had. He'd give this team another legit top 6-9 forward.

We could run:

LLS
Kane-Olli-Wheeler
Frolik-Scheifele-Versteg.

That's is a very solid two-way top 9.

Wed have to unload some salary though. Maybe Stuart and Thorborn along with some mid range picks and a lesser prospect.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Nobody is saying to trade 5 picks for Vanek. Thats complete twaddle.

Here's what doesn't add up to me: many fans here say we have to judge Chevy through long-term 5 year process of building through the draft, stocking the prospect cupboard, slow and steady. Thats a tacit admission to not really making significant waves to improving the NHL roster. Judge Chevy Long term.

OK, so no real improvements to the roster, but judge coach on the short term basis? The coach who has had his teams about a week from the playoffs in both years that were predicted to 14th or 15th in the East ?

As for making trades with "nothing" that didn't seem to be a huge problem for Rick Dudley, who landed Byfuglien, Ladd, Wheeler, Stuart all for a bag of beans.

How has their been no improvements to the roster?

We have pushed out all of the useless players you mentioned previously and replaced them with better personnel.

Bringing in Seto and Frolik to replace Welwood and Antropov is a major upgrade in my opinion. While the results haven't been there yet, no one can say that those 2 are not an upgrade over who has left.

As for the trades with Chicago. Dudley was able to take advantage of a team that was stuck against the cap. Their hands were tied so lets not act like he was some silver tongue that walked on water.

Here's the Buff trade:

Byfuglien, along with D Brent Sopel, F Ben Eager and F Akim Aliu, are heading to Atlanta in exchange for the Thrashers' first round pick (24th overall) in the 2010 NHL Entry Draft, the 54th pick, and forwards Marty Reasoner, Jeremy Morin, and Joey Crabb.

Mix and match the players as you like but Atlanta gave up a first and second round pick along with prospects for that package. Buff being the main piece coming back, was coming off a astounding 34 point season. His move to D has shown that he can be an allstar at that position but it's not like there was a huge bidding war for Buff at that time.

Now Ladd:

For Ladd, who was a restricted free agent, the Blackhawks acquired defenceman Ivan Vishnevskiy and a second-round pick in 2011.

Andrew Ladd was coming off an AMAZING 38 point season and we were able to swoop in a snag him by giving up a first round pick prospect along with a 2nd round pick. He has flourished since coming to a team that can provide first line minutes but, once again, he was a 3rd line player on a very strong team that needed to offload salary.

Wheeler and Stuart:

In February of 2011, the Atlanta Thrashers made a trade that sent Rich Peverley to the Boston Bruins along with Boris Valabik. In return, the Thrashers received Blake Wheeler and Mark Stuart.

At the time, Rich Peverly was a surprise to a lot of people. He was a waiver wire pickup that played pretty well for the organization. I am still surprised at how well this trade worked for the Jets in hindsight however when you look at what Wheeler was doing in Boston, you can see why they traded him. He had a good first year and the regressed each year after that. While the trade worked very well for us in the end, it wasn't some massive blockbuster that Dudley pulled down from the gods.


In 2 cases, we took advantage of a team against the cap. In the last case, we picked up a player who was on the downswing.

I really would like to know what moves you would like to see happen now.

Do we trade a D-man?
Do we trade Scheifele?
Do we trade draft picks?

Also, if Dudley was such a great GM, why is he playing a backup role in Montreal?

 

[GoJetsGo55]

[/B]

Wait a minute. You are disgusted by the crap being spewed by a hypothetical caller in a make-believe conversation on 1290? Here's a tip:

If you are making up fake callers / conversations, maybe try making one up that doesn't disgust you? Or you could just debate the things I'm actually saying as opposed to comparing me to some dummy that you invented in your mind who says idiotic things for the sole purposes of you winning an argument.

That wasn't directed directly at you. It's more venting my frustrations towards the fanbase as a whole in these situations. As for making up a caller....listen to 1290....I think I did a pretty good job a summarizing what most of the callers were spewing today.

Can you believe that someone even brought up buying out Enstroms contract?

 

[Guerzy]

Chevy has done a great job IMHO.

People too often look at the immediate product on the ice and blame/ praise the GM. Often times, though, his predecessor has had big impact on that roster.

When I see what this organization had, very top to very bottom when they arrived in Winnipeg, and I look at it now, I see marked improvement in many areas, specifically our scoring depth, and our organizational and prospect depth.

For the very short term that Cheveldayoff has had (in terms of an organizational building timeline) he has actually done quite a lot.


Sure, Chevy could 'sell the farm' to have a little short term success and make himself look good but the damage he would be doing to, say, the 2018 Jets would be felt. We'd end up like the Calgary Flames. Forever in mediocrity.

And, for the record, the org could be as cheap as hell right now. They could have not bothered getting Jokinen, Seto, Frolik. They could have just hovered near the bottom of the cap and waited till we were closer to contention but they realize the value in always trying to be as good as you can, WITHOUT sacrificing future development.

I think the Jets are bang on with their philosophy and are trying to build a winner that is sustainable, like a Detroit, for instance.

I agree with you, Jet. Chevy's work isn't showing a lot right now in the standings, but I do really like his approach and what he's done thus far in building the prospect cupboard up.

I personally like Kevin Cheveldayoff and am confident he will indeed take this team and organization to better days. It's going to take some time, but I think we'll get there.

 

[peg]

I agree with you, Jet. Chevy's work isn't showing a lot right now in the standings, but I do really like his approach and what he's done thus far in building the prospect cupboard up.

I personally like Kevin Cheveldayoff and am confident he will indeed take this team and organization to better days. It's going to take some time, but I think we'll get there.

I'm also in this camp. I love what Chevy has done and how he has created so much more depth in the system. I also really like the current roster that he has locked up. My thoughts on our coaching are quite different.

Maybe I am too much of a fan and have unrealistic expectations from our current roster. I don't think this is the case. I have seen Buff be absolutely dominant on the ice. I have also seen a bunch of his brain cramps. I want to see a more consistent effort from him as I believe he is capable of much more domination with much fewer brain cramps. Can a different coach get more out of Buff than Noel?

I have seen Sheif skate strongly, shoot brilliantly and pass effectively. I have also seen him try to get to the tough places and usually end up getting hammered and end up in a heap on the ice. Can a different coach let Sheif play to his strengths and shelter him from what makes him vulnerable?

I see a stoic Noel behind the bench, having little interaction with the players except to occasionally chew one out for a mistake. Can a coach that is an advocate for our very young players, giving them a pat on the back when they make a good play, get more out of them more consistently than Noel?

We have an exciting team and it is only going to get more exciting when the likes of Petan and Morrissey crack the lineup. I really like what Chevy has done. Noel???

 

[Blue Shakehead]

How has their been no improvements to the roster?

We have pushed out all of the useless players you mentioned previously and replaced them with better personnel.

Bringing in Seto and Frolik to replace Welwood and Antropov is a major upgrade in my opinion. While the results haven't been there yet, no one can say that those 2 are not an upgrade over who has left.

As for the trades with Chicago. Dudley was able to take advantage of a team that was stuck against the cap. Their hands were tied so lets not act like he was some silver tongue that walked on water.

Here's the Buff trade:

Byfuglien, along with D Brent Sopel, F Ben Eager and F Akim Aliu, are heading to Atlanta in exchange for the Thrashers' first round pick (24th overall) in the 2010 NHL Entry Draft, the 54th pick, and forwards Marty Reasoner, Jeremy Morin, and Joey Crabb.

Mix and match the players as you like but Atlanta gave up a first and second round pick along with prospects for that package. Buff being the main piece coming back, was coming off a astounding 34 point season. His move to D has shown that he can be an allstar at that position but it's not like there was a huge bidding war for Buff at that time.

Now Ladd:

For Ladd, who was a restricted free agent, the Blackhawks acquired defenceman Ivan Vishnevskiy and a second-round pick in 2011.

Andrew Ladd was coming off an AMAZING 38 point season and we were able to swoop in a snag him by giving up a first round pick prospect along with a 2nd round pick. He has flourished since coming to a team that can provide first line minutes but, once again, he was a 3rd line player on a very strong team that needed to offload salary.

Wheeler and Stuart:

In February of 2011, the Atlanta Thrashers made a trade that sent Rich Peverley to the Boston Bruins along with Boris Valabik. In return, the Thrashers received Blake Wheeler and Mark Stuart.

At the time, Rich Peverly was a surprise to a lot of people. He was a waiver wire pickup that played pretty well for the organization. I am still surprised at how well this trade worked for the Jets in hindsight however when you look at what Wheeler was doing in Boston, you can see why they traded him. He had a good first year and the regressed each year after that. While the trade worked very well for us in the end, it wasn't some massive blockbuster that Dudley pulled down from the gods.


In 2 cases, we took advantage of a team against the cap. In the last case, we picked up a player who was on the downswing.

I really would like to know what moves you would like to see happen now.

Do we trade a D-man?
Do we trade Scheifele?
Do we trade draft picks?

Also, if Dudley was such a great GM, why is he playing a backup role in Montreal?

Dudley wasn't operating in a vacuum. This idea that winning the Blackhawks trades for Ladd and Buff should be discounted because Chicago was up against the cap would have merit if Chicago and Atlanta were the only teams in the league.

There are 28 other teams that could have "taken advantage of Chicago". They didn't, he did. They all would in hindsight. Credit: Dudley.

As for the Boston trade, WHAT? Wheeler was a #5 overall draft pick and high end prospect. Wheeler was getting bottom 6 minutes, with no PP playing with a bunch of meat grinders on a stacked Boston team. Turns out, Boston wanted a role player, and low and behold Rick Dudley was there to answer the phone. Credit: Dudley.

I finally started to buy into the whole "Chevy deserves time" movement, UNTIL I seen the same patient posters demanding Noel to be fired 6 games into the season.

What would I do? Well, I would use our greatest strengths (RHD) to shore up our weak ones (Center, LHD). I would also be looking to take a big shot at Reimer (or someone comparable) to address the weakest link on this team.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Dudley wasn't operating in a vacuum. This idea that winning the Blackhawks trades for Ladd and Buff should be discounted because Chicago was up against the cap would have merit if Chicago and Atlanta were the only teams in the league.

There are 28 other teams that could have "taken advantage of Chicago". They didn't, he did. They all would in hindsight. Credit: Dudley.

I am 100% sure that there were other offers that came in for those players and that Dudley came in with the best offer. What I was saying that is Chicago's hand was forced in trading those players so they didn't exactly have the ability to say no to a trade. Are you saying that the return at that time would have been the same if other teams knew that Chicago's hand wasn't being forced in that situation?

Also don't take both players point totals at that point in time. Ladd is a 30 goal scorer and Buff is a 50 point D-man RIGHT NOW. They were not the same players back then.

As for the Boston trade, WHAT? Wheeler was a #5 overall draft pick and high end prospect. Wheeler was getting bottom 6 minutes, with no PP playing with a bunch of meat grinders on a stacked Boston team. Turns out, Boston wanted a role player, and low and behold Rick Dudley was there to answer the phone. Credit: Dudley.

Blake Wheeler was a #5 overall pick who refused to play for the team that drafted him. He was 23 at the time of that trade and, as I said before, was trending downward points wise. He still had value but his draft position meant NOTHING at that time. Bostons RW depth was nothing special so it's not like he was FORCED into the bottom 6. He played himself into that spot.

I finally started to buy into the whole "Chevy deserves time" movement, UNTIL I seen the same patient posters demanding Noel to be fired 6 games into the season.

What would I do? Well, I would use our greatest strengths (RHD) to shore up our weak ones (Center, LHD). I would also be looking to take a big shot at Reimer (or someone comparable) to address the weakest link on this team.

So lets say we trade a RD today. We now have Adam Pardy playing 2nd line RD until Trouba comes back. That's a sure fire way to get us back into contention. Posta and Redmond are indjured. We don't have the depth at that spot to make a move at the moment.

As for Reimer, what could we possibly give up right now that would entice Toronto to let him go?.....especially after they said that the battle for the starting job is healthy for the organization.

As for someone comparable? Who? You're the GM now since you're qualified to call Chevy incompetent.....who do we trade for? Who are we giving up? What are your short term and long term goals? Are we trading a 1st this year? We are in the bottom so you know that it could be a very high pick. Sort out a list of comparable goalies, what you think we would need to give up for each one, and tell me how that makes us a better team.

Also, I will ask again: If Dudley is the second coming of Jesus, why is he playing second fiddle in Montreal? 5 teams have changed their GM since he was let go. Why did they not bring him in?

 

[Blue Shakehead]

So lets say we trade a RD today. We now have Adam Pardy playing 2nd line RD until Trouba comes back. That's a sure fire way to get us back into contention. Posta and Redmond are indjured. We don't have the depth at that spot to make a move at the moment.

As for Reimer, what could we possibly give up right now that would entice Toronto to let him go?.....especially after they said that the battle for the starting job is healthy for the organization.

As for someone comparable? Who? You're the GM now since you're qualified to call Chevy incompetent.....who do we trade for? Who are we giving up? What are your short term and long term goals? Are we trading a 1st this year? We are in the bottom so you know that it could be a very high pick. Sort out a list of comparable goalies, what you think we would need to give up for each one, and tell me how that makes us a better team.

Also, I will ask again: If Dudley is the second coming of Jesus, why is he playing second fiddle in Montreal? 5 teams have changed their GM since he was let go. Why did they not bring him in?

Not saying we would trade a RHD, TODAY! Sheesh. We'd wait until Trouba is back from injury, obviously.

As for goalies, if you sort through my posts you'd see that I was calling for us to upgrade goaltending every single offseason. I really wanted them to go after Khudobin or Greiss. Our options at Goal would be a lot easier if we werent shackled to that contract your boy Chevy signed Pavelec to,

There are 30 GM jobs in the NHL and they don't come up too often, ask Brian Burke. Actually, Dudley was scooped by other NHL teams BEFORE Burke was. That one of the other 29 teams didn't immediately fire its GM to hire Dudley as replacement is not an indictment of Rick Dudley.

 

[Warhead77]

Neither. Just stop "doing" things and let the team become a team. The players are good, the coach is fine, they clearly can play with the best teams in the conference (St. Louis, Colorado, Los Angeles) ... just be patient.

Maybe the coach should limit his habit of line juggling so that the players can truely "become a team" as you say.

 

[allan5oh]

We were scouting the hell out of buffalo before the vanek trade, I guess we were outbid

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Not saying we would trade a RHD, TODAY! Sheesh. We'd wait until Trouba is back from injury, obviously.

As for goalies, if you sort through my posts you'd see that I was calling for us to upgrade goaltending every single offseason. I really wanted them to go after Khudobin or Greiss. Our options at Goal would be a lot easier if we werent shackled to that contract your boy Chevy signed Pavelec to,

There are 30 GM jobs in the NHL and they don't come up too often, ask Brian Burke. Actually, Dudley was scooped by other NHL teams BEFORE Burke was. That one of the other 29 teams didn't immediately fire its GM to hire Dudley as replacement is not an indictment of Rick Dudley.

Ok we are somewhat getting somewhere now.
We have Greiss and Khudobin on the radar.
So, now, what are we giving up to acquire those players?
What are the organizational needs of the teams that we will be targeting and what do we have in reserve that can realistically be dealt to match those needs?

Also, Chevy is not "my boy". I just think that he's done a very good job so far. Some people mistake inaction and paitience for incompetence however I will take the guy who stands pat signing our RFA's over a guy like Nonis who will go out and give Clarkson the worst contract in the NHL.

Essentially, ownership came out and said that this is a team that will build through the draft and then after 2 years people are screaming at Chevy going "WTF! WHY ARE WE BUILDING THROUGH THE DRAFT!!!!!"

 

[bazaaa*]

Mason Raymond 10pts in 13 games.
Grabovski 10pts in 12 games.
Burmistrov 19pts in 22 games.

We wouldn't need to be trading for anyone right now if Chevy would have plugged the whole on the third line.

 

[Guerzy]

We were scouting the hell out of buffalo before the vanek trade, I guess we were outbid

I read that, that's interesting. Elliotte Friedman said we had 3 scouts at Vanek's last game, perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not.

 

[bazaaa*]

We were scouting the hell out of buffalo before the vanek trade, I guess we were outbid

I doubt that's the kind of move we would make.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Maybe the coach should limit his habit of line juggling so that the players can truely "become a team" as you say.

THIS! 1000X THIS! I like Noel and I think he can be a good coach but there are certain things he does that just bug the hell out of me. One has always been CONSTANT line juggling. The most recent is his benching of Peluso over and over again! The guy has been playing good.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

Personally, I'm really looking forward to seeing the cap go up: with the core of the team locked down, and their salary essentially set for a good number of years, the Jets will gain valuable cap space to go after some interesting players WITHOUT giving up the farm regarding prospects, etc.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

We were scouting the hell out of buffalo before the vanek trade, I guess we were outbid

I read that, that's interesting. Elliotte Friedman said we had 3 scouts at Vanek's last game, perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not.

I doubt that's the kind of move we would make.

If not Vanek, who, I wonder?

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Mason Raymond 10pts in 13 games.
Grabovski 10pts in 12 games.
Burmistrov 19pts in 22 games.

We wouldn't need to be trading for anyone right now if Chevy would have plugged the whole on the third line.

The Burmi situation is what it is however how do we know that Chevy didn't offer a contract to these other guys and they said thanks but no thanks?

Edit: Also, and correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Grabo sign before we sorted out our RFA situation. Would we rather be in a spot where we had to trade Wheeler but gained Grabo?

 

[Guerzy]

If not Vanek, who, I wonder?

Looking at their roster, I'm not really sure..

 

[surixon]

Not saying we would trade a RHD, TODAY! Sheesh. We'd wait until Trouba is back from injury, obviously.

As for goalies, if you sort through my posts you'd see that I was calling for us to upgrade goaltending every single offseason. I really wanted them to go after Khudobin or Greiss. Our options at Goal would be a lot easier if we werent shackled to that contract your boy Chevy signed Pavelec to,

There are 30 GM jobs in the NHL and they don't come up too often, ask Brian Burke. Actually, Dudley was scooped by other NHL teams BEFORE Burke was. That one of the other 29 teams didn't immediately fire its GM to hire Dudley as replacement is not an indictment of Rick Dudley.

While I have been an advocate of upgrading the goaltending I fail to see what Greiss and khudoldin bring to the table that would be an upgrade. Neither has proven really anything in the league so far and it doesn't look like either have made impacts for their new teams. I believe that if Pavelic has a bad year this year the team will look for an upgrade next year. They likely gave him this year as a chance to rebound.

I am quite happy with how Chevy has stocked the cupbourd in his three drafts. I would entertain since trading our first this summer for a goaltending upgrade. I'm thinking Bernier or Reimer.

Imo Buff will be traded at some point this year or in the summer to plug some additional holes!

 

[Jet]

Dudley wasn't operating in a vacuum. This idea that winning the Blackhawks trades for Ladd and Buff should be discounted because Chicago was up against the cap would have merit if Chicago and Atlanta were the only teams in the league.

There are 28 other teams that could have "taken advantage of Chicago". They didn't, he did. They all would in hindsight. Credit: Dudley.

As for the Boston trade, WHAT? Wheeler was a #5 overall draft pick and high end prospect. Wheeler was getting bottom 6 minutes, with no PP playing with a bunch of meat grinders on a stacked Boston team. Turns out, Boston wanted a role player, and low and behold Rick Dudley was there to answer the phone. Credit: Dudley.

I finally started to buy into the whole "Chevy deserves time" movement, UNTIL I seen the same patient posters demanding Noel to be fired 6 games into the season.

What would I do? Well, I would use our greatest strengths (RHD) to shore up our weak ones (Center, LHD). I would also be looking to take a big shot at Reimer (or someone comparable) to address the weakest link on this team.

I really do not see how these two things correlate, though.

1> The timelines for a GM and coach are VERY different

2> Those of us praising Chevy's approach and wanting a coaching change want it because of the bizarre roster and in game coaching decisions Noel makes, and the fact that this team has the same problems and makes the same mistakes despite Noel having roster improvements and lots of time to correct these problems. A coach should have his team playing the way he wants after the first year. We see stupid decisions with the roster, player usage. We've seen a terrible PP despite having more than enough capable players to use. Then the coach throws his players and GM under the bus when what they needed was a better system and some confidence.

I was always willing to give Noel the benefit of the doubt because he never really had a chance to start the season correctly, with the move in year one and the lockout last year. He had a full rookie camp, TC and preseason this year and still, the team looked lost starting the season. That HAS to be on the coach.

I will say, with the way the team has played the last 5 games, I am willing to put the torch and pitchfork away. They are playing more the way I was expecting they would. They are aggressive, forechecking, and fired up. The problems with goalie and roster management remains in my eyes, but the Jets game has vastly improved. Now if they could just stop shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[surixon]

If not Vanek, who, I wonder?

They have always seemed to like Stafford, so maybe they are trying to make another play for him.